Protestants listen up

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you have been following what I have been saying you would know the answer.
Contemplative Prayer (the Jesus prayer) as practiced in monastaries is a great tool to hear Gods voice and to come to know Him. Another tool which Catholics and Protestants alike practice is Practice the presence of God. Each of these is God centered and God will lead yu to Himself-----that is Gods desire that we be with Him wo would He hold back the very thing He wants most?

And, honestly, why do you think you know me well enough, through a single post, to say I don’t know Christ? I can you tell wholeheartedly, you are wrong about me and I am offended by your judgment, or condemnation. To say such a thing, in my opinion, lacks the charitability required of ALL Christians.

 

[SyCarl]

You act as if God being omnipresent is a detriment to people asking friends to pray for them. I’m sure you’ve asked your family and friends to pray for you, right? Well, if Christ is in your midst if you believe," then why did you do that? Because God considers others’ prayers as well as your own! Surely God would listen to the petitions of the person he chose to give birth to him. There is no difference between asking someone in earth or someone in heaven to pray for you. In fact, I’d suppose asking those in heaven would be more beneficial, because they can pray continuously without being bothered with things like sleep and our earthly limitations.

This hints at something that gives my a great deal of trouble. It is the suggestion that God will be more willing to grant our prayers if someone like Mary or the saints in heaven pray for us. The reasoning goes something like “God is more likely to grant a request if Mary makes it because she is His mother and He wants to honour and respect her. Mary and the saints are free from sin and God will listen to them rather than me because I am a sinner.”.

To me this treats God as if He was human and is affected by our emotions habits. We would listen to our mother more than we would a stranger and we say God would to. However God’s ways are not our ways. God will always do what is right. If we pray, we must trust that God will do what is right. To suggest that God would change His response to our prayer because someone in heaven asks, to me says one of two things.

One, without the prayer of the saint, God would not do what is right in response to out prayer. In other words we need a saint to get God to do what is right.

Two, as a result of the saint, God will change His response from what is right to what is wrong.

These two choices seem to follow to me if the saint is to be any more successful in getting our requests than we are. We hope God’s decision will be different from what it would have been without the saint.

Me praying for someone on earth allows me to show love for them and asking them to pray for me allows them to show their love.

However suggesting God is more likely to grant requests if someone in heaven sides with us, just does not sit well with me. It may be a different thing if you don’t expect better treatment if you pray to a saint, but is this not the common belief?

 

[wisdomseeker]

But Christ is present both on earth and in heaven. You dont even have to walk across the street because He is in your midst if you believe
Once you are shown Christ you dont need someone to continually show you Christ because then you would know Him and can approach Him. It is your logic that is flawed.

why do you think that Jesus told the Parable about lazarus and the rich man? did not the rich man ask Abraham for help? why do you think that is?

again Jesus gave us a Church, the Pillar and bullward of Truth that we might know the Truth. are you in that Church? why not?

 

[Hisalone]

And, honestly, why do you think you know me well enough, through a single post, to say I don’t know Christ? I can you tell wholeheartedly, you are wrong about me and I am offended by your judgment, or condemnation. To say such a thing, in my opinion, lacks the charitability required of ALL Christians.

In post #44 **you accuse **me of being one who falsely knows Christ. My response is that there is no falseness to my claim.
If you knew Christ you would know that I am one of His.
I cannot say anything more becase you are too easily offended and next thing you know you will try and get me banned—is that fair play?

 

[rinnie]

You are the person God shose to live within. You God chose to be a tabernacle of His Spirit. Will you say yes or will you change the subject and talk about Mary.

I will say yes, and I will also talk about Mary. Why can’t I do both.

Answer me this question hisalone, Do you believe that God hears your prayers, and do you believe that he answers them?

 

[NDfan]

You know as a kid my dad always said go to the Blessed Mother. She know’s pain, She saw her son hung on a cross. No one has sufferered like the Blessed Mother.

As A Mother every day those words come to life for me.

