Protestants in a Jewish Wrapper?

[Harpazo]

I have been reading about the self-styled “Messianic Jews” lately. For the most part they are disenchanted Protestants, or disenchanted Jewish converts to Evangelicalism. To me it is a complete fabrication, with no connection to Apostolic Christianity (whether it be Orthodoxy or Catholicism). However, I want to see what you, the fine people of CAF have to say about it.

It looks like a way for people to want to be Jewish with some pop-evangelicalism mixed in. From my Orthodox viewpoint, I can see the Jewish roots of Orthodoxy and understand that the early Church developed in its praxis, moving away from Judaism. For example, the Jewish Rabbi’s have a blessing that they make with their hands and pray over the congregants. The Orthodox priests do this, too. Just as the Jews are taught to bow when they are blessed, we do, too.

So what do you think about Messianic Judaism? Is it legitimate, ridiculous, blasphemous, silly? If so, why?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[allischalmers]

Messianic Jews are simply people of Hebrew decent that have become Christians (like me). There are Jewish Catholic Christians (don’t you know) and Jewish Protestant Christians.

 

[Harpazo]

Messianic Jews are simply people of Hebrew decent that have become Christians (like me). There are Jewish Catholic Christians (don’t you know) and Jewish Protestant Christians.

Good evening allischalmers!

Yes, ethnic. I am Italian, but I am also Orthodox. I was Protestant, then I was Catholic. Did that make me a Protestant Catholic? I was Catholic, but now I am Orthodox? Does that make me a Roman Catholic Orthodox?

But is not Christianity the fulfillment of Judaism? Aren’t all Christians therefore in some sense Messianic Jews? Aren’t we supposed to be celebrating Christian feasts? I am talking about this movement that is somehow a mixture between synagogue Judaism and Evangelicalism. It looks like a big interpolation of Judaism into some sect of Protestantism.

Does anyone else have an opinion?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[dzheremi]

I would tend to agree with you here, Andrew. Granted, I am not in the least bit “Hebraic”, so perhaps there is something to the argument of keeping the culture of the Hebrew people (so much as is possible) while at the same time embracing Christ, just as we hopefully would not require a Japanese, Rom, Inuit, or (insert ethno-national group here) person to abandon their culture upon coming to Christianity. As you have written, there is quite a bit in common in the practice of the two Jewish and Christian communiites. Given that, I could authentically “Hebrew Christians” as a legitimate expression of orthodox Christian faith, but it’s mostly a hypothetical as the only people I’ve met claiming to be “Messianic Jews” have been those “Jews For Jesus” kooks who are well outside the fold of either community.

 

[Cluny]

Most “Messianic Jews” I’ve met are pop-evangelical wannabees who practice a Judaism that derives more from movies like THE TEN COMMANDMENTS and imagination and less from the Talmud or even the Bible.

Those with any pretense of liturgical forms borrow heavily from the Union Prayer Book, which is American Reform.

The historical Apostolic churches were guided by the Holy Spirit in determining how many of Jewish practices to keep, such as the Churching of Women, Pascha, Penetecost, the Alexandrian (not Jerusalem) Canon, and the like.

 

[Doxiemom]

Messianic Jews see christianity from their uniquely jewish faith, traditions, language, in ways we gentiles can never understand.

They are Jews who accept that the Messiah has come and look forward to His Coming Again.

you cannot remove the jewishness from the Jew of today than you can remove the jewishness form Jesus.

They are completly legitimate.

 

[Lev23]

Given that, I could authentically “Hebrew Christians” as a legitimate expression of orthodox Christian faith, but it’s mostly a hypothetical as the only people I’ve met claiming to be “Messianic Jews” have been those “Jews For Jesus” kooks who are well outside the fold of either community.

“Kooks”? How uncharitable. Jews for Jesus are Christians that also preach Jesus Christ as Messiah to Gentiles. They are peaceful, they work aganist many obstacles in Israel in order to save Jews.

People here boast about “apostolic successsion”, but these Christians(Jews by birth) share alot in common with the first apostles, that they are persecuted by their own, but never giving up. They are called “traitors”, and are not considered Jewish anymore. Like the first apostles, they were considered outside the community and are always trying to be driven out. Judaizers try to slander Jews for Jesus, and even instruct gentiles to follow the Noahide laws. Jews for Jesus preach Jesus Christ to Gentiles for their salvation. They also teach that Gentiles are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

1 Thessolonians 2:14-16
For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

“…and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.”

Myself, I would not be calling these Chrisitans “kooks”

 

[Lev23]

Messianic Jews see christianity from their uniquely jewish faith, traditions, language, in ways we gentiles can never understand.

They are Jews who accept that the Messiah has come and look forward to His Coming Again.

you cannot remove the jewishness from the Jew of today than you can remove the jewishness form Jesus.

They are completly legitimate.

