Protestants in the Eastern Churches

[FrKimel]

Fr, Luther as I understand it went to someone in the Eastern Orthodox to try to plead his case and was rejected as I understand it. Do you have more on this?

I do not believe that Martin Luther himself engaged in any discussions with the Orthodox; but Melancthon sent a personal letter to Patriarch Joasaph II in 1559. This was then followed up by an exchange of correspondence between Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II. This correspondence is available in the book Augsburg and Constantinople. The dialogue was not particularly fruitful, but it is interesting to read.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I do not believe that Martin Luther himself engaged in any discussions with the Orthodox; but Melancthon sent a personal letter to Patriarch Joasaph II in 1559. This was then followed up by an exchange of correspondence between Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II. This correspondence is available in the book Augsburg and Constantinople. The dialogue was not particularly fruitful, but it is interesting to read.

Thanks for the direction Father. I’ll have to read.

 

[Hesychios]

Thanks for the direction Father. I’ll have to read.

Brief overview…

 

[Peter_J]

I do not believe that Martin Luther himself engaged in any discussions with the Orthodox; but Melancthon sent a personal letter to Patriarch Joasaph II in 1559. This was then followed up by an exchange of correspondence between Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II. This correspondence is available in the book Augsburg and Constantinople. The dialogue was not particularly fruitful, but it is interesting to read.

Also noteworthy that some Orthodox today seeing those correspondences as a model for how ecumenical dialogue should be done today. For example, from the fairly unecumenical website Orthodox Christian Information Center:

I have chosen these excerpts because they show how Orthodox “ecumenical dialogue” has proceeded in the past. What you will read is in sharp contrast to much of what passes for “Orthodox dialogue” with the heterodox today.

• The Three Answers of Patriarch Jeremiah II: A Commentary on Modern Ecumenical Dialogue With the Heterodox

 

[Mark_of_Ephesus]

Happy Pascha!

All right. So, if I understand you correctly, one has to be Eastern Orthodox to have any real chance of seeing the uncreated light.

If one is, in fact, Eastern Orthodox, can one do anything to reach this spiritual milestone? If so, what steps ought be taken?

It is very, very difficult to get to that point. While God reveals himself to some rather early (Elder Sophrony, for example, experienced it as a child), most people will spend decades and decades battling the passions before reaching glorification. Of course, not everyone can receive this gift, because God only grants it to those whom he sees would benefit from it and often benefit those around them (1 Corinthians 12:26). The hermit at 3:00 in this Youtube video speaks a bit on it :

youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

If one’s spirit draws him to attain such perfection, then he should first learn noetic prayer, under the spiritual guidance of someone who is at least illumined. Noetic prayer, as well as making one a “temple of the Holy Spirit”, allows us to see all of creation how it truly is (St. Maximos the Confessor speaks on this in his Centuries), rather than under the shroud of delusion.

Of course, it seems that most people who receive glorification never actually focus on attaining it. Their focus is the casting away of sin in its entirety, the acquisition of complete dispassion, and unceasing prayer. That is, they seek to love God with their whole being. Of course, those who receive a permanent state of glorification (as opposed to those receiving a temporary form), often pray for it to be taken away simply because the feeling is, while indescribably joyful, almost unbearable - as if they would be consumed at any moment (which is why Orthodoxy teaches that heaven and hell are synonymous - consuming light and consuming fire are points of view depending on the purity of the soul).

If you have great interest in the subject matter, Fr. John Romanides has a book called Patristic Theology that really examines this subject in greater detail, showing its importance in not only the Church, but the Old Testament as well. Theosis is central to everything Orthodox.

 

[CopticChristian]

It is very, very difficult to get to that point. While God reveals himself to some rather early (Elder Sophrony, for example, experienced it as a child), most people will spend decades and decades battling the passions before reaching glorification. Of course, not everyone can receive this gift, because God only grants it to those whom he sees would benefit from it and often benefit those around them (1 Corinthians 12:26). The hermit at 3:00 in this Youtube video speaks a bit on it :

youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

If one’s spirit draws him to attain such perfection, then he should first learn noetic prayer, under the spiritual guidance of someone who is at least illumined. Noetic prayer, as well as making one a “temple of the Holy Spirit”, allows us to see all of creation how it truly is (St. Maximos the Confessor speaks on this in his Centuries), rather than under the shroud of delusion.

Of course, it seems that most people who receive glorification never actually focus on attaining it. Their focus is the casting away of sin in its entirety, the acquisition of complete dispassion, and unceasing prayer. That is, they seek to love God with their whole being. Of course, those who receive a permanent state of glorification (as opposed to those receiving a temporary form), often pray for it to be taken away simply because the feeling is, while indescribably joyful, almost unbearable - as if they would be consumed at any moment (which is why Orthodoxy teaches that heaven and hell are synonymous - consuming light and consuming fire are points of view depending on the purity of the soul).

