Protestants listen up

[OnlyJesus]

dear Prodigal, my point i think *is *clear and i believe you are purposefully being obtuse.

There is something amiss when the “Mother Church” fails to mention Christ in efforts to gain new members.

When did any of the original apostles fail to preach Christ. Belief in Christ = a member of the body of Christ. The Lord adds to his church by the Holy Spirit. The Church is not greater than its Head which is Christ.

 

[Louie1983]

At the top of this forum page is a link that says HOW TO BECOME A CATHOLIC. When I click it, i get this:

Read all of that. Not one word about believing in Christ. Not one mention of GOD. No mention of the Lord. Not one word about how to be saved or the plan of salvation. Just how to become “Catholic”. How to commune with the Catholic Church.

OnlyJesus, what’s your point?

are you holding the fact that because a paragraph on this website doesn’t mention God (which it does by the way, it mentions the eucharist) that catholic faith is wrong?

Seriously, this is very amatuer. When you are baptised into the faith a part of the process is to acknowledge christ as your lord and saviour and the holy trinity!!, you are accepting the truths the catholic church teach also. Who cares what this website explains (no offence to the website, it’s just your argument is pretty weak) The faith itself is full of praise, worship and honour for god! Our credd even states "we believe in one lord, jesus christ, the only son of god…) if you want to question some aspects of the faith then look at what the fiath actually teaches and not what a webite page displays. Oh and by the way, there is a library section on this site that has plenty of information for you also.

If you want to know how to become a catholic then i encourage you to read the catechism of the catholic church or simply ask a priest!

 

[Hisalone]

dear Prodigal, my point i think *is *clear and i believe you are purposefully being obtuse.

There is something amiss when the “Mother Church” fails to mention Christ in efforts to gain new members.

When did any of the original apostles fail to preach Christ. Belief in Christ = a member of the body of Christ. The Lord adds to his church by the Holy Spirit. The Church is not greater than its Head which is Christ.

The Church is a set of all believers. It is not an institution. The true gospel is the good news of Christ that is what the apostles taught not “The Church”

 

[almightyservant]

At the top of this forum page is a link that says HOW TO BECOME A CATHOLIC. When I click it, i get this:…

Read all of that. Not one word about believing in Christ. Not one mention of GOD. No mention of the Lord. Not one word about how to be saved or the plan of salvation. Just how to become “Catholic”. How to commune with the Catholic Church.

Well, there are the words “Christian” and “Eucharist”.
Christian = Member of Christ = A person union with God
Eucharist = Jesus Christ = Lord = God

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

dear Prodigal, my point i think *is *clear and i believe you are purposefully being obtuse.

There is something amiss when the “Mother Church” fails to mention Christ in efforts to gain new members.

When did any of the original apostles fail to preach Christ. Belief in Christ = a member of the body of Christ. The Lord adds to his church by the Holy Spirit. The Church is not greater than its Head which is Christ.

So, you copied and pasted a portion of the page the link takes you too, as if that makes a point?

Christ it the head of the Church. One must become a Christian, as the page states, to become a Catholic. Who do Christians follow?

Here is a line from a portion you did not copy and paste.

During this period, the catechumens are formally presented with the Apostles’ Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, which they will recite on the night they are initiated.

Below, please find the Profession of Faith.

Nicene Creed - Profession of Faith

**We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen. **

Below is a passage from one of St. Paul’s letter of correction to the Church of Corinth.

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

Here’s more you neglected to copy and paste to make your “clear” point.

Peace with God

The sacrament of baptism removes all sins committed prior to it, but since Christians have already been baptized, it is necessary for them to confess mortal sins committed since baptism before receiving confirmation and the Eucharist.

In some cases, this can be difficult due to a large number of years between the Christian’s baptism and reception into the Catholic Church. In such cases, the candidate should confess the mortal sins he can remember by kind and, to the extent possible, indicate how often such sins were committed. As always with the sacrament of reconciliation, the absolution covers any mortal sins that could not be remembered, so long as the recipient intended to repent of all mortal sins.

Christians coming into the Church should receive the sacrament of reconciliation before their reception into the Church (there is no established point for when they should do this) to ensure that they are in a state of grace when they are received and confirmed. Their formation in the faith should stress that frequent confession is part of Catholic life: “The celebration of the sacrament of reconciliation with candidates for reception into full communion is to be carried out at a time prior to and distinct from the celebration of the rite of reception. As part of the formation of such candidates, they should be encouraged in the frequent celebration of this sacrament” (NSC 36).

The Christian fully enters the Church by profession of faith and formal reception. For the profession of faith, the candidate says, “I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God.”

