Protestants listen up...part II

[racing59]

Prodigal: Some have suggested that the “Bosom of Abraham” may exist!

Hi beleever, I wanted to commend you on your ministry. I see you heart is with Jesus Christ.Some say the Boosom of Abraham is now Purgatory.Only the Saved can get there, then purified with Holy Fire, they then go to Heaven. Others have suggested it is Infant Limbo, still Paradise, but a cleansing before they get to heaven. The ancients believe the Boosom of Abraham was in the Great Abyss. It was believed the shaft to the Great Abyss was on Mt. Moriah were Jerusalem is. The alter of the Temple was right over it. On the day of Atonement the blood of the animal sacrifices ran down and covered those their before Jesus. A read a book called Legions of Jerusalem, it was fascinating reading.
Peace be with you

 

[jean8]

Yes, I know, but you said you didn’t think the thief went immediately into heaven and I wondered where you thought he went.

Christ preached to those “spirits” that were in prison. The Gospel was preached also to the dead.

**1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.**

Those spirits were neither in heaven or hell. Where were they?

I’m giving you an example of where part of the belief of purgatory comes from.

1Pet. 3:18 was indeed a one time event. Christ said from the cross , “It is finished.”
1Pet.3:19 there are various versons of this passage having to do with ‘spirits’ which do you prefer?
For purgatory? I like 1Cor3:11-15

jean

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1Pet. 3:18 was indeed a one time event. Christ said from the cross , “It is finished.”
1Pet.3:19 there are various versons of this passage having to do with ‘spirits’ which do you prefer?
For purgatory? I like 1Cor3:11-15

jean

Hello jean8,

Many things in the Bible have multiple meanings and I see a lot of Protestants use the phrase “It is finished.” I am providing something I have used everytime I see that phrase used to give you some food for thought on what was happening with His passion and why He said, “it is finished.”

**The Passover meal was part of the covenant from God and men. It required an active participation. In reading Exodus 12:17, we see this was to be done perpetually, for ever. To reject the Last Supper as the adjustment to, or replacement of, or more specifically a fulfillment of, the covenant command of God, means we should still be celebrating the Passover meal as prescribed by God.

We know from Jeremiah 31:31, a new covenant was prophesied. This prophesy was brought to mind in the New Testament, in a letter from St. Paul to the Hebrews 8:7 – 12.

The prescription of the Passover meal was detailed and clear from the Lord, as written in Exodus 12.

A lamb without blemish was to be slaughtered at twilight, eaten with unleavened bread, the lamb’s blood was to be sprinkled on the doorposts with hyssop, none of the lamb’s bones were to be broken, and this ordinance was to be celebrated perpetually.

The Jewish Passover meal consisted of:

1. The Festival Blessing – Drink from the 1st cup of wine.
2. Passover Narrative and Little Hallel (Psalms 113) – Drink from 2nd cup of wine.
3. Main Meal: roasted lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs and spices – Drink from 3rd cup of wine.
4. Great Hallel (Psalms 114 – 118) and the drinking of the 4th cup of wine, and closed when presiding priest or host says the phrase, “TEL TELESTI” which is interpreted as “It is finished” or “It is consummated”.

Now let’s look at the Lord’s Supper that occurred during the celebration of the Passover, or Seder, meal.

3 of the Gospel authors told us about the Lord’s Supper. Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote about it. All 3 say He gave the cup, of the new covenant, to the Apostles and told them to drink, but it does not tell us that Christ, the High Priest, drank of the cup. Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25 and Luke 22:18, tells us that, during the Passover meal, Christ announced He would not drink fruit of the vine again, until he drank it in the Kingdom of God. After making this announcement, Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 tell us, “Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.” After singing a hymn, the great Hallel, they went out to the garden, without the High Priest closing the celebration, not only not closing the celebration, but declaring He would not drink fruit of the vine again, until He drank it in the Kingdom of God. He did not say, “It is finished” or “It is consummated”.
In the garden, our Lord prayed to the father to let this cup be passed from Him, if it was the Father’s will. Matthew 22:44 tells us that Christ prayed this 3 times. What cup was Christ praying be passed from Him? I believe it was the 4th cup that closed the Passover meal, which was fulfilled with the Lord’s Supper.