Go to her. She does not have the Power of Christ but she has the love of Christ to help you.

She is the MOTHER of GOD. Do you not believe that she can help you. Please quit the nonsense of saying she can’t do this or that.

GOD picked her. Give her your pain. give her your problems. And believe if God could have called on her to take the pain of seeing her son suffer, she can help you also.

Go to your Mother she is the Mother that is perfect. Try it . I swear to you she can help you.

What Son or daughter who loves their Mother can refuse her. Don’t you think Jesus is the same!

Trust her! God gave her to you as he was hanging on the Cross. Trust her, as God trusted her!

No disrespect Rinnie but I’ve always asked GOD for help directly and HE never EVER let’s me down. While I have tremendous respect for Mary as a role model, GOD is my creator and Jesus is the only one who can intercede for me. Jesus ALONE is my savior not Mary.

With regard to no one ever suffering like Mary I take personal offense to that statement. I almost lost my son to a brain tumor last year. My wife and I had to watch him suffer with debilitating headaches for months before the proper diagnosis was made. His growth has been stunted because of his condition. He will need hormone replacement meds his entire life including injecting himself with growth hormone everyday so he doesn’t die. He still suffers with headaches that are going to be a part of his life. This is a child who just wants to go to school and live somewhat a normal life. Then there’s my wife’s first child that died because the umbilical cord was wrapped around the baby’s neck. The baby died just a few days before delivery due to the doctor’s delinquency in not recognizing the decrease in activity and the baby’s heart rate slowing at various times because the cord was literally strangulating her. My wife’s delivery was more difficult because she had to deliver a deceased baby. Then had to battle the emotions of holding her wrapped in a blanket without ever getting to know her.

It wasn’t Mary who got us through this. It was GOD’s response to our constant prayers in Jesus’ name to HIM alone.

PEACE

 

[emeraldcoast]

No disrespect Rinnie but I’ve always asked GOD for help directly and HE never EVER let’s me down. While I have tremendous respect for Mary as a role model, GOD is my creator and Jesus is the only one who can intercede for me. Jesus ALONE is my savior not Mary.

With regard to no one ever suffering like Mary I take personal offense to that statement. I almost lost my son to a brain tumor last year. My wife and I had to watch him suffer with debilitating headaches for months before the proper diagnosis was made. His growth has been stunted because of his condition. He will need hormone replacement meds his entire life including injecting himself with growth hormone everyday so he doesn’t die. He still suffers with headaches that are going to be a part of his life. This is a child who just wants to go to school and live somewhat a normal life. Then there’s my wife’s first child that died because the umbilical cord was wrapped around the baby’s neck. The baby died just a few days before delivery due to the doctor’s delinquency in not recognizing the decrease in activity and the baby’s heart rate slowing at various times because the cord was literally strangulating her. My wife’s delivery was more difficult because she had to deliver a deceased baby. Then had to battle the emotions of holding her wrapped in a blanket without ever getting to know her.

It wasn’t Mary who got us through this. It was GOD’s response to our constant prayers in Jesus’ name to HIM alone.

PEACE

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. From reading your post, it is very clear to me that you KNOW God’s healing and resurrecting power.

At our Healing Service, our priest says the following blessing after the laying of hands…

“The Almighty Lord, who is a strong tower to all who put their trust in Him, to whom all things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth bow and obey: Be now and evermore your defense, and make you know and the feel the only Name under heaven given for health and salvation is the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Amen.

God Bless!

 

[rinnie]

ndfan, No offense taken. And before I start may I express my prayers and sympathy.

But no disrespect and I would not lie to you about this, It was my Mother over 5 years ago that sat in the hospital and held my Brother who died from a brain tumor.

I will never forget her words go to God Joey Go to God. She said to me, I never knew how painful this could ever be to see you child suffer so bad that you will give him up to God before you see him suffer one more minute.

Then she said I could only imagine what the Poor Blessed Mother went through when she saw her baby hung on the cross.

