Protestants listen up

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Hercules253 said:
So does Israel…

Isaiah 66:7-9
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"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son…Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children…“Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God. "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; *
**
Mic 4: 9-10 **
Has your counselor perished, that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor? Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor…out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel…Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth…

Ok, so whats your point? Israel also went into labor and conceived a child, the Messiah
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Born of the virgin Mary.
Hercules253 said:
According to Elvis, she represents the Church too and its considered a personal interpretation if you believe otherwise…so who’s really telling the truth? Might I add that if you didn’t get this, “you’re ignorant to Scriptures” according to Elvis…so what does that make you?
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It makes me above ad hominem worded statements intended to inflame as opposed to providing a source to support your view. :rolleyes:

Seriously, if you read the Haydock Commentary and what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say in my last post, you will see the dual symbolism of the scripture. Remember, I referred to the Church as the Bride of the Lamb, or Christ, in one of my previous posts. You appear to want to twist our words, as it appears you do scriptures, only we’re here to explain what we mean. 😛

Now, can we stop the name calling, innuendos, condescending tones and everything else that does not help one side of this discussion or the other, with the exception it invalidates an entire argument by anyone that chooses to go that route? If you want to continue, please show me where that type behaviour is acceptable according to scriptures.
 
The interpretations I have heard Reformed give of the “woman clothed with the sun” represents Israel. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes. Especially they will note the part talking about the “other children” of the woman.

I have to admit, both the Catholic and Reformed intepretations have merit. One thing to keep in mind, this kind of language can have multiple meanings at the same time.
 
Hercules253 said:
Ok, Elvisman…no need to excommunicate me…its seems like the Spanish Inquisition meets the internet…just kidding…ok, with all jokes, arrogance, and sarcasm to the side, i do respect you! You are educated indeed and a fellow in Christ…but I must do defend myself…

So you were asking me how I came up with my own interpretation? The answer is I didn’t. I read in it a few Bibles and their side commentaries. I will site the references but I wanted to point out to you that not one of them mentions the woman in Rev 12 as Mary…
As I mentioned earlier, I did provide rational evidence on why I believe it’s Israel and the Christians (the early church) who were followers out of Israel and not Mary. The only thing that I didn’t agree on with you (and neither does the rest of my sources) is that it also implies Mary. So here they are:

1. The New English Bible with the Apocrypha Oxford Study Edition New York Oxford Press- Sandmel

page 323 “Here the woman represents Isreal from whom Jesus sprang”

This is the Bible I have in my hand right now

2. Haper’s Bible Commentary - with Apocypha] -with SBL (Society of Bible Literature)
Mays Harper 7 Row Publisher
-The Society of Biblical Literature is the oldest and largest international scholarly membership organization in the field of biblical studies. Founded in 1880

*page 1212- “it is natural to understand that the woman of vv. 1-6 is Mary…yet she seems to personify Zion - Israel ] or the church” *

This is the other Bible that I have in my hand as well

3. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

[1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.

4. Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
*The woman represented the early Christians, church *

5. John Darby’s synopsis
The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby.

“The first symbolical person, subject of the prophecy and result of all God’s ways in it, is a woman clothed with the sun, having a crown of twelve stars, and the moon under her feet. It is Israel, or Jerusalem as its centre as in the purpose of God (compare Is 9:6 and Ps 87:6).”

6. Forerunner Commentary
Rather, chapter 12 is a highly condensed history of the true church within Israel, the woman…It is, first of all, an Israelitish church, but its real roots are in heaven—where the sun, moon, and stars are. God is figuratively, symbolically pointing in the direction of the origins of the true church."