The bishop or priest then formally receives the Christian into the Church by saying, “[Name], the Lord receives you into the Catholic Church. His loving kindness has led you here, so that in the unity of the Holy Spirit you may have full communion with us in the faith that you have professed in the presence of his family.”

I’ll be honest with you and say, I found your “clear” insinuation misleading and offensive.

 

[Louie1983]

The Church is a set of all believers. It is not an institution. The true gospel is the good news of Christ that is what the apostles taught not “The Church”

Hi Hisalone,

the apostles were the church! They were the apostles of christ and were given the holy spirit to preach to all nations baptising them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit. The church isn’t just a building that has pretty pictures, it is the living the true and living traditions/teachings that has been passed down for 2000 years that is the church! Along ofcourse with the bible, the eucharist and the promise from Jesus that he will be with his church until the end of time.

 

[MDK]

dear Prodigal, my point i think *is *clear and i believe you are purposefully being obtuse.

Complete mischaracterization on both counts. You claim falsehoods are truth, and truths are falsehoods, because you have no distinction between the two, not following the authority who teaches without error. Prodigal is being truthful in responding. Unfortunately, some are too far away from the truth to recognize it.

There is something amiss when the “Mother Church” fails to mention Christ in efforts to gain new members.

The Catholic Church is all about Christ and everything is for Christ, Who is the Head of His Catholic Church. It’s so obvious to anyone who is fair minded and has their eyes open.

The irony here is that the false “churches” born after the Reformation have to try to project an image of being about Christ (although the Theology is inauthentic due to being man made), because they have no substance. They really don’t know Jesus’ revealed truths very well, if at all. In the final analysis of their ecclesial community, they really don’t understand nor really teach truth about Jesus, but try to reduce what is Heavenly into someothing very Earthly and confined in very limited human capability. Contrarily, the authentic Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, which is humble in focusing on the true Savior and teaching correctly.

When did any of the original apostles fail to preach Christ. Belief in Christ = a member of the body of Christ. The Lord adds to his church by the Holy Spirit. The Church is not greater than its Head which is Christ.

No true Catholic said the Church was greater, and the Church certainly does not teach this, it’s just a prejudicial view held by the ignorant. The Church teaches the most profound and true beliefs in Christ, many more than you are willing to even entertain at this time.

The Lord does add to His Church by the Holy Spirit. Jesus only promised the Holy Spirit would guide His one Church. People become members of the Church through Baptism of water and the Spirit. Secondly, there was no guarantee of protection from teaching error to any individual outside His Church or any of the post Reformation man made ecclesial communities, which can’t be called “churches” in the proper sense.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Complete mischaracterization on both counts. You claim falsehoods are truth, because you have no distinction between the two, not following the authority who teaches without error. Prodigal is being truthful in responding. Unfortunately, some are too far away from the truth to recognize it.

The Catholic Church is all about Christ and everything is for Christ, Who is the Head of His Catholic Church. It’s so obvious to anyone who is fair minded and has their eyes open.

The irony here is that the false “churches” born after the Reformation have to make a big deal out of advertizing Jesus, because they have no substance. In the final analysis of their ecclesial community, they really don’t understand nor really teach truth about Jesus, but include many falsehoods.

No true Catholic said the Church was greater, and the Church certainly does not teach this, it’s just a prejudicial view held by the ignorant. The Church teaches the most profound and true beliefs in Christ, many more than you are willing to even entertain at this time.

The Lord does add to His Church by the Holy Spirit. Jesus only promised the Holy Spirit would guide His one Church. People become members of the Church through Baptism of water and the Spirit. Secondly, there was no guarantee of protection from teaching error to any individual outside His Church or any of the post Reformation man made ecclesial communities, which can’t be called “churches” in the proper sense.

 

[1beleevr]

MDK: Well, hello there; so nice to hear from you! Was reading an earlier post, and someone said,"Let Him lead you home!"t made me think of my final destination:Heaven! Like Paul says in Philippians 3:20, “We are citizens of Heaven, where Christ Jesus lives!” I was talking to someone the other day, telling about how wonderful it ewas to have a personal on-on-one relationship with Jesus, and how everyday, you can walk and talk with Him:thumbsup:

 

[Louie1983]

MDK: Well, hello there; so nice to hear from you! Was reading an earlier post, and someone said,"Let Him lead you home!"t made me think of my final destination:Heaven! Like Paul says in Philippians 3:20, “We are citizens of Heaven, where Christ Jesus lives!” I was talking to someone the other day, telling about how wonderful it ewas to have a personal on-on-one relationship with Jesus, and how everyday, you can walk and talk with Him:thumbsup:

Truly!