If you have great interest in the subject matter, Fr. John Romanides has a book called Patristic Theology that really examines this subject in greater detail, showing its importance in not only the Church, but the Old Testament as well. Theosis is central to everything Orthodox.

Wow,

The guy at the end sounds like a real Bible Christian to me.

 

[CopticChristian]

I do not believe that Martin Luther himself engaged in any discussions with the Orthodox; but Melancthon sent a personal letter to Patriarch Joasaph II in 1559. This was then followed up by an exchange of correspondence between Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II. This correspondence is available in the book Augsburg and Constantinople. The dialogue was not particularly fruitful, but it is interesting to read.

Fr,

I found this at this website…

christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/feb08.html

Luther was generally positive toward the Eastern Orthodox church, especially because it rejected many of the things he most disliked about the Roman Catholic church: clerical celibacy, papal supremacy, purgatory, indulgences, and Communion by bread alone. He frequently referred to the beliefs and practices of the “Greek church,” as he called it, as evidence that Catholics had deviated from principles upon which Christians formerly agreed.

Luther never attempted to build a bridge to the Eastern church, but some of his followers did. Philipp Melanchthon worked with Demetrios Mysos, a deacon sent by the patriarch of Constantinople to find out about the new religious movement in Germany, to complete a Greek translation/paraphrase of the Augsburg Confession, called the Augustana Graeca. Mysos was supposed to take the document back to Constantinople, but he died on the journey.

Some Lutheran theologians at Tubingen tried to establish an even closer connection. The “Eastern Orthodoxy” entry in The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Reformation, edited by Hans J. Hillerbrand, reports:

The Lutherans were convinced that they, rather than Rome, were the true apostolic and catholic church, and thus to establish contact with the venerable Greek church, to enlist its support against the papacy, and perhaps even to enter into communion with this apostolic church would have been a sensational victory. Thus in 1575 they sent the Augustana Graeca to Patriarch Jeremias II (d. 1595), asking his opinion. There ensued over the next six years a friendly but candid exchange of extensive doctrinal correspondence (three letters from both sides totaling over four hundred printed pages). Prominent topics discussed included the authority of scripture and tradition; the filioque; the nature of the church; grace, free will, and synergism; justification, faith, and good works; eucharistic practices; the priesthood and the ministry; prayers for the departed; the invocation of saints; feasts and fasting; and monasticism. Except for those doctrines and customs of the Roman church that the East had never accepted, the changes in church teaching and polity advocated by the Lutherans were rejected by the Orthodox, who thus implicitly agreed on most issues with the Catholics.

It would appear that the Orthodox did not support the Lutherans as the Apostolic Church as proposed.

 

[Peter_J]

Luther was generally positive toward the Eastern Orthodox church, especially because it rejected many of the things he most disliked about the Roman Catholic church: clerical celibacy, papal supremacy, purgatory, indulgences, and Communion by bread alone. He frequently referred to the beliefs and practices of the “Greek church,” as he called it, as evidence that Catholics had deviated from principles upon which Christians formerly agreed.

This phenomenon is widespread today (including on this forum). Different groups will say “We’re just like the Orthodox”, or words to that effect.

 

[LoyalViews]

Thanks for your answers, I understand completely now.

God Bless :byzsoc:
Have a blessed Easter.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Brief overview…

Excellent Brief Michael.

 

[Marybeloved]

It is very, very difficult to get to that point. While God reveals himself to some rather early (Elder Sophrony, for example, experienced it as a child), most people will spend decades and decades battling the passions before reaching glorification. Of course, not everyone can receive this gift, because God only grants it to those whom he sees would benefit from it and often benefit those around them (1 Corinthians 12:26). The hermit at 3:00 in this Youtube video speaks a bit on it :

youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

If one’s spirit draws him to attain such perfection, then he should first learn noetic prayer, under the spiritual guidance of someone who is at least illumined. Noetic prayer, as well as making one a “temple of the Holy Spirit”, allows us to see all of creation how it truly is (St. Maximos the Confessor speaks on this in his Centuries), rather than under the shroud of delusion.

Of course, it seems that most people who receive glorification never actually focus on attaining it. Their focus is the casting away of sin in its entirety, the acquisition of complete dispassion, and unceasing prayer. That is, they seek to love God with their whole being. Of course, those who receive a permanent state of glorification (as opposed to those receiving a temporary form), often pray for it to be taken away simply because the feeling is, while indescribably joyful, almost unbearable - as if they would be consumed at any moment (which is why Orthodoxy teaches that heaven and hell are synonymous - consuming light and consuming fire are points of view depending on the purity of the soul).

If you have great interest in the subject matter, Fr. John Romanides has a book called Patristic Theology that really examines this subject in greater detail, showing its importance in not only the Church, but the Old Testament as well. Theosis is central to everything Orthodox.

Maybe it’s just me, but what you describe sounds awfully similar to the "prayer of union" that the Western saints describe- especially the indescribable joy accompanied by the sense of being almost utterly consumed by a burning love of God.

Peace.