7. John Wesley’s Notes
A woman - The emblem of the church of Christ, as she is originally of Israel…
who also carry the moon in their ensigns; and the crown of twelve stars, the twelve tribes of Israel; …

There you go. Not one of them states it the woman in Rev 12 is Mary so I’m not the only that disagrees. Among my sources are Protestants and Catholics. My point was that the woman did not represent Mary and I just provided a few credible sources that is in total alignment. I’m pretty sure that is within reasoning. But when you say I use “moronic expressions” and “ignorance” that is OK with everyone else? But if I say otherwise, I’m personally attacking you?🤷…hypocrisy? this truly must be a Catholic forum
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**Prodigal Son1 posted before I got a chance to, but his point is well-made. You can search, many bible commentaries and find different interpretations. **

You said earlier that the ONLY interpretation was that the Woman was Israel - and you were wrong, according to the majority of Protestant theologians. Now, you’re changing your tune and including the Church as another symbol for the Woman.
Most Protestant theologians will accept Israel and the Church but not Mary - even though SHE is the one who bore Jesus - God himself.

As for my charges of “moronic expressions” and “ignorance” - it’s because you come on these forums with both guns blazing and hurling insults. That’s what I find moronic. Ad hominem attacks have no place here. I can tell you’re passionate about what you believe - but stick to the topics without resorting to rudeness.
 
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Prodigal_Son1:
You know, you amuse me.

I showed valid reasons why I think the woman in Revelation is Israel with followers as Christians (the early Church) and not Mary

You only and specifically said it was Mary and NOT the church…

Elvis man says the woman symbolically represents all 3 entities (Church, Mary, and Christians)

…we all have 3 different interpretations but only I get attacked by being labeled “ignorant” using “moronic expressions” according to Elvis man and no one says anything about that. the funny thing is that you both don’t agree with each other but nothing is said about it…double standards and hypocrisy (did you learn that from Scriptures as well?)…this forum definitely demonstrates its true Catholic Nature.

There is something seriously wrong with this forum…I’m out
 
CWBetts said:
Sola Scriptura is a false teaching that no one believed in the early Church.
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hey there cw betts, how are you? that is correctamundo (did i spell that right?) anyway, it still is happening today, huh?
 
Hercules253 said:
You know, you amuse me.

I showed valid reasons why I think the woman in Revelation is Israel with followers as Christians (the early Church) and not Mary

You only and specifically said it was Mary and NOT the church…
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Prodigal_Son1 said:
The woman was Mary. The bride of Christ is His Church. Through Mary’s offspring we are all born again, into His Church, or the kingdom of God. Christ’s offsprings are Mary’s offsprings, just as Jesus came from the seed of David…

You have to remember, John did not understand the implications of all his vision.

It’s not a contradiction, but a difference of interpretations that separates your view and the Catholic view. The Catholic interpretation is 2000 years old. Your interpretation came since the reformation of the 1500s. :eek:
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I apologize if I did not articulate my thoughts well enough for you to understand, but I agree that there are multiple meanings, which includes Mary, mother of Christ! Maybe we should discuss Matthew 24 and see if you see any multiple meanings in that chapter?
Hercules253 said:
Elvis man says the woman symbolically represents all 3 entities (Church, Mary, and Christians)

…we all have 3 different interpretations but only I get attacked by being labeled “ignorant” using “moronic expressions” according to Elvis man and no one says anything about that. the funny thing is that you both don’t agree with each other but nothing is said about it…double standards and hypocrisy (did you learn that from Scriptures as well?)…this forum definitely demonstrates its true Catholic Nature.

There is something seriously wrong with this forum…I’m out
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I agree with Elvis fully and you partially. Partially, because you exclude Mary.

**Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne. **

She, the woman, brought forth a man child, Christ. This trimmed out the Church, as the Church did not bring forth Christ, Christ brought forth the Church. The Church is the new Israel through His fulfillment of the old covenant and the institution of the new covenant.

This forum is going to demonstrate it’s Catholic Nature, because it is a CATHOLIC forum.

I haven’t called you any names, but you make your snide innuendos towards me, simply because I won’t fully agree with you. Which brings me to the question, what is your purpose, or goal, for being on a Catholic forum, if it’s not to discuss Catholic theology? :onpatrol:
 
Elvis man, you explicitly stated that where I am getting my sources from and wrongfully judge me as if I am making this up because its not found in Protestant doctrines…and thus I answered you by showing both Protestants AND your own Catholic people’s sources…and then you keep going on by now continuing to criticizing these sources! …that’s your problem if you don’t agree with all of them, not mine.