 

[MDK]

MDK: Well, hello there; so nice to hear from you! Was reading an earlier post, and someone said,"Let Him lead you home!"t made me think of my final destination:Heaven! Like Paul says in Philippians 3:20, “We are citizens of Heaven, where Christ Jesus lives!” I was talking to someone the other day, telling about how wonderful it ewas to have a personal on-on-one relationship with Jesus, and how everyday, you can walk and talk with Him:thumbsup:

I would rejoice if you actually had an authentic and true relationship with Christ on His terms. It’s unlearned in every facet of history, philosophy, theology, and doctrine, to assume that the true teachings and the best way to have the relationship with Christ would not be in the Catholic Church that He built specifically for His New Covenant family. You say you want this relationship, and even that you have it… yet, you criticize His teachings, His Church, and His true doctrine and Sacraments… So, how can you have a relationship with someone you really don’t know and due to this, you criticize that which you are ignorant of? It’s very sad that the pessimism of Bible -alone folks clouds their abilities to see the truth. The pessimism is in not actually believing Christ, but believing themselves in what they want to say about Christ. It’s a bit arrogant to assume that Catholics don’t have this relationship by following the way Christ set things up. You want to do things your own way instead of Christ’s way, and tell us we’re wrong. Since you have no possible way of really knowing the truth without error (because you reject the authority established by Christ for this), you promote falsehoods as though they were true, and you condemn truth as though it were false. It’s all done based on what you have decided, but sadly not what Christ established.

It is also arrogant and presumptive to tell Christ you are going to Heaven. You still must persevere to get there, and rejecting Christ’s teachings in favor of your own, and rejecting His Sacraments are certainly not helping you. You may be so prejudiced, as to be considered invincibly ignorant, which could help your case for Heaven. When Christ separates the sheep from the goats, I hope you do make it with the sheep. So far, you act as a goat, rejecting the pen Christ the Good Shepherd made for His sheep. Stealing our written word, you try to fabricate your own pen and call yourself a sheep, condemning the pen made by Christ.

Christ is really, truly and substantially present to His Church in the the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist. When we eat His Body, and drink His Blood as He commanded us to do, it really doesn’t get any more personal than that.

 

[OnlyJesus]

good morning! re: rock

the word “rock” is synonymous with “gods”. The word rock is mentioned 128 in both testaments. Here are a few: You can find the rest by going to biblegateway.com and enter rock as a keyword…you can choose from a list of many translations…not sure any of them are Catholic tho.

**
Deuteronomy 32:37**
And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Rock is symbolic of Christ. But not all rocks are literally Christ.

the word “Rock”, uppercase R, denotes Christ our God.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the **Rock **of his salvation.

Deuteronomy 32:18
Of the **Rock **that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deuteronomy 32:30
How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

Deuteronomy 32:31
For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

1 Samuel 2:2
There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

And in some verses “rock” with the lowercase r also denotes Christ and God as in the rock that Moses struck, that was Christ.
**
2 Samuel 22:2**
And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

And this one is very interesting:
2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And let’s not forget another ROCK called STONE:

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Read in matthew 7:24 about Jesus who talks about ROCK: house built upon a ROCK and in v 25 the floods came but the house did not fall b/c it was founded upon a ROCK.

Then onto Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I’ve read many times in this forum Catholics point to this scripture that Peter is the rock that Christ spoke of. Peter is not the rock or foundation of the church, but the ROCK is Christ himself.

Here are the words of our precious Lord and Savior, our foundation for the church of Christ, that is the Body of Christ:

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Acts 4:11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

**One more, FOUNDATION:

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Christ is our Rock, our Stone, our Foundation.**

 

[OnlyJesus]

Prodigal: Praise God for youe diligence and persistence in debating, researching and knowledge! It is obvious that you have a passion for the catholic church, and lifestyle! You did a lot of reading of the scriptures; and provided a well thought out position, on whether or not man is capable of forgiving sins!

A lovely thing to say to Prodigal and very true of Prodigal!

 

[1beleevr]

MDK: I would challenge you, to point out, in any of my posts, where I specifically stated, that catholics could not, or do not have a personal, one-on-one relationship, with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! I was merely rejoicing in the fact that, through Christ’s finished work on the Cross, I am able to have that relationship! God reconciled His chilren back to Himself, through His Son:thumbsup:And He(Jesus) confirms to me daily, of my security in the salvation that He has richly offered and I have accepted! And then you(among other catholics) choose to challenge that salvation, because I don’t belong to your religion! It is attitudes like this, that have kept me out of the “chosen” church! For instance, we have debated the issue of confessing sins to a mere mortal man, both sides presenting scripture for and against; and the bottom line, is this:while there may be scriptural evidence, there is no command, or mandate I cannot find, in the Bible that you claim to have written(27 books, at least), where Jesus directs, or commands us to confess our sins to a priest(and please don’t quote John 20:23, or James 5:16 again). To me, it is narrow-minded and borderline blasphemous to keep God in a box(sanctuaryand make it seem that one can only meet Him there! And I hope that you are also counted among the sheep! ALL believers in Jesus Christ, who have been baptized, and live for Him, in service and obedience, will gather in Heaven:thumbsup: Tell me something, when was the last time, you sat with someone you didn’t know, and witness to them about Jesus? In my ministries, I do this on a weekly basis! Jesus’s words in Matthew 28:19-20, apply to all Christians, not just the apostles! We, as disciples, are to “GO”, and make more disciples, baptizing them in the Name of the Father(HOLY FATHER,GOD), and the Holy Spirit! Sadly, attitudes, such as yours, are what drives people away from the catholic church, instead of drawing them to it! God bless you, my brother in Christ!

 

[1beleevr]

Do we have the authority to, and should we condemn others? Does Romans 8:1, apply, when we feel the need to condemn actions, or lack of obedience?

 

[racing59]

good morning! re: rock

the word “rock” is synonymous with “gods”. The word rock is mentioned 128 in both testaments. Here are a few: You can find the rest by going to biblegateway.com and enter rock as a keyword…you can choose from a list of many translations…not sure any of them are Catholic tho.

**
Deuteronomy 32:37**
And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Rock is symbolic of Christ. But not all rocks are literally Christ.

the word “Rock”, uppercase R, denotes Christ our God.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the **Rock **of his salvation.

Deuteronomy 32:18
Of the **Rock **that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deuteronomy 32:30
How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

Deuteronomy 32:31
For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

1 Samuel 2:2
There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

And in some verses “rock” with the lowercase r also denotes Christ and God as in the rock that Moses struck, that was Christ.
**
2 Samuel 22:2**
And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

And this one is very interesting:
2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And let’s not forget another ROCK called STONE:

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Read in matthew 7:24 about Jesus who talks about ROCK: house built upon a ROCK and in v 25 the floods came but the house did not fall b/c it was founded upon a ROCK.

Then onto Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I’ve read many times in this forum Catholics point to this scripture that Peter is the rock that Christ spoke of. Peter is not the rock or foundation of the church, but the ROCK is Christ himself.

Here are the words of our precious Lord and Savior, our foundation for the church of Christ, that is the Body of Christ:

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Acts 4:11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

**One more, FOUNDATION:

Isaiah 28:16**
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Christ is our Rock, our Stone, our Foundation.

In my opinion, you are actually making an argument for RCC. Jesus is the “Rock” so it would make since to me that he would pass this name onto his succesor for his church on earth .Chaning Simon’s name to Peter(from Reed to Rock). A Reed, blows in the wind and a Rock, is a foundation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It seems the topic of discussion has yet changed again. Some are turning over every “rock” in what seems to be an attempt to discredit Catholicism (pun intended ).

The incident in Matthew took place at Caesarea Philippi, so named by Herod Philip. However, it was originally Panion, the city of Pan…dedicated to the Greek god Pan. The mountain where Christ was transfigured was above the spot where there remains, to this day, a site honoring Pan, who was, at that time, considered by pagans to be the “great god” who ruled the world. Pan’s essence was sexual and leaned toward depravity, i.e., to Christians,and he was the god over shepherds and flocks, it represents the power of evil. (Remember that with the exchange immediately following Christ’s proclamation!) The altar to Pan was just below the city that represented the evil, and was hidden in the cliffs.

Why this spot? Why, of all the places to which Jesus journeyed, would he choose (and don’t think it wasn’t chosen!) a place so antithetical to the Kingdom of God? Obviously, because Christ, through the Church He was then establishing, is the antithesis to everything which kept men from the Kingdom. And even the gates of hell (a site so named in a niche in the same mountain, which some claim to be the “abyss”) will not prevail over that Kingdom!

But the Kingdom is to be established in the “now” of time, in order for man to live a life of genuine holiness through which he may enter into the eternal Kingdom. Hence, a kingdom needs a King – the King of Kings. However, when the King, established by God through David, is absent from the physical kingdom, it cannot be left unattended. Hence, the keeper of the keys, the “prime minister” or “vicar”, is charged with the full authority of the king over all his lands, peoples, and possessions. He can make law or repeal it. He can make any decisions the King would make. And he is responsible to the King for every action he takes.

