Protestants in the Eastern Churches

  • Thread starter Thread starter LoyalViews
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JPeter said:
The Roman Catholic Church is the True Church. It always has been. This does not imply that it cannot make mistakes or look at a doctrine in the wrong light. Take this from the Augsburg Confession. **Inasmuch, then, as our churches dissent in no article of the faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons, **we pray that Your Imperial Majesty would graciously hear both what has been changed, and what were the reasons why the people were not compelled to observe those abuses against their conscience. 11] Nor should Your Imperial Majesty believe those who, in order to excite the hatred of men against our part, disseminate strange slanders among the people. 12] Having thus excited the minds of good men, they have first given occasion to this controversy, and now endeavor, by the same arts, to increase the discord. 13] For Your Imperial Majesty will undoubtedly find that the form of doctrine and of ceremonies with us is not so intolerable as these ungodly and malicious men represent. 14] Besides, the truth cannot be gathered from common rumors or the revilings of enemies. 15] But it can readily be judged that nothing would serve better to maintain the dignity of ceremonies, and to nourish reverence and pious devotion among the people than if the ceremonies were observed rightly in the churches.
Click to expand...
The Roman Catholic Church is the True Church, it has always been…

The Church is the Body of Christ and Christ is the head. The Church is the bride of Christ.

So there is only one head and one body.👍
 
CopticChristian said:
J,

You have previouly posted as to what you call the “Reformation”…Your post here not “Reformation” rather “Reformations”…

I, a group of like minded people want to cause change. We see a need for change. We want to reform. We gather, we decide and then we reform with the end result that what we reformed is better, in agreement with our purpose.

Here you note that your mind sees not a reform but many reforms and you designate one as Lutheran pointing out that it is a reform that leaves the group “more Catholic”…

There are several points. It indirectly affirms that the OHCAC remains unchanged in so far as you point out that the result of Lutheran Reform creates a situation where that group is more like that from which it reformed? No, from which it departed…it did not reform anything.

The next point is that reform is not one thing it is many and that of course is your understanding…

So if as I pointed out that the Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Head and His body the Church…the manifold wisdom of God is known through the Church…the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church…

What you are saying is that the body departed from the body and the head and changed the body…because if you say that the Lutherans are more Catholic the question is does Christ have two heads and two bodies…or is the body headless…?
Click to expand...
CopticChristian said:
The Roman Catholic Church is the True Church, it has always been…

The Church is the Body of Christ and Christ is the head. The Church is the bride of Christ.

So there is only one head and one body.👍
Click to expand...
Come on Coptic!:rolleyes:
 
LoyalViews said:
So the west had the Protestant “reformation”, Luther objected to the truth and wanted people to believe in his own teachings, but what about in the East? Is there an equivalent to Lutherans…say, only “eastern” style. You know, like “Orthodox protestants” who split from say…the Melkites, or the Maronites?
Click to expand...
For the record, Melkites and Maronites are Catholic. So if a group did split off from either of those 2 Churches, they would be splitting off from Catholicism, not from Orthodoxy.
 
Peter_J said:
For the record, Melkites and Maronites are Catholic. So if a group did split off from either of those 2 Churches, they would be splitting off from Catholicism, not from Orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
But you see, that’s what I meant 😃

Are there any groups that have broken off from the Melkites et al, to form Protestant communited who conducted in an eastern style…a Protestantised Divine Liturgy, etc?

But the thread took off horribly on the wrong topic…so I kept silent 😦
 
LoyalViews said:
But you see, that’s what I meant 😃

Are there any groups that have broken off from the Melkites et al, to form Protestant communited who conducted in an eastern style…a Protestantised Divine Liturgy, etc?

But the thread took off horribly on the wrong topic…so I kept silent 😦
Click to expand...
Thanks for clarifying. I though that you were asking whether there are groups who are to the Orthodox, what Protestants are to Catholics.
 