You then state that I change my tune about including the Church now…
well let me clarify myself on what I believe…the woman represents Israel, Not the Church…the followers were Christians (belonging to the Church or course) that came out of Israel…

Prodigal Son1 then changes his tune to now include the “dual meaning” of the Church as well when he was clearly insinuating that it was NOT the church but Mary the whole entire time? You were quick to point me out but did you point him out Elvisman? Of course not!
The shows the person you are…self righteous
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Seriously, if you read the Haydock Commentary and what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say in my last post, you will see the dual symbolism of the scripture. Remember, I referred to the Church as the Bride of the Lamb, or Christ, in one of my previous posts.
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The funny thing is that it STILL contradicts what you say…Prodigal Son1 says dual symbolism (Church and Mary) but Elvis boy says polysymbolism (Church, Mary AND Israel):confused:
elvisman said:
polyvalent symbolism. This is where symbols have more than one meaning. Revelation uses this type of symbolism. Case in point, the seven heads of the beast are considered to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).
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Elvisman got this from a little cut in paste action in the forum’s own Catholic Answers website.
THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12 By James Akin
*
Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.*
(Edited)

The title of this forum was “Protestants Listen up” which definitely caught my attention and I highly doubt its just for the Catholic audience…I did listen. (Edited)
 
Hercules253 said:
Elvis man, you explicitly stated that where I am getting my sources from…and thus I answered you…and then you keep going to continue criticizing me after I established my point by picking on the sources…that’s your problem if you don’t agree with all of them, not mine.

You then state that I change my tune about including the Church now…
well let me clarify myself on what I believe…the woman represents Israel, Not the Church…the followers were Christians (belonging to the Church or course) that came out of Israel…

Prodi-kid then changes his tune to now include the “dual meaning” of the Church as well when he was clearly insinuating that it was NOT the church but Mary the whole entire time? You were quick to point me out but did you point him out Elvisman? Of course not!
The shows the person you are…

The funny thing is that it STILL contradicts what you say…Prodi kid says dual symbolism (Church and Mary) but Elvis boy says polysymbolism (Chruch, Mary AND Israel)

Elvisman got this from a little cut in paste in the forum’s own Catholic Answers website.
THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12 By James Akin
*
Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.*

Like I said, I’m out…I might be border line offensive and I’m still learning His Word everyday but I’m not displaying by hypocrisy and defense for it!!!
What are you guys?..Dungeon and Dragon buddies? That’s sad:confused:
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Your turning the argument into semantics is sad, in my opinion. I did use the term “dual” and qualified it further by stating plainly “multiple”.

While you did say it represented Israel, your sources stated Church. I didn’t bother correcting every little detail to you, because I view the new Israel as the Church.

Now, I’m the Prodi kid, huh? I’m 54 years old and find your choice of words to use of my username to be just another distraction from the discussion at hand. You have avoided several of my posts through this thread, when it didn’t fit your theology, but clearly came from scriptures. I cannot see any honest contribution to this discussion from such a person that uses those type tactics.

Now, are you going to address my last question in my previous post? If you’re not here to discuss Catholic theology, what is your purpose, or goal, for being here?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Your turning the argument into semantics is sad, in my opinion. I did use the term “dual” and qualified it further by stating plainly “multiple”.
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ummm you’re timing was a little too late…after the fact …
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Now, are you going to address my last question in my previous post? If you’re not here to discuss Catholic theology, what is your purpose, or goal, for being here?
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Have you not read the title? “Protestants listen up”? It caught my attention and I highly doubt its specifically for the Catholic audience…why else are we all in a forum? To exchange thoughts, rationalize, challenge, learn new ideas, and debate…I admit, I learned a few things…well kind of…
 
Hercules253 said:
ummm you’re timing was a little too late…after the fact …

Have you not read the title? “Protestants listen up”? It caught my attention and I highly doubt its specifically for the Catholic audience…why else are we all in a forum? To exchange thoughts, rationalize, challenge, learn new ideas, and debate…I admit, I learned a few things…well kind of…
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The timing was a little too late?