My Point is my brother was a 39 year old man who at least got pain meds, had family around him that did all they could do to help him and love him. The Blessed Mothers baby got spit on, beat harder and suffered for our sins.

My Mothers last words were go to Jesus and go to your new Mother Now. THe Blessed Mother will take care of you. Go to your Mother, and go to God. You will be okay.

So no disrespect but it is her knowing that he has the best Mother in the world now to hold him, and confort him until she can see him again. So if you feel that is replacing her with God you are wrong. It is knowing she is there with God to open her arms to him and Love him that gets my mother through every day.

And 2 years later I lost a baby and I know what it is to suffer. And last March I lost my Dad and I know the loss, the pain, but it could still never compare to the suffering of the Blessed Mother. No one can ever know that kind of pain!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

In post #44 **you accuse **me of being one who falsely knows Christ. My response is that there is no falseness to my claim.
If you knew Christ you would know that I am one of His.
I cannot say anything more becase you are too easily offended and next thing you know you will try and get me banned—is that fair play?

I did not provide scriptures to “accuse” you of being one who falsely knows Christ. You asked, “why do I need Mary to point to Him?” I used scriptures, with words from our Lord, to show there are some, not necessarily you, that need Christ pointed out to them.

When you said that I couldn’t show you Christ, because I didn’t know him, I offered a clarification by stating, “His mother knows Him better than anyone and surely would not point anyone in the wrong direction.”

Now if I used your words, in the post I’ve quoted above, “If you knew Christ you would know that I am one of His”, I would feel it would be judgemental, or condemning, on my part and I know that Christ told us to, (Luke 6:37) “Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven.”

He is the only one that can see what is in a person’s heart. He is the only one with authority to judge us all.

Just as misinterpretation is discussed all across these forums, I am glad I can clarify what I wrote. I apologize for my part of any miscommunication that may have taken place in this discussion.

Now, fair play? Is it fair play to come to a Catholic forum and show a disrespect or contempt for the Catholic faith? One can disagree, or question the faith, without being condescending, disrespectful or showing contempt. We are Christians, we know Christ, we know His sacrifice, we know His love, we know His mercy and forgivness; all of which is the center of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is a Bible based Church, even if one doesn’t understand or agree with our interpretation of scriptures.

The rules of the forum are designed to prevent anyone from questioning another’s sincerity of their beliefs, assuming you know what another thinks or needs, or being uncivil or disrepectful. Those seem to be in line with the teachings of Christ. When someone violates those rules, or turns the discussion to one personally, whether it me or another, I will report it. Those type actions do not serve as a witness of who we are.

 

[NDfan]

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. From reading your post, it is very clear to me that you KNOW God’s healing and resurrecting power.

At our Healing Service, our priest says the following blessing after the laying of hands…

“The Almighty Lord, who is a strong tower to all who put their trust in Him, to whom all things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth bow and obey: Be now and evermore your defense, and make you know and the feel the only Name under heaven given for health and salvation is the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Amen.

God Bless!

Emerald thanks for the kind words. Our Elders prayed over my son before his surgery. There’s no way we could have gotten through it without the support of our church and ultimately the strength of GOD.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

ndfan, No offense taken. And before I start may I express my prayers and sympathy.

But no disrespect and I would not lie to you about this, It was my Mother over 5 years ago that sat in the hospital and held my Brother who died from a brain tumor.

I will never forget her words go to God Joey Go to God. She said to me, I never knew how painful this could ever be to see you child suffer so bad that you will give him up to God before you see him suffer one more minute.

Then she said I could only imagine what the Poor Blessed Mother went through when she saw her baby hung on the cross.

Rinnie thank you for the kind words. As a parent I can tell you it was hard for my wife and I to see our son suffer. We both felt that if it was GOD’s will that he be taken from us then we certainly submit to HIS will being done. I always reflected on the pain that Mary may have felt witnessing Jesus suffering and ultimate death. As a parent there is no greater pain and that was my point. Mary did not suffer more than we did nor did she suffer more than any parent who loses their child.