LoyalViews said:
So the west had the Protestant “reformation”, Luther objected to the truth and wanted people to believe in his own teachings, but what about in the East? Is there an equivalent to Lutherans…say, only “eastern” style. You know, like “Orthodox protestants” who split from say…the Melkites, or the Maronites?
Click to expand...
In this comment I’m going to take quite literally the question whether Orthodoxy has ever experienced a Reformation along the lines of Luther’s Reformation. There have, of course, been very schisms and reformations within Eastern Christianity over the past 2,000 years, but there has never been anything quite like Luther’s Reformation … and, I suggest, there can’t be.

Luther’s Reformation could only have occurred in Western Christianity, with (1) its embrace of the Augustinian understanding of grace and predestination and (2) the language of merit by which to speak of justification. Only within such a structure could Luther’s existential crisis (“Do the works of my life sufficiently merit eternal life?” “Am I justified?” “Am I predestined?” “How do I find a gracious God?” “Does the mercy and love of God directly intend me?” “Am I saved? Am I damned?”) have occurred. It is the combination of Augustinian Anti-Pelagianism and a juridical way of speaking of justification that provided the conditions for Luther’s “perfect storm” of salvific uncertainty. Luther responded to his crisis by rejecting merit and affirming the utter passivity of faith: we are saved by hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even though he made changes to the inherited Augustinianism, he remained within it to the end.

Given that the Eastern tradition neither affirms an Augustinian construal of grace nor employs the language of merit to speak of our relationship with God there simply cannot be within Orthodoxy that kind of crisis of assurance tore apart the Latin Church. Orthodox Christians have other kinds of existential crises, of course, but nothing quite like Luther’s. Hence there cannot be, I propose, a “Lutheran” reformation within Orthodoxy.
 
FrKimel said:
Luther’s Reformation could only have occurred in Western Christianity, with (1) its embrace of the Augustinian understanding of grace and predestination and (2) the language of merit by which to speak of justification. Only within such a structure could Luther’s existential crisis (“Do the works of my life sufficiently merit eternal life?” “Am I justified?” “Am I predestined?” “How do I find a gracious God?” “Does the mercy and love of God directly intend me?” “Am I saved? Am I damned?”) have occurred. It is the combination of Augustinian Anti-Pelagianism and a juridical way of speaking of justification that provided the conditions for Luther’s “perfect storm” of salvific uncertainty. Luther responded to his crisis by rejecting merit and affirming the utter passivity of faith: we are saved by hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even though he made changes to the inherited Augustinianism, he remained within it to the end.
Click to expand...
Isn’t it something what this has evolved into today?
 
Mark_of_Ephesus said:
I see what you are saying, but I think there is still a significant difference in approach.

In Orthodoxy, the fullness of truth is revealed in the uncreated light (glorification). Orthodox doctrine comes from this experience (scripture and ecumenical councils being written/attended by those in such a state) and thus for anyone to reject Orthodoxy (and break away as the OP posits) he would have to have never experienced the uncreated light (relying on one some other means, often theological study, of arriving at belief) and in some cases, rejecting the validity of hesychasm entirely.
Click to expand...
How can non-Eastern Orthodox experience the uncreated light? Is this even possible?
 
FrKimel said:
In this comment I’m going to take quite literally the question whether Orthodoxy has ever experienced a Reformation along the lines of Luther’s Reformation. There have, of course, been very schisms and reformations within Eastern Christianity over the past 2,000 years, but there has never been anything quite like Luther’s Reformation … and, I suggest, there can’t be.

Luther’s Reformation could only have occurred in Western Christianity, with (1) its embrace of the Augustinian understanding of grace and predestination and (2) the language of merit by which to speak of justification. Only within such a structure could Luther’s existential crisis (“Do the works of my life sufficiently merit eternal life?” “Am I justified?” “Am I predestined?” “How do I find a gracious God?” “Does the mercy and love of God directly intend me?” “Am I saved? Am I damned?”) have occurred. It is the combination of Augustinian Anti-Pelagianism and a juridical way of speaking of justification that provided the conditions for Luther’s “perfect storm” of salvific uncertainty. Luther responded to his crisis by rejecting merit and affirming the utter passivity of faith: we are saved by hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even though he made changes to the inherited Augustinianism, he remained within it to the end.