In this type fora it’s hard enough to have a discussion. As I’ve stated, several times, I provided a scriptural argument in this thread that, you not only did not respond too in a timely fashion, you avoided all together. Now when I have tried to clarify my statements, through a chain of posts, it’s a little too late? Your expectations are too high for this type fora of communication, in my opinion.

I have at least made attempts to clarify my position, as best as I can. You have not only tried to hold the same position, even though the sources you provided widened that position abit, you took to calling names and making innuendos, as well as misusing my username, which I view as lacking of charitability required of all Christians. This it the third time I will ask, where is that type behaviour taught in scriptures?

In my opinion, the exchange of thoughts, rationalizations, challenges, and learning exclude the type posts you’ve sunk to using. As I stated, it totally invalidates any argument you could make in my eyes.
 
rinnie said:
You know as a kid my dad always said go to the Blessed Mother. She know’s pain, She saw her son hung on a cross. No one has sufferered like the Blessed Mother.

As A Mother every day those words come to life for me.

Go to her. She does not have the Power of Christ but she has the love of Christ to help you.

She is the MOTHER of GOD. Do you not believe that she can help you. Please quit the nonsense of saying she can’t do this or that.

GOD picked her. Give her your pain. give her your problems. And believe if God could have called on her to take the pain of seeing her son suffer, she can help you also.

Go to your Mother she is the Mother that is perfect. Try it . I swear to you she can help you.

What Son or daughter who loves their Mother can refuse her. Don’t you think Jesus is the same!

Trust her! God gave her to you as he was hanging on the Cross. Trust her, as God trusted her!
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is this what all catholics believe or just some?
 
Prodigal Son, I’m starting fresh out of respect…Ok so please tell me what issues I haven’t addressed and I will get to it in a timely manner.

Remember, I cant keep up responding to all my fans:D when they are bombarding all at the same time…it would take me hours

But seriously, what questions have I neglected? I will try to get to them as soon as possible
 
Just wondering, what verses do ya’ll use for the “Mother of God” teaching?
 
Hercules253 said:
Elvis man, you explicitly stated that where I am getting my sources from and wrongfully judge me as if I am making this up because its not found in Protestant doctrines…and thus I answered you by showing both Protestants AND your own Catholic people’s sources…and then you keep going on by now continuing to criticizing these sources! …that’s your problem if you don’t agree with all of them, not mine.

You then state that I change my tune about including the Church now…
well let me clarify myself on what I believe…the woman represents Israel, Not the Church…the followers were Christians (belonging to the Church or course) that came out of Israel…

Prodi-kid then changes his tune to now include the “dual meaning” of the Church as well when he was clearly insinuating that it was NOT the church but Mary the whole entire time? You were quick to point me out but did you point him out Elvisman? Of course not!
The shows the person you are…self righteous

The funny thing is that it STILL contradicts what you say…Prodi kid says dual symbolism (Church and Mary) but Elvis boy says polysymbolism (Chruch, Mary AND Israel):confused:

Elvisman got this from a little cut in paste action in the forum’s own Catholic Answers website.
THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12 By James Akin

Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

Like I said, I’m out…I might be border line offensive and I’m still learning His Word everyday but I’m not displaying my hypocrisy and certainly not for the defense of it!!!
What are you guys?..Dungeon and Dragon buddies? That’s sad:😦

The title of this forum was “Protestants Listen up” which definitely caught my attention and I highly doubt its just for the Catholic audience…I did listen…its just hypocrisy is the only thing I heard…and its not the first time in Catholicism…later folks!
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(Edited)

Secondly - you wrongly use the term, “polsymbolism”. I thought you might be confused by the big words and, sadly, I was right.
**The correct term is, "polyvalent symbolism".

Bottom line is that you’re all over the board on this one, pal. You’ve taken several positions, then you show as “proof” of the Catholic side, the United States Conference of Bishops “position”. This is one of the American Standard Bible’s footnotes that is on the bishops website. The rest of the polyvalent symbolisms (sorry for the big words again:rolleyes:) are available in any number of Cathoic Bibles.**

Bottom line - get to KNOW the word - don’t just toss it around out of context.
(Edited)
 
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