Protestants-Is this proof we can talk to dead saints?

[CatherineofA]

Why or why not?

Luke 16:19-31

19] “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
24] And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' **25**] But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27] And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, **28**] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' **29**] But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30] And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' **31**] He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

 

[Jon_Hus]

No it isn’t.

1. The rich man doing most of the talking is not a Saint
2. The talk coming from the rich man leads to nothing
3. The point of the passage is that once you depart this world unbelieving you have no hope
4. All of the persons in the conversation have departed this world at the time of the conversation
5. The rich man is already in hades

If this passage proves anything is is that we cannot talk to dead saints.

 

[Zundrah]

No it isn’t.

1. The rich man doing most of the talking is not a Saint
2. The talk coming from the rich man leads to nothing
3. The point of the passage is that once you depart this world unbelieving you have no hope
4. All of the persons in the conversation have departed this world at the time of the conversation
5. The rich man is already in hades

If this passage proves anything is is that we cannot talk to dead saints.

So you are protestants then? I was but now I pray to the communion of saints and our Mary. The spirit is with you when you pray with them, I would recommend that you try it before you condemn it, Jon Hus.

 

[CatherineofA]

No it isn’t.

1. The rich man doing most of the talking is not a Saint
2. The talk coming from the rich man leads to nothing
3. The point of the passage is that once you depart this world unbelieving you have no hope
4. All of the persons in the conversation have departed this world at the time of the conversation
5. The rich man is already in hades

If this passage proves anything is is that we cannot talk to dead saints.

I’m from a Protestant background and you are not paying attention to all the verses. This is more than discussions amongst the dead, but also discusses what the living can do.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' **30**] And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31] He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’"

 

[Zundrah]

I’m from a Protestant background and you are not paying attention to all the verses. This is more than discussions amongst the dead, but also discusses what the living can do.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' **30**] And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31] He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’"

It is saying that if you have no faith that you can talk to the saints, then what faith can you possibly have that Christ rose from the dead?

Think about it, people.

 

[CatherineofA]

It is saying that if you have no faith that you can talk to the saints, then what faith can you possibly have that Christ rose from the dead?

Think about it, people.

I grew up in an Evangelical background and I’m not Catholic. Saying this, you are reading ideas into the verses that aren’t even related. A Biblical literalist doesn’t do that.

 

[CatherineofA]

It is saying that if you have no faith that you can talk to the saints, then what faith can you possibly have that Christ rose from the dead?

Think about it, people.

I’m sorry…I reread your comment and see that you are saying it says you can talk to saints. My bad.

 

[Zundrah]

I’m sorry…I reread your comment and see that you are saying it says you can talk to saints. My bad.

Well, have you done it yet? Come on be honest, I bet you have but your just not admitting it! :heaven: Ever spoken to Mary? I have.

 

[Selene]

It is saying that if you have no faith that you can talk to the saints, then what faith can you possibly have that Christ rose from the dead?

Think about it, people.

Very good point. When Christ was walking on the earth as a man 2000 years ago, he also talked to Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah had already passed away when Jesus talked to them.

 

[JonNC]

Why or why not?

Luke 16:19-31

19] “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
24] And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' **25**] But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27] And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, **28**] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' **29**] But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30] And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' **31**] He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Actually, CatherineofA, Luke 15:7 gives me much more pause than the verse you reference.

I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.

How can the Church Triumphant rejoice over the repentance of one sinner, and not have knowledge of what is going on in that one sinner’s life on Earth?
It is not definitive, but coupled with the fact that intercessory prayer has been the practice in both east and west, prior to and since the schism, makes me reconsider the posibility.

Jon

EDIT: I forgot to mention that in regards the title of the thread, while it is true the saints have suffered death on earth, by definition they are alive in Christ as members of the Church Triumphant.

 

[wmscott]

A point to add is that the Saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ and reside with Him in Heaven.

 

[Mikejw]

So you are protestants then? I was but now I pray to the communion of saints and our Mary. The spirit is with you when you pray with them, I would recommend that you try it before you condemn it, Jon Hus.

The occult realm call it necromancing, not a good idea if you don’t want to open yourself up to demonic activity. It is appointed for man to die once and then judgment. (Removed reference to anti-Catholic video)

 

[Zundrah]

The occult realm call it necromancing, not a good idea if you don’t want to open yourself up to demonic activity. It is appointed for man to die once and then judgment.(Removed reference to anti-Catholic video)

The occult realm? …umm, we are talking about the catholic communion of saints, not demons…

 

[Claire_from_DE]

The occult realm call it necromancing, not a good idea if you don’t want to open yourself up to demonic activity. It is appointed for man to die once and then judgment.(Removed reference to anti-Catholic video)

And after the judgment the saints are with God in heaven where they can offer the prayers of those on earth to God. Yes, we pray directly to God, Yes, we also ask the saints to offer our prayers to God (as is described in Revelations). I personally think it is a joy to them to be able to do this.

When I was little I could go to my parents to ask for something. Sometimes I would get my brothers to ask for the same thing hoping if we asked together my parents would be more likely to agree to it. Sometimes I would give my parents a present, other times I would talk my brothers into doing it with me. The saints are our brothers and sisters in heaven.

When we talk to a saint we aren’t trying to call up or channel his spirit or get power in some way. We do it because we believe in the communion of saints which we profess in the Apostles Creed.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Why or why not?