Well said. Outside the Church there are two types of nations, the Jewish nation, and the Gentiles nations. Only in Christ does the Jew and Gentile become one new creation. The Jews who come into the Church still might observe and celebrate the biblical feasts such as Passover, but they do it knowing Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of them, and they celebrate them in His name.

1 Corintians 7:17-20
Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.

 

[Lev23]

I have been reading about the self-styled “Messianic Jews” lately. For the most part they are disenchanted Protestants, or disenchanted Jewish converts to Evangelicalism. To me it is a complete fabrication, with no connection to Apostolic Christianity (whether it be Orthodoxy or Catholicism). However, I want to see what you, the fine people of CAF have to say about it.

I will repeat this for you.

People here boast about “apostolic successsion”, but these Christians(Jews by birth) share alot in common with the first apostles, that they are persecuted by their own, but never giving up. They are called “traitors”, and are not considered Jewish anymore. Like the first apostles, they were considered outside the community and are always trying to be driven out. Judaizers try to slander Jews for Jesus, and even instruct gentiles to follow the Noahide laws. Jews for Jesus preach Jesus Christ to Gentiles for their salvation. They also teach that Gentiles are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

1 Thessolonians 2:14-16
For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years. It is clear that the ones who are Christians(Messianics) have it the worst of Jews. They were even called “meshumad” or apostates by their Jewish brethern in concentration camps.

This is hardly “self-styled”.

 

[Harpazo]

I will repeat this for you.

People here boast about “apostolic successsion”, but these Christians(Jews by birth) share alot in common with the first apostles, that they are persecuted by their own, but never giving up. They are called “traitors”, and are not considered Jewish anymore. Like the first apostles, they were considered outside the community and are always trying to be driven out. Judaizers try to slander Jews for Jesus, and even instruct gentiles to follow the Noahide laws. Jews for Jesus preach Jesus Christ to Gentiles for their salvation. They also teach that Gentiles are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

1 Thessolonians 2:14-16
For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years. It is clear that the ones who are Christians(Messianics) have it the worst of Jews. They were even called “meshumad” or apostates by their Jewish brethern in concentration camps.

I’m sorry to hear that they are being persecuted, and can find solidarity with the early Christians, but any persecuted Christian group can say that. Any religion can say that, too. My point is, “Messianic Jews” can claim solidarity with the Apostles all they want, but it does not make them Apostolic Christians.

After all, Muslims claim to worship the same God as Christians and Jews, but just because they claim it, does not make it so. I’m sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but it really is not.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Lev23]

So what do you think about Messianic Judaism? Is it legitimate, ridiculous, blasphemous, silly? If so, why?

In Christ,
Andrew

Messianic Judaism, like Messianic Christians can mean different things. Usually they are Christians(Jewish by birth) who believe that Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah from the scriptures. Though they might celebrate biblical feast days and other traditions, they believe they are saved by Grace and not by observing the Law or traditions of men. The believe they are in the New Covenant of Grace and not the covenent of the Law of Moses. They teach and rejoice that God has made them one new creation with the Gentiles that come into the Chuch. They see them equal to themselves. These are most definately legitimate Christians.

But like other Churches, there are those Messianics that do mingle Law with Grace, that hold to penalties and rewards for observing special days or new moon feasts. There are some that still hold that Gentiles who come into the Church are still Gentiles. There are some who call themselves Messianic, but do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, they just believe a Messiah is coming.

But grace-based Messianics who believe in Jesus Christ are most certainly Christians.

 

[Lev23]

My point is, “Messianic Jews” can claim solidarity with the Apostles all they want, but it does not make them Apostolic Christians.

They do take the gospel to the Jews on a constant basis, just like the Apostles did. And at all cost, even their lives. They do not put up a church building, write rules and declarations, and leave it at that when it comes to witnessing to the Jews. And like the Apostles, they most definately never persecuted their own for not believing, but were persecuted.

After all, Muslims claim to worship the same God as Christians and Jews, but just because they claim it, does not make it so. I’m sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but it really is not.

In Christ,
Andrew

What does Muslims claim to anything have to do with the subject at hand? The Messianics believe in the one and only Son of God Jesus Christ. The Son of the Father, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel. They believe in the Gospel that the Apostles(their own countrymen) taught of Jesus.

 

[searn77]

In the poll, what do you mean when you use the term “legitimate”?

 

[dzheremi]

“Kooks”? How uncharitable. Jews for Jesus are Christians that also preach Jesus Christ as Messiah to Gentiles. They are peaceful, they work aganist many obstacles in Israel in order to save Jews.