Given that the Eastern tradition neither affirms an Augustinian construal of grace nor employs the language of merit to speak of our relationship with God there simply cannot be within Orthodoxy that kind of crisis of assurance tore apart the Latin Church. Orthodox Christians have other kinds of existential crises, of course, but nothing quite like Luther’s. Hence there cannot be, I propose, a “Lutheran” reformation within Orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
Interesting way of looking at the matter.

What “other kinds of existential crises” can, in your view, affect Eastern Orthodox?
 
Trebor135 said:
How can non-Eastern Orthodox experience the uncreated light? Is this even possible?
Click to expand...
Christ is Risen!

Yes, but it is very rare. The Spirit, however, “blows where it wills”. Job (Job 19:26 and Job 42:5), St. Cornelius the Centurion (Acts 10:3) , and St. Paul (Acts 9:3) are but a few examples (though in the case of the latter two, both were baptized shortly afterwards).
 
FrKimel said:
Gary, could you clarify your question, please. I’m not sure what “it” and “this” refer to.
Click to expand...
I’m a bit confused by that too. I take “Isn’t it something what this has evolved into today?” in the sense of “What this has evolved into today is really something.” But I don’t know what “this” is referring to.
 
FrKimel said:
Gary, could you clarify your question, please. I’m not sure what “it” and “this” refer to.
Click to expand...
My thinking became mainline/oldline protestant then to evangelical. The evolution took justification to another level.
 
Mark_of_Ephesus said:
Christ is Risen!
Click to expand...
Happy Pascha!
Yes, but it is very rare. The Spirit, however, “blows where it wills”. Job (Job 19:26 and Job 42:5), St. Cornelius the Centurion (Acts 10:3) , and St. Paul (Acts 9:3) are but a few examples (though in the case of the latter two, both were baptized shortly afterwards).
Click to expand...
All right. So, if I understand you correctly, one has to be Eastern Orthodox to have any real chance of seeing the uncreated light.

If one is, in fact, Eastern Orthodox, can one do anything to reach this spiritual milestone? If so, what steps ought be taken?
 
FrKimel said:
In this comment I’m going to take quite literally the question whether Orthodoxy has ever experienced a Reformation along the lines of Luther’s Reformation. There have, of course, been very schisms and reformations within Eastern Christianity over the past 2,000 years, but there has never been anything quite like Luther’s Reformation … and, I suggest, there can’t be.

Luther’s Reformation could only have occurred in Western Christianity, with (1) its embrace of the Augustinian understanding of grace and predestination and (2) the language of merit by which to speak of justification. Only within such a structure could Luther’s existential crisis (“Do the works of my life sufficiently merit eternal life?” “Am I justified?” “Am I predestined?” “How do I find a gracious God?” “Does the mercy and love of God directly intend me?” “Am I saved? Am I damned?”) have occurred. It is the combination of Augustinian Anti-Pelagianism and a juridical way of speaking of justification that provided the conditions for Luther’s “perfect storm” of salvific uncertainty. Luther responded to his crisis by rejecting merit and affirming the utter passivity of faith: we are saved by hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even though he made changes to the inherited Augustinianism, he remained within it to the end.

Given that the Eastern tradition neither affirms an Augustinian construal of grace nor employs the language of merit to speak of our relationship with God there simply cannot be within Orthodoxy that kind of crisis of assurance tore apart the Latin Church. Orthodox Christians have other kinds of existential crises, of course, but nothing quite like Luther’s. Hence there cannot be, I propose, a “Lutheran” reformation within Orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
Fr,

Luther as I understand it went to someone in the Eastern Orthodox to try to plead his case and was rejected as I understand it. Do you have more on this?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top