My Point is my brother was a 39 year old man who at least got pain meds, had family around him that did all they could do to help him and love him. The Blessed Mothers baby got spit on, beat harder and suffered for our sins.

But again this does not mean Mary suffered more than any other parent that loses a child. How about parents that lose their children in fatal car crashes. My uncle lost his son in a motorcycle accident because of a drunk driver. He could do nothing for him except to watch him die. I just don’t think we should be creating a post that contains the wording in which you supplied. It appears as if you are starting a competition in which I’m most confident Mary would not want to participate in. Christ suffered terribly and it was a tragedy that Mary had to witness that. But that doesn’t diminish the suffering we or your mom went through just because family surrounded our loved ones and treatment was administered. If anything the fact that my son suffered for months without getting the proper treatment was enough to induce severe panic attacks for my wife. I almost could not control her. Watching your child suffer for months and months and to now have to watch him suffer for the rest of his life is not easy I can tell you. I can do absolutely nothing except pray to GOD to help him.

My Mothers last words were go to Jesus and go to your new Mother Now. THe Blessed Mother will take care of you. Go to your Mother, and go to God. You will be okay.

So no disrespect but it is her knowing that he has the best Mother in the world now to hold him, and comfort him until she can see him again. So if you feel that is replacing her with God you are wrong. It is knowing she is there with God to open her arms to him and Love him that gets my mother through every day.

And if this gives your mother strength then GOD Bless. But we have no way of knowing that Mary’s purpose is to take care of us in Heaven. In the end GOD is the only one that can heal us and give us eternal life, not Mary. I never once thought that if my son died he would have the best mother in the world taking care of him. My only thought was that if he did die, Christ would come to get him. And that’s the best person I can think of to ever take care of any of my children.

And 2 years later I lost a baby and I know what it is to suffer. And last March I lost my Dad and I know the loss, the pain, but it could still never compare to the suffering of the Blessed Mother. No one can ever know that kind of pain!

And I pray that GOD continues to give you the strength to endure. But if you feel your suffering could never compare to Mary or that no one could ever know that kind of pain I believe you are incorrect. This may be your personal opinion and certainly you are entitled to it. But I don’t believe Mary would ever try to compare her suffering to anyone else. Remember Mary had the chance to see her son resurrected.

I think overall the problem with this type of post is that you are calling out protestants on something that is not scripturally based and willing your own opinion onto them as if they are doing something wrong. You can never know the pain that any parent feels when they lose a child so it’s almost a slap in the face when you start comparing it to someone else’s suffering claiming it’s not on the same scale. Comparisons of this nature are not what these forums are about.

PEACE

 

[Hercules253]

I know Mary deserves honor as the Mother of God, raising Jesus, and feel that maybe some protestants totally undermine and neglect her because of what they perceive as worship. However I feel that Catholics over-exalt her as someone above and beyond others in the Bible that carried God’s will through their faith and suffering such as the prophets- all of them necessary and unique. That’s resting on the border line of worship.

Peter, who supposedly started the Catholic Church as being the “rock” played a critical role too. Even though, he still rejected reverence for himself as we see in Acts 10:25.

*As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet **in reverence.**26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” *

I admit, there’s a lot that I don’t know but that leaves me thinking: if Peter himself rejected reverence, then why is it permissible to revere Mary? The apostles and New Testament writers make no reference to revering Mary at all?

I also found this:
Luke 4:8 “You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore.”
Isn’t adore and venerate the same thing? The bible always equates reverence with worship. I’m not really sure and I can probably be wrong on this one.