When God made the covenant with Moses, Moses asked who to tell had told him of the covenant, Exodus 3:13 – 14. God told Moses, “I am, who I am.”

When Christ was arrested in the garden, He asked who they were looking for and they replied, “Jesus of Nazareth”. In John 18:5, Jesus told them, “I AM he”. When those arresting Him heard this, they went backward and fell to the ground (John 18:6).

Mark 15:22 – 24 told us that Christ was offered wine drugged with myrrh, but He did not drink it.

John 19:28 – 30 explains that Our Lord, aware that everything was now finished, in order that scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst”. Hearing this, they took a sponge and dipped it in common wine, sour wine, fruit of the vine, and held it up to His mouth with hyssop. After taking the wine, our Lord said, “It is finished”, bowed His head and gave up the spirit.

John 19:33 – 38 told us that our Lord’s legs were not broken, so that scripture might be fulfilled.

Mark 15:33 – 34 tells us the time the Lamb of God death, which was twilight, the same time Moses was instructed to slaughter the sacrificial lamb.

Christ came to fulfill the law, and it was fulfilled with the new covenant. A covenant of God and men, that requires participation of those being set free.**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hello again jean8,

You have chosen a very good example of purgatory with 1Cor3:11-15.

To help us understand this belief, it’s always helpful to read the writings of the early Church fathers, to see what the early Christians believed from the teachings passed down to them and from their interpretation of scriptures.

Clement of Alexandria

The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

Origen

If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Abercius

The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213]).

Cyprian

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ambrose of Milan

Give perfect rest to thy servant Theodosius, that rest which thou hast prepared for thy saints… I have loved him, and therefore will I follow him into the land of the living; nor will I leave him until by tears and prayers I shall lead him wither his merits summon him, unto the holy mountain of the Lord (Funeral Sermon of Theodosius 36-37 [A.D. 395]).

Augustine

There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, I mean, what’s up guan? I’m not sure I could say that I made a mistake about the thief on the cross; perhaps just a difference in interpretation! I know that Heaven wasn’t open yet, and I already knew, that he didn’t go that very day. I do believe he went eventually, or will, on that day! Jesus said, “For today, I tell you; you will be with me in paradise”. So if the thief will be WITH Jesus in paradise, where is Jesus? Wait, He rose after 3 days, appeared to his disciples on several occasions, and just prior to the Pentacost, ascended!!! So even in the absence of baptism, as we know it, I believe that the thief is in Heaven!

Yes, of course, we are in agreement on this point. Although Jesus taught that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, we also acknowledge that He is ready, able, and willing to save everyone, and does so however He likes. He is not bound by His commandments to us. They are for our benefit.

Of course not! Guanophore is saying that paradise isn’t Heaven, and Jesus said that the thief WOULD be in paradise WITH HIM! I knew that the thief did not go to Heaven immediately! It would be like us; we are given the promise of Heaven when we get saved, but it doesn’t mean we are going right away Just saying, if Heaven isn’t paradise, where is it?

My apologies, 1beleevr, as I read thru the thread after posting, I did realize that you understood the verse this way.

The Jews believed in a “holding place” for the “righteous dead”. They referred to this as “Abraham’s Bosom”. This may have been where Jesus preached to the souls prior to His ascension. It was not heaven, or hell.

 

[1beleevr]

Prodigal: Always impressed by the amount of work you put into your replies:thumbsup: I, personally believe, that when Jesus said,“It is finished!”, He meant His “earthly” mission was complete He of course went into the “belly” of the earth for three days, and appeared numerous tmes to His disciples, and other believers, but He was no longer wearing His earthly flesh! And the scriptures concerning the Last Supper, appear to be unclear, on certain things,i.e, whether or not Jesus drank from the cup before passing it around! Kinda of interesting though; that you assert that the High Priest did not drink from the cup, and yet today, the priest ids the only one who drinks from it Still not clear about the concept of “purgatory”!

 

[jlhargus]

1Pet. 3:18 was indeed a one time event. Christ said from the cross , “It is finished.”
jean

JL: It is finished, does not mean the sacrifice is complete. For the victim it is finished, the victim is dead and the blood of the victim has been shed, but the atonement has not been made. The atoning blood had to be taken by the High Priest into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled on the mercy seat. Christ the sacrificial victim, had to be resurrected and ascend into heaven, 1Cor15:17 And IF CHRIST BE NOT RAISED, your faith is vain; YE ARE YET IN YOUR SINS. {Caps added}. Christ rose not as victim but as our High Priest to enter into the Holy of Holies made without hands with his atoning blood taking his seat at the right hand of God the Father. Plus the sacrificed lamb had to be eaten.

 

[jlhargus]

racing59: I understand the Bosom of Abraham, and find it possible that the thief went there before Heaven, but you’ll notice that both I and prodigalson1, believe that he is in Heaven, whether it was with some form of baptism or not! This is another one of those stories that magnifies the glory and power of God! One of His first displays of grace was in the Garden of Eden, when He clothed Adam and Eve, even after they sinned! Kinda like what He does with us, huh?

JL: Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, …] For three days bodily dead, but alive in soul Christ, along with the thief, whom Christ promised would be with him that day in paradise, descended into Abraham’s Bosom, the paradise chamber of Hell=English, Hades=Greek, Sheol=Hebrew, where all the souls of the OT just were held, as heaven was not opened till Christ ascended in a cloud, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, AND A CLOUD hid him from their sight.] With that OT great cloud of witneses, Hb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,] and all the saints in heaven will come with Christ when he returns, Lk21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.]

Lazarus also went to the paradise chamber of Hell and was comforted there, Lk16:25. The rich man descended into the torment chamber of Hell, where all evil souls went before Christ and will continue to go till Hell is thrown into the lake of fire. Christ preached to the spirits 1Pt3:19&1Pt4:6, in Hell, the spirit world of the bodily dead.

The OT, just, were captives in paradise, Abraham’s Bosom, till Christ took their souls home were they wait the resurrection of their bodies in the end. Even when one is marooned on a paradise island, he is a captive, he cannot leave that place, till rescued by his savior.

We know Chirst took the spirits of just men when he assended into heaven. Eph 4:8 “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) We now see the just souls in heaven with our Lord, Hb 12:22-23 you have come to the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem to countless angels and to THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT.

[Hb10:1 THE LAW is only A SHADOW of the good things that are coming—NOT THE REALITIES themselves. For this reason IT CAN NEVER, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. …2…3… 4 because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR the BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS TO TAKE AWAY SINS.] No one went to heaven before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord. Because only the atoning blood of Christ can take away sin and make just men perfect.

 

[1beleevr]

Hi jl: You remind me a lot of prodigalson1, in the way you meticulously prepare your posts, and research all of the scriptures; very commendable:thumbsup: Whether the two of you are always right is another issue altogether!“IT IS FINISHED”, as spoken by our Messiah, can mean many things to many people, and not everyone(especially us non-catholics) will accept your portrayal of what it means! Jesus had an earthly mission, during the 33 years that He wore flesh. When He uttered this infamous statement mere seconds before He died, I for one believe that this indicated that His earthly(flesh) mission was complete! We know that He went int the bowels of the earth, and appeared many times to His followers and others, and we know that He continues to do work in us! One time, one sacrifice, one love, one Way!

 

[jlhargus]

Hi jl: You remind me a lot of prodigalson1, in the way you meticulously prepare your posts, and research all of the scriptures; very commendable:thumbsup: Whether the two of you are always right is another issue altogether!“IT IS FINISHED”, as spoken by our Messiah, can mean many things to many people, and not everyone(especially us non-catholics) will accept your portrayal of what it means! Jesus had an earthly mission, during the 33 years that He wore flesh. When He uttered this infamous statement mere seconds before He died, I for one believe that this indicated that His earthly(flesh) mission was complete! We know that He went int the bowels of the earth, and appeared many times to His followers and others, and we know that He continues to do work in us! One time, one sacrifice, one love, one Way!