The “short” form of my position on Matthew 16:

1. The “petros/petra” issue would not have occurred, since Jesus was not speaking Greek, but Aramaic, wherein there is ONE word form: Kepha.
2. A change in name in Scripture ALWAYS came with a significant change in stature and responsibility. It wasn’t a “whim” of Christ’s to change Simon’s name to Peter. And we know that change was real, as it’s referred to throughout the NT. What is the significance of the name change, if not to designate Peter as the primate over all the followers of Christ? Note that whenever a name change was made in the OT, there was an explanation for it – Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. Likewise, Simon becomes Peter because upon his strength in faith the sacred community of the faithful, the Church, would be founded.
3. The keeper of the keys is not simply noted in Isaiah 22:22. 1Chron 9 details the specifics of the keys. The person who was designated as the keeper of the keys was the “right hand man” of the king. He literally sat at the right hand of the king’s throne.
4. The throne of David was considered by Jews to be the throne of God. (Ref. 1Chron 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.
5. The keeper of the keys is, therefore, the Lord’s vicar, who occupies the earthly throne until Christ returns.

 

[1beleevr]

The title of this thread, leaves one to ponder,“What exactly is the main point?” Are us non-catholics supposed to listen to our catholic Christian brothers and sisters? Is it an open forum, aor is there a central theme? I remember bringing up the issue of how to dress for church; and although I did not mean for it to cause any hard feelings or controversy, there were some snide remarks rendered! I “dressed up” for church as a young man, because I felt that this was how it was supposed to be As I matured in my Christian walk(still going on,Phil 1:6), I realized it was not so much about how one dressed for church, but what condition one’s heart was in, when they were at church:thumbsup: Some would say,“WEll, you should dress up, and show respect to God!” Or the sanctuary is holy ground, and you should bring your best, when meeting your Saviour!". For those of you who have children; when they were growing up, otr even if they are grown, do yo/did you require them to “dress up”, wear formal wear, to be in your presence? Were there times when dirt or mud, cvered thar cherubic face? Did you say, “Now go wash up, and put on clean clothes, and I’ll talk with you?” In Matthew 23:25, Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for putting too much emphasis on the “outside of the cup”! For most people, when they first meet Jesus, and are ready to surrender, regardless of what they are wearing, they bring a heart that is tattered, and weary, stained with sin! Jesus does not put a lot of stock in the outside appearance, but cares about the heart! So, being human, we do put emphasis on appearances, whether it be our cars, homes, or our clothing! But please don’t make it sound like that if you don’t get “gussied up”, for church, that God will turn away from you! Yes, there should be a certain amount of decorum, and order, but not to the point of scorn or disapproval of one’s dress

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Read in matthew 7:24 about Jesus who talks about ROCK: house built upon a ROCK and in v 25 the floods came but the house did not fall b/c it was founded upon a ROCK.

Then onto Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I’ve read many times in this forum Catholics point to this scripture that Peter is the rock that Christ spoke of. Peter is not the rock or foundation of the church, but the ROCK is Christ himself.

Christ was the cornerstone. Peter was the rock, foundation. A building cannot be built without a cornerstone.

Now it appears you and other Protestants receive a different interpretation of Matthew 16:18. While you say that Christ is the rock, others say it’s Peter’s confession that is rock. The trouble with either of those interpretations is Matthew 16:19.

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

If Christ was the “rock” in Matthew 16:18, who was giving the keys of the kingdom of heaven too? Who was Christ telling, “And whatsover thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven?”

Christ repeats the bind and loose statement again in Matthew 18:18, when He is addressing the authority of His Church.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

[OnlyJesus]

To me, it is narrow-minded and borderline blasphemous to keep God in a box(sanctuaryand make it seem that one can only meet Him there!

Jesus said:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Someone earlier posted scriptures about the eunach’s salvation experience…there was no building, no confirmation sacrament etc.
It was GOD who sent a messenger to send Philip to the eunuch.

Acts 8
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Then:

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. **And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. **

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Such a simple act. God knows those who search. God sends his earthly hands and feet, i.e. The Body of Christ, to firstly preach Christ. And then the baptism.

There was no pomp and circumstance, no robes, no baptismal pool, no congregation… nothing but the simplicity that is the gospel of Christ under the direction of God, the believer’s profession in Christ as Son of God, and then the baptism no doubt in a river, stream or pond, whatever was available.