Luke 16:19-31

19] “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
24] And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' **25**] But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27] And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, **28**] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' **29**] But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30] And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' **31**] He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Catherine, Although I do talk to the saints, I don’t think these verses say anything about us doing so. They are referring to the fact that if someone won’t listen to what Moses and the Prophets say about charity and justice to the poor, they are so hard hearted that even someone appearing from the dead could not convince them.

 

[Zundrah]

Very good point. When Christ was walking on the earth as a man 2000 years ago, he also talked to Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah had already passed away when Jesus talked to them.

 

[Mikejw]

And after the judgment the saints are with God in heaven where they can offer the prayers of those on earth to God. Yes, we pray directly to God, Yes, we also ask the saints to offer our prayers to God (as is described in Revelations). I personally think it is a joy to them to be able to do this.

When I was little I could go to my parents to ask for something. Sometimes I would get my brothers to ask for the same thing hoping if we asked together my parents would be more likely to agree to it. Sometimes I would give my parents a present, other times I would talk my brothers into doing it with me. The saints are our brothers and sisters in heaven.

When we talk to a saint we aren’t trying to call up or channel his spirit or get power in some way. We do it because we believe in the communion of saints which we profess in the Apostles Creed.

“(as is described in Revelations)”
Chapter and verse if you will.

 

[Mikejw]

The occult realm? …umm, we are talking about the catholic communion of saints, not demons…

Well first of all who are the saints you speak of?

 

[Selene]

Well first of all who are the saints you speak of?

The saints in Heaven. If we can speak to God in Heaven, then we can speak to anyone else to lives in Heaven. Surely, you don’t believe that God lives all alone by Himself in Heaven?

Revelations 7:9-10 After that I saw a huge number, impossible to count, of people from every nation, race, tribe and language; they were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palms in their hands. They shouted aloud, “Victory to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

 

[Mikejw]

The occult realm? …umm, we are talking about the catholic communion of saints, not demons…

To better understand why a Catholic prays to Mary, saints and angels, I went to a book by one of Rome’s “church doctors”, “St.” Alphonsus de Liguori, called The Glories of Mary. In chapter 5, under, “Mary, Our Mediatress: The Necessity of the Intercession of Mary for our salvation”, we find the so-called scriptural evidence for prayers to Mary, saints and angels. Let’s examine his “evidence”. Liguori said:

“It is not only lawful but useful to invoke and pray to the saints, and more especially to the Queen of saints, the most holy and ever blessed Virgin Mary in order that they may obtain us the divine grace, is an article of faith, and has been defined by general Councils, against heretics who condemned it as injurious to Jesus Christ, who is our only mediator, but if a Jeremiah after his death prayed for Jerusalem; if the ancients of the Apocalypse [that’s the book of Revelation in the Christian Bible] presented the prayers of the saints to God; if a St. Peter promises his disciples that after his death he will be mindful of them; if a holy Stephen prays for his persecutors; if a St. Paul prays for his companions, if, in fine, the saints can pray for us, why cannot we beseech the saints to intercede for us?”

Let’s look at the first reference Liquori used. He said, “if a Jeremiah after his death prayed for Jerusalem” Now…let‘s stop right here….Bible readers may be confused as to where in the scriptures does Jeremiah pray for Jerusalem after he is dead. You won’t find it in the Christian Bible, because Maccabees was not written by a prophet, and it contains several errors. Rome uses the apocrypha in the vain attempt to discredit God’s true word, as they use 2 Maccabees 15:14 to prove one may pray to saints. A man named Onias had a vision of Jeremiah who hands him a sword of gold. Onias claims that Jeremiah “prayeth much for the people” and is a “lover of the brethren”, yet you won’t find anyone praying to Jeremiah, so it really fails to make Liguori’s point, as does the next scripture he uses in Rev.5:8,

“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”

Again, there is no evidence here that the prayers in the golden vials were prayers offered TO Mary and saints. As a matter of fact, it says, “the prayers OF saints”, not “the prayers TO saints”. Rome has a habit of changing words from “and to or” or “on to at” or “are to in” or “in to on”. So you really have to closely examine the verses that Rome gives to supports her doctrines. I guess Rome doesn’t care that God said “…Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matt.5:18) So…change as the may, the word of God will still stand.

Let’s continue looking at Liguori’s scriptural proof for prayers to saints. He said, “…St. Peter promises his disciples that after his death he will be mindful of them…" (2Pet.1:15) Let’s look at the verse he used and we’ll back up a couple to better understand what Peter is really saying. Starting at verse 12, we read:

“Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.”

These verses in no way indicates that Peter is promising that after his death he will be mindful of them. It’s actually saying the opposite of what Liguori says. Peter is simply telling them that he would not neglect to keep reminding them of things they already knew so that after his decease they would remember the things he taught. It is the people, not Peter that is mindful of the things said. This is a deliberate twisting of the scriptures.

Liguori uses Stephen praying for his persecutors and Paul praying for his companions as proof that one can pray to saints. This again is a twisting of scriptures. Not only were Stephen and Paul both living at the time of their prayers, but both men were praying to God. Whether or not the saints that are in heaven pray for the living saints on earth does automatically grant permission for any man to start praying to them. Prayers are always to God alone and God alone!!