Yes. kooks. I call them like I see them, and since the interaction I have had with this group is limited to campus proselytizers at the university where I took Arabic classes last year, perhaps my experience is not very informative of what the entire organization is about. I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t really care if that is the case. Their silly tracts certainly inspired more disrespect and frivolity towards Christianity on the part of Jews that I knew than any of my individual friendships with Jews did over the same period. I’m not saying that this makes JFJ kooks by definition, but it certainly makes them LOOK like kooks, both to the Jews they are trying to reach and to gentile Christians like me. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that I have any sort of problem with Jewish-background Christians. It’s a problem with the pop evangelism approach found in certain circles more than anything, and that’s not just limited to “Messianic Jews”.

 

[nsper7]

In the poll, what do you mean when you use the term “legitimate”?

Yeah, that’s why I could not actually answer. I believe Messianic Jews fall under the realm of Protestants–in the sense that they are not Catholic or Orthodox–but I don’t think any Protestant group, unless they somehow possess valid Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders, can be said to be “legitimate” (in this sense, I mean a legitimate Church…although the Orthodox are in schism from the Catholic Church since the 11th Century, they possess valid A.S. and H.O. and are thus a Church, most, if not all, Protestant groups lack valid A.S. and H.O. and are thus rightly termed “ecclesial communities”).

 

[Bluegoat]

Some would argue that Jews who become Christians are still bound by Jewish Law, although its application must be modified in light of Christ’s message.

If you read Paul on the Law, he suggests that we are all bound by the Law we know, accept, and are given, whether it is a Gentile and the Law he knows through his conscience, or a Jew and the Law he accepted through his circumcision.

You might think of it similarly to a person who has made a vow of celibacy or to follow a Rule of life. In being made part of that particular covenant of the Law, one would be bound to it, including things like the dietary Laws which most Christians are not bound to.

The CC has not taken this route, but some do see it that way and I don’t think it is totally out to lunch. There is a certain logic behind it that is consistent.

 

[yankee_doodle]

I have been reading about the self-styled “Messianic Jews” lately. For the most part they are disenchanted Protestants, or disenchanted Jewish converts to Evangelicalism. To me it is a complete fabrication, with no connection to Apostolic Christianity (whether it be Orthodoxy or Catholicism). However, I want to see what you, the fine people of CAF have to say about it.

It looks like a way for people to want to be Jewish with some pop-evangelicalism mixed in. From my Orthodox viewpoint, I can see the Jewish roots of Orthodoxy and understand that the early Church developed in its praxis, moving away from Judaism. For example, the Jewish Rabbi’s have a blessing that they make with their hands and pray over the congregants. The Orthodox priests do this, too. Just as the Jews are taught to bow when they are blessed, we do, too.

So what do you think about Messianic Judaism? Is it legitimate, ridiculous, blasphemous, silly? If so, why?

In Christ,
Andrew

Man oh man … I guess there’s a lot of infighting among Christians (if you ask me I’d say who the heck cares, but of course whose gonna ask a guy who thinks religion is stupid).

I’ve seen Messianic Jews evangelizing in Brooklyn before (in Williamsburg right outside the L train on Bedford). They were pretty cool. They asked me if I was Jewish, I said no, they said OK cool god bless (or words to effect). Having been a Christian at one time & involving myself in this debate we’re having in this society about religion, I recognized they were Messianic Jews. I sort felt like I should have asked them some questions, but I didn’t (you know, in New York we always have something interesting to do, so I was on my way to doing it and was sort of in a rush).

Anyways, live and let live that’s what I say (unless of course you harm others).

I understand there’s plenty who disagree with me (and believe they have some sort of divine mandate to militantly push their views on the world), which forces people like me (who would otherwise just like to enjoy life) into fighting back by pushing our views (which after all make so much more sense … all we need to do is reach people before they’re indoctrinated, whereas you guys have to indoctrinate). In fact, in many cases we can even reach the indoctrinated.

My favorite Jesus quote … the truth will set you free

 

[Harpazo]

In the poll, what do you mean when you use the term “legitimate”?

My apologies, I should have clarified. I meant a legitimate Christian Tradition that can make claim to being an “Apostolic Community.” Sorry for the confusion!

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[nsper7]

My apologies, I should have clarified. I meant a legitimate Christian Tradition that can make claim to being an “Apostolic Community.” Sorry for the confusion!

In Christ,
Andrew

What’s an “Apostolic Community” mean though? Does that mean a community with valid Apostolic Succession? If so, then Messianic Jews, and virtually all other Protestant groups, fail on this regard.

 

[Harpazo]

What’s an “Apostolic Community” mean though? Does that mean a community with valid Apostolic Succession? If so, then Messianic Jews, and virtually all other Protestant groups, fail on this regard.

Yes, that’s what I meant. Forgive me, I’m a little tired and my words aren’t flowing quite too well.

While I have a great respect for Jews and their tradition, it seems extremely bizarre for Christians to impose Jewish traditions on themselves and then saying “Aha! We’re just like the Apostles!” I’ll probably get a lot of flack for saying this, but I think it’s delusion.

In Christ,
Andrew