Protestants (including Mormons): When did the "Great Apostacy" happen?

[Isa_Almisry]

A Around 33
B 33-70
C 70-95
D 95-107
E 107-155
F 155-200
G 200-330
H 300-325
I 325-1517
J 1517-

 

[Peter_J]

Isa Almisry:

Protestants (including Mormons): When did the “Great Apostacy” happen?

Mormons aren’t Protestants, so it would make more sense to ask: ‘Protestants and Mormons: When did the “Great Apostacy” happen?’

 

[reen12]

I give up. When? http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[Mannyfit75]

A Around 33
B 33-70
C 70-95
D 95-107
E 107-155
F 155-200
G 200-330
H 300-325
I 325-1517
J 1517-

Those are conflicting dates… truly these false Christian sects are so wrong because they cannot come up with an agreement. The so-called Great Apostacy is false.

It never happened. If it did, it would only mean that there are false teachers in the Church but the Church itself cannot have a totally departure from the truth.

In my personal opinion, the Great Apostacy is when the people of God depart from God completely. They ignore his Church and God. They become Atheists or Agnostics.

If you look at the world today, many governments are become secular and want God out of the public. They do not want the Ten Commandments in the Court. Preaching against Homosexual becomes a crime.

So what is the Great Apostacy. “It’s Relativism. The concept of belief that there is no ABSOLUTE truth.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

A Around 33
B 33-70
C 70-95
D 95-107
E 107-155
F 155-200
G 200-330
H 300-325
I 325-1517
J 1517-

When St. Michael the arch Angel removed Lucifer and his demons from heaven;

If there is another apostacy, please provide facts such as dates, names and places for historical proof. Sorry an 18th or 19th century interpretation of a man’s opinion or religious belief’s does not suffice as a fact of history. The only person who teaches such deceptions comes from the father of lies.

 

[LutheranDK]

When St. Michael the arch Angel removed Lucifer and his demons from heaven;

Not going to answer what is obviously a trick question (the one the thread begins with), I am intrigued:

Why do y’all call the Archangel Michael “Saint”?
He (or, as angels are non-corporeal beings, “it”, but that sounds more like a thing than a being) is an angel. Those angels that stayed obedient to God (of which Michael is one of the leaders) are His servants, and, Scripture teaches us, OUR servants.
Isn’t a “saint” in the RC understanding of it, a human being who has led a particularly holy life?
And why pray to an angel? “He” cannot do anything about it; indeed cannot do anything unless God directs him.

 

[tGette]

Not going to answer what is obviously a trick question (the one the thread begins with), I am intrigued:

Why do y’all call the Archangel Michael “Saint”?
He (or, as angels are non-corporeal beings, “it”, but that sounds more like a thing than a being) is an angel. Those angels that stayed obedient to God (of which Michael is one of the leaders) are His servants, and, Scripture teaches us, OUR servants.
Isn’t a “saint” in the RC understanding of it, a human being who has led a particularly holy life?
And why pray to an angel? “He” cannot do anything about it; indeed cannot do anything unless God directs him.

Angels have freewill…hence…the fall with Lucifer!

I forget the reason he is a Saint…I think it is because anyone in Heaven is considered a Saint…and he is in Heaven. Not the most elaborate answer I know…please forgive me.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Not going to answer what is obviously a trick question (the one the thread begins with), I am intrigued:

Why do y’all call the Archangel Michael “Saint”?
He (or, as angels are non-corporeal beings, “it”, but that sounds more like a thing than a being) is an angel. Those angels that stayed obedient to God (of which Michael is one of the leaders) are His servants, and, Scripture teaches us, OUR servants.
Isn’t a “saint” in the RC understanding of it, a human being who has led a particularly holy life?
And why pray to an angel? “He” cannot do anything about it; indeed cannot do anything unless God directs him.

Iam happy to hear you believe in Angels; From your explanation above proves you dont have a clue about angels and what the Catholic church teaches about them.

Did you know the bible teaches there are 9 choirs of angels? This is one of the beautiful revelations of God gives to his Catholic church.

The title given to Micheal as Saint, deals here with the “Dulia” type of veneration, not the “Lateria” which is worship Catholics only give to God alone. Saint is a appropriate and fitting proper to act dutifully, describing the deameanor as in a court room or giving courtesy to meeting a president… which also implies to the believer that have a devotion to Michael as his/her saint. Saint entails alot more than your limited definition that you have partly taken from the Catholic definition.

Michael is the protector of the Catholic church, Michael is the helper of souls, thus one who acts and intercedes for believers as a Saint in heaven. It is God’s teaching to his Catholic church, hear God speaks:

Exodus23:20
"See, I am sending an angel before you, to guard you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared.
21
4 Be attentive to him and heed his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sin. My authority resides in him.
22
If you heed his voice and carry out all I tell you, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.
23
"My angel will go before you

The angels offer up our prayers to God, along with the prayers of the Catholic saints and martyrs;

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.

Michael is dubbed saint because he acts on our behalf according to God’s will, IF I were you, I would tread very softly when speaking about angels;

Hebrews 13:2
Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels.

So do you consider Luther was an apostate to the first 1500 years of Christianity?

 

[LutheranDK]

Iam happy to hear you believe in Angels; From your explanation above proves you dont have a clue about angels and what the Catholic church teaches about them.

Partially correct. I do not have a lot of info on what the RC church teaches about angels.
And of course I believe in the existance of angels. It is not possible to read the Bible as God’s word, and believe otherwise.

Did you know the bible teaches there are 9 choirs of angels? This is one of the beautiful revelations of God gives to his Catholic church.

I did not know that the Bible says there are 9 choirs of angels, no. Can you please tell me where it says that?

Michael is the protector of the Catholic church, Michael is the helper of souls, thus one who acts and intercedes for believers as a Saint in heaven. It is God’s teaching to his Catholic church, hear God speaks:

Exodus23:20
"See, I am sending an angel before you, to guard you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared.
21
4 Be attentive to him and heed his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sin. My authority resides in him.
22
If you heed his voice and carry out all I tell you, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.
23
"My angel will go before you

I am unsure of what your point is, here? Becaise the context of the verse CLEARLY and unequivocally speaks not prophetically about the church to come once the Messiah comes, but about the entrance of the tribes of Israel into the Promised Land. Immediately preceding the verses you quote, we have God instructing the Israelites how to celebrate miscellaneous feasts, and immediately after, we have God listing the blessings that He will bestow upon the Israelites if they obey Him.

QUOTE=Gabriel of 12;4256218]The angels offer up our prayers to God, along with the prayers of the Catholic saints and martyrs;

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.

Actually, that verse shows the angel as nothing more than a messenger, unable to act upon them

QUOTE=Gabriel of 12;4256218]Michael is dubbed saint because he acts on our behalf according to God’s will, IF I were you, I would tread very softly when speaking about angels;

Hebrews 13:2
Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels.

I completely fail to see what you’re getting at here? Are you encouraging me to be hospitable, or to embrace the RC view on angels?

QUOTE=Gabriel of 12;4256218]So do you consider Luther was an apostate to the first 1500 years of Christianity?

Do you think I would call myself “Lutheran” if I did?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I did not know that the Bible says there are 9 choirs of angels, no. Can you please tell me where it says that?

Gabriel of 12
**The nine choirs of angels are numerous throughout scripture, so I will just list them for you.

Seraphim, Cheribim, Thrones, Dominations, Virtues, Powers, Principalites, Archangels, Angels.**

LutheranDK
I am unsure of what your point is, here? Becaise the context of the verse CLEARLY and unequivocally speaks not prophetically about the church to come once the Messiah comes, but about the entrance of the tribes of Israel into the Promised Land. Immediately preceding the verses you quote, we have God instructing the Israelites how to celebrate miscellaneous feasts, and immediately after, we have God listing the blessings that He will bestow upon the Israelites if they obey Him.

Gabriel of 12
**Exodus 23:20 deals with the blessing of keeping the covenant, and the confirmation that Yahweh through the angel will be with the people and bring them to the promise land. The condition for the blessings is obedience during the journey to the angel, who is Yahweh himself.

My point to these scriptures is to show that the angels are active in God’s peoples lives. They are not idle beings as you have seem to suggest, incapable of acting on our behalf as do the Saints in heaven.**

QUOTE=Gabriel of 12;4256218]The angels offer up our prayers to God, along with the prayers of the Catholic saints and martyrs;

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.

LutheranDK
Actually, that verse shows the angel as nothing more than a messenger, unable to act upon them

Gabriel of 12
You seem to be forcing your 20th century biblical interpretation into a heavenly liturgical action in heaven that conflicts with the Hebrew thought interpretation from the first century. This liturgical angel is offering the prayers of ALL THE HOLY ONES with great quantity of incense before God’s throne. This is not just being an angel. You do know angel = messenger is the office, and Spirit is their nature.

Hebrews 13:2
Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels.

LutheranDK
I completely fail to see what you’re getting at here? Are you encouraging me to be hospitable, or to embrace the RC view on angels?

Gabriel of 12
I am simply informing you that the heavenly choirs of angels are much more than a messenger. Before you state anything offensive to them or discredit their existance and their actions, beware that you may unknowingly offend them.

QUOTE=Gabriel of 12;4256218]So do you consider Luther was an apostate to the first 1500 years of Christianity?

LutheranDK
Do you think I would call myself “Lutheran” if I did?

Gabriel of 12
**You do know that your founder Martin Luther seperated himself from the Catholic church? Would you consider Luther’s seperation from the Catholilc church an apostacy, because of his new founded theology of Sola Fe, Sola Scriptura, that was never heard of for the first 1500 years of Christianity? **

 

[BDawg]

A Around 33
B 33-70
C 70-95
D 95-107
E 107-155
F 155-200
G 200-330
H 300-325
I 325-1517
J 1517-

I’m a Mormon who has studied this question. If the “Apostasy” is defined as a loss of God’s authority, I would say the process started in about 50-60 AD, and was completed by 200 AD. If you define it as doctrinal drift, I would say it went on much longer.

If you would like to see some historical arguments for this point of view, check out this debate between a Mormon and a Catholic ex-Mormon. Both sides are presented in some detail.

 

[mercygate]

Not going to answer what is obviously a trick question (the one the thread begins with), I am intrigued:

Why do y’all call the Archangel Michael “Saint”?
He (or, as angels are non-corporeal beings, “it”, but that sounds more like a thing than a being) is an angel. Those angels that stayed obedient to God (of which Michael is one of the leaders) are His servants, and, Scripture teaches us, OUR servants.
Isn’t a “saint” in the RC understanding of it, a human being who has led a particularly holy life?
And why pray to an angel? “He” cannot do anything about it; indeed cannot do anything unless God directs him.

I have read the elaborate explanations of calling Michael “Saint” given by others, but my own view is that the situation is much simpler. The Greek word “hagios” is used both as a noun and as an adjective. In English, it is translated both as “holy” and as “saint.” So as a “holy Angel”, Michael (and the other angels) is also “Saint” Michael.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I’m a Mormon who has studied this question. If the “Apostasy” is defined as a loss of God’s authority, I would say the process started in about 50-60 AD, and was completed by 200 AD. If you define it as doctrinal drift, I would say it went on much longer.

If you would like to see some historical arguments for this point of view, check out this debate between a Mormon and a Catholic ex-Mormon. Both sides are presented in some detail.

I am one who does not care to hear arguments or opinions 1800 years later after the persecution of the Catholic church for the first 3OO years, I guess that puts your early date out of line, because the Church was still being persecuted not apostacised. Besides are Mormons content with themselves that you are the only one 18hundred years later to lay a false claim to a total apostacy of the Church instituted by Jesus Christ and by this false claim never to be proven as historical fact is calling our Lord Jesus a Liar? For Jesus promised to never leave us orphans, and to be with us until the end of time.

Does this not make you anti Christ, when you call Jesus a Liar, that his first century Church went into total apostacy in the time that you claim when the first 30 Popes and other Catholic christians where martyred for not denying Jesus. How do you answer to those brave souls who went to their deaths for refusing to deny Jesus as God, and handed down this teaching to today.

No, Jesus does not lie nor decieve, “total apostacy” is a man made theology that comes straight from the father of Lies.

Mormons can not prove anything from the first century, for one your Christian belief’s never existed until (man) Joseph Smith invented it over 1800 years later. Where were you when the Ceasars where feeding us to the lions for this Catholic faith, where were you, when the Jews joined forces with the Romans to persecute the Christian church during your false apostate dates.

Please stop teaching this lie to God’s people, your aiding the evil one in this work, or produce actual facts and historical writings, with eyewitness accounts. Why is it that the Catholic church can produce such physical evidence that a “total apostacy” never occurred, and Mormonism cannot produce a single physical evidence to support your false claim. Mormons are decieving, if you cannot produce fact of Mormons false claim of an apostacy.

Joseph Smith your founder, made a prophecy of the second coming, that never came to pass, proving him a false prophet of God. Why should anyone believe what Mormonism has to teach about Christianity when your changing religion started in the 1800’s a.d.

Provide Proof of first to second century apostacy; not arguments and opinions 1800 years later, Or never speak such lies.

Peace