JL: Hi 1beleevr glad to see you are still around. Yes I do take time with my posts, which is why I don’t post often. I agree, “It is finished” can have many meanings, it is not a doctrine of faith as to what exactly he meant. I read somewhere but could not find it, when the OT priest slit the throat of the lamb, they said, “it is finished”.

 

[1beleevr]

Empty Cross+Empty grave=Empty promises fulfilled!! Hallelujah, because He rose we live! Seems to me that someone, for the life of me I can’t remember; said that the Holy Spirit was only with the apostles, and was passed down to priests today! In Acts 2:38, is Peter speaking to the crowd, when he says,“Repent of your sins, and turn to God; and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, to show that you have received forgiveness for your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit!”? Does this mean, in the 21st century, that using Peter’s example, those who repent and turn to God for forgiveness, are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? That is what I believe:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

I guess we won’t know for sure, exactly where the thief went after he died, until THAT day! I believe that the power of God, makes all things possible, and that He could make the promise to the thief, that He made!

 

[1beleevr]

I know there has been discussion about whether or not, us average Joes, can be led by, and directed by the Holy Spirit! I for one, as I grow daily in my walk with Christ, know that the Holy Spirit gives me discernment, understanding and guidance:thumbsup: It’s as if He is that voice, that says,“Don’t go there!”:thumbsupeter, when preaching to the crowd, told them(and us) that if we repent and turn to God for the forgiveness of our sins, be baptized in the Name of Jesus, we can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Our God is an awesome God, He reigns from Heaven above, with Wisdom, Power and Love, Our God is an awesome God!"

 

[guanophore]

Whether the two of you are always right is another issue altogether!“IT IS FINISHED”, as spoken by our Messiah, can mean many things to many people, and not everyone(especially us non-catholics) will accept your portrayal of what it means! Jesus had an earthly mission, during the 33 years that He wore flesh. When He uttered this infamous statement mere seconds before He died, I for one believe that this indicated that His earthly(flesh) mission was complete! We know that He went int the bowels of the earth, and appeared many times to His followers and others, and we know that He continues to do work in us! One time, one sacrifice, one love, one Way!

Indeed, Christ was clear that He came into this world to give His life as a ransom for many. However, some people interpret this phrase (I would not characterize it as “infamous”) to mean that everything pertaining to our salvation was completed. This particular interpretation is frought with heresies.

Empty Cross+Empty grave=Empty promises fulfilled!! Hallelujah, because He rose we live! Seems to me that someone, for the life of me I can’t remember; said that the Holy Spirit was only with the apostles, and was passed down to priests today!

If someone said that, they were in error. God can give the HS to whomever He wants. The gift of the HS was with the Apostles, and is passed down through the gift of ordination, but the HS is not limited to this.

In Acts 2:38, is Peter speaking to the crowd, when he says,“Repent of your sins, and turn to God; and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, to show that you have received forgiveness for your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit!”? Does this mean, in the 21st century, that using Peter’s example, those who repent and turn to God for forgiveness, are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? That is what I believe:thumbsup:

Of course the Church has always taught that those who follow the Apostolic instruction will receive the gift of the HS. However, one must be mindful of what those who heard Peter next did. They obeyed him, and after being baptized, committed themselves to the Apostles teaching and the prayers. This is the part that is often missing today. Those that come to faith are separated from the Apostolic teaching, and many believe it cannot be found outside of the Scriptures.

I know there has been discussion about whether or not, us average Joes, can be led by, and directed by the Holy Spirit! I for one, as I grow daily in my walk with Christ, know that the Holy Spirit gives me discernment, understanding and guidance:thumbsup: It’s as if He is that voice, that says,“Don’t go there!”:thumbsupeter, when preaching to the crowd, told them(and us) that if we repent and turn to God for the forgiveness of our sins, be baptized in the Name of Jesus, we can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Our God is an awesome God, He reigns from Heaven above, with Wisdom, Power and Love, Our God is an awesome God!"

Anyone who says that an individual cannot be led and directed by the HS has departed from the Apostolic teaching. However, the HS does not engender division and separation in the Body of Christ. To the extent this has occurred, it is not from the HS.