I understand that Catholics venerate and pray “through” Mary as oppose “to” her and since that saints in heaven are much alive as we are on Earth it’s like requesting a friend to pray for us-which is biblical. Furthermore we can ask saints to pray for us, after all, they shouldn’t stop praying for us especially when they are closer to the Father than we are. That all makes sense to me and I agree.
However, is it acceptable to build a grotto in my backyard with a 20 foot golden statue of Elijah, Moses, or Enoch (the were definitely holy and righteous and taken into Heaven with fuller access to God) and place roses, candles, burn incense, get on my knees, clasp my hands, and pray “through” them and as a friend and honor them by reciting the following:

'O clement, loving, sweet Elijah, Moses, Enoch
servants of God,
to you do we open our hearts and send our tears, mourning, and prayers to you that
you may intercede on our behalf to our Lord Jesus, who sits at the right hand of the Father
in Heaven where you dwell.
Elijah, Moses, Enoch, our hope, I adore you, pray for us sinners"

According to the Catholic criteria using the same logic of Mary, this should be all acceptable right? Why or why not?

I’m asking because I don’t know the answer at all. Someone please clarify all of this for me.

 

[Hercules253]

I know Mary deserves honor as the Mother of God, raising Jesus, watching her son get crucified and feel that maybe some protestants totally undermine and neglect her because of what they perceive as worship. However, on the other end I feel that Catholics over-exalt her as someone above and beyond others in the Bible that carried God’s will through their faith and suffering such as the prophets, servants, apostles, and judges- all of them necessary and unique. That’s resting on the border line of worship.

Peter, who supposedly started the Catholic Church as being the “rock” played a critical role too. Even though, he still rejected reverence for himself as we see in Acts 10:25.

*As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet **in reverence.**26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” *

I admit, there’s a lot that I don’t know but that leaves me thinking: if Peter himself rejected reverence, then why is it permissible to revere Mary? All of the apostles and New Testament writers make no reference to revering Mary at all.

I understand that Catholics venerate and pray “through” Mary as oppose “to” her and since that saints in heaven are much alive as we are on Earth it’s like requesting a friend to pray for us-which is biblical. Furthermore we can ask saints to pray for us, after all, they shouldn’t stop praying for us especially when they are closer to the Father than we are. That all makes sense to me and I agree.
However, is it acceptable to build a grotto in my backyard with a 20 foot golden statue of Peter, place roses, candles, burn incense in front of his statue, get on my knees, clasp my hands, and pray “through” him as a friend (all of this which Catholics already do for Mary) and honor him by reciting the following:

'O clement, O loving, O sweet Peter
servant and apostle of God,
to you do we open our hearts and send our tears, mourning, and prayers to you that
you may intercede on our behalf to our Lord Jesus, who sits at the right hand of the Father
in Heaven where you dwell.
Peter, our hope, I adore you, pray for us sinners"

According to the Catholic criteria using the same logic for Mary, this should be all be acceptable for Peter too, right? Why or why not?

Like Mary was picked by God, Peter was definitely hand picked by Jesus himself to become the rock and help start the Church with his leadership
Like Mary was picked by God, Peter was selected by Jesus to become a disciple and he even left everything behind to do that
Like Mary suffered, imagine the agony and fear he felt knowing his master and friend he loved got crucified?
His courage, his unyielding faith, uncompromising determination to follow his love for Christ caused him to get crucified himself. That shows the degree of love Peter had for Jesus
Like Mary, Peter was present at Pentacost and received the Holy Spirit
Peter was given authority by Jesus himself to drive out demons and heal people.
God the Father, Himself selected Peter through revelation to identify who Jesus was (Matthew 16:17)
Peter even tried to protect Jesus’ endangerment by drawing a sword against the high priest. Only a true friend that loves you would defend you like that.
Like Mary, Saint Peter is in Heaven with full access to God, praying, and is our friend too.

God must of really thought Peter was special to select him. So it seems like Peter should be exalted and earn the ranks to be up there as much as Mary should right? So why aren’t Catholics spending a lot of time kneeling to statues of Peter, surrounding it with roses, candles, incense, and adding about a hundred “Hail Peter” prayers as part of the rosary? Why should I revere Mary more than Peter? Or most importantly, why should I revere anyone but God when it says:

Luke 4:8 “You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore.”
Isn’t adore and venerate the same thing? The bible always equates reverence with worship. I’m not really sure and I can probably be wrong on this one.

I’m asking because I don’t know the answer at all. Someone please clarify all of this for me.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Blessed Virgin Mary’s speaks her last words to all the servants of Jesus Christ from Sacred Scripture;

John 2:5
His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

To know the true Jesus Christ is to know his blessed Mother Mary,“From now on **all ages **will call (Mary) blessed”.

For protestants and non catholics to accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary instead of Jesus have been decieved. Curosity wonders what else have they been decieved of in their christian formation?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie thank you for the kind words. As a parent I can tell you it was hard for my wife and I to see our son suffer. We both felt that if it was GOD’s will that he be taken from us then we certainly submit to HIS will being done. I always reflected on the pain that Mary may have felt witnessing Jesus suffering and ultimate death. As a parent there is no greater pain and that was my point. Mary did not suffer more than we did nor did she suffer more than any parent who loses their child.

But again this does not mean Mary suffered more than any other parent that loses a child. How about parents that lose their children in fatal car crashes. My uncle lost his son in a motorcycle accident because of a drunk driver. He could do nothing for him except to watch him die. I just don’t think we should be creating a post that contains the wording in which you supplied. It appears as if you are starting a competition in which I’m most confident Mary would not want to participate in. Christ suffered terribly and it was a tragedy that Mary had to witness that. But that doesn’t diminish the suffering we or your mom went through just because family surrounded our loved ones and treatment was administered. If anything the fact that my son suffered for months without getting the proper treatment was enough to induce severe panic attacks for my wife. I almost could not control her. Watching your child suffer for months and months and to now have to watch him suffer for the rest of his life is not easy I can tell you. I can do absolutely nothing except pray to GOD to help him.

And if this gives your mother strength then GOD Bless. But we have no way of knowing that Mary’s purpose is to take care of us in Heaven. In the end GOD is the only one that can heal us and give us eternal life, not Mary. I never once thought that if my son died he would have the best mother in the world taking care of him. My only thought was that if he did die, Christ would come to get him. And that’s the best person I can think of to ever take care of any of my children.

And I pray that GOD continues to give you the strength to endure. But if you feel your suffering could never compare to Mary or that no one could ever know that kind of pain I believe you are incorrect. This may be your personal opinion and certainly you are entitled to it. But I don’t believe Mary would ever try to compare her suffering to anyone else. Remember Mary had the chance to see her son resurrected.

I think overall the problem with this type of post is that you are calling out protestants on something that is not scripturally based and willing your own opinion onto them as if they are doing something wrong. You can never know the pain that any parent feels when they lose a child so it’s almost a slap in the face when you start comparing it to someone else’s suffering claiming it’s not on the same scale. Comparisons of this nature are not what these forums are about.

PEACE

You missed my whole point of the thread. My Point was that Mary saw her son crucified on a tree. The point of my thread was that she knows pain, she knows the loss of a Child, and she knows as a Mother what it feels like. And with that knowing and pain that she had she can help us in our suffereing.

She can help us with her prayers and she can Go directlty to God and also ask him to help us. My point was not to deny anyones pain, my point was to tell them that there is someone like her who understands, and who could understand more than her.

I am sorry if it bothers you that My Mother get’s confort from Mary being in heaven and helping my Brother. Mary is the perfect Mother of us all. And just because you don’t accept it that is fine, but you have no idea of the power that her prayers can bring to you. That is my point.

And I am sorry that you feel that the oral teachings are not based on scripture. And I am also sorry that you can not understand the Love and help she can be and has been to many people. And how can me trying to show people the help she has done in our lives in any way take away from God. God is our savior. I never denied that. I never said Mary had any more or as much Power as God. I just said that she is the one God picked, and she can help us and be a great confort to us if we ask. Her prayers are very powerful. I am sorry that you can’t believe that, or feel that because her prayer’s to God give me confort, and have helped me and my family, and me sharing that so other people can know insult you and upset you. It was not to hurt people but help people to understand why we love her so much.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

(Snipped to fit the response with the character limits.)
I’m asking because I don’t know the answer at all. Someone please clarify all of this for me.

Mary was the ark of the new covenant. Let’s see what God’s instructions were for the first ark of the covenant.

Exo 25:11 And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold, within and without; and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about:
Exo 25:12 And four golden rings, which thou shalt put at the four corners of the ark: let two rings be on the one side, and two on the other.
Exo 25:13 Thou shalt make bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold.
Exo 25:14 And thou shalt put them in through the rings that are in the sides of the ark, that it may be carried on them:
Exo 25:15 And they shall be always in the rings, neither shall they at any time be drawn out of them.
Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee.
Exo 25:17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half.
Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.
Exo 25:20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to to be covered.
Exo 25:21 In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee.

Yes God chose Peter, as He chose Mary. Did the angel of the Lord refer to Peter as “full of grace”? Mary fully submitted herself to God’s will. That should serve as an example to everyone.

I, personally, cannot see how Jesus, who had to have the most perfect concept of honor thy mother, would be offended by us honoring His mother, who as He, submitted herself totally to God’s will.

During those times, who was the queen, that sat at the right hand of the king?

1Ki 2:19 Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right hand.

The Bible tells us the throne of David was established by the Lord.

Who sits upon the throne established by the Lord now, and is our King? Who do you think sits at the right hand of our King?

Honor, veneration, and taking as an example, is not worshipping. Does that mean that no one crosses that line? I cannot say, but I know “man” is an imperfect creature, so it might be something one can assume happens. It’s not for us to judge if that line has been crossed. Only one can see what’s in our hearts.

 

[rinnie]

I know Mary deserves honor as the Mother of God, raising Jesus, watching her son get crucified and feel that maybe some protestants totally undermine and neglect her because of what they perceive as worship. However, on the other end I feel that Catholics over-exalt her as someone above and beyond others in the Bible that carried God’s will through their faith and suffering such as the prophets, servants, apostles, and judges- all of them necessary and unique. That’s resting on the border line of worship.

Peter, who supposedly started the Catholic Church as being the “rock” played a critical role too. Even though, he still rejected reverence for himself as we see in Acts 10:25.

*As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet **in reverence.***26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

I admit, there’s a lot that I don’t know but that leaves me thinking: if Peter himself rejected reverence, then why is it permissible to revere Mary? All of the apostles and New Testament writers make no reference to revering Mary at all.

I understand that Catholics venerate and pray “through” Mary as oppose “to” her and since that saints in heaven are much alive as we are on Earth it’s like requesting a friend to pray for us-which is biblical. Furthermore we can ask saints to pray for us, after all, they shouldn’t stop praying for us especially when they are closer to the Father than we are. That all makes sense to me and I agree.
However, is it acceptable to build a grotto in my backyard with a 20 foot golden statue of Peter, place roses, candles, burn incense in front of his statue, get on my knees, clasp my hands, and pray “through” him as a friend (all of this which Catholics already do for Mary) and honor him by reciting the following:

'O clement, O loving, O sweet Peter
servant and apostle of God,
to you do we open our hearts and send our tears, mourning, and prayers to you that
you may intercede on our behalf to our Lord Jesus, who sits at the right hand of the Father
in Heaven where you dwell.
Peter, our hope, I adore you, pray for us sinners"

According to the Catholic criteria using the same logic for Mary, this should be all be acceptable for Peter too, right? Why or why not?

Like Mary was picked by God, Peter was definitely hand picked by Jesus himself to become the rock and help start the Church with his leadership
Like Mary was picked by God, Peter was selected by Jesus to become a disciple and he even left everything behind to do that
Like Mary suffered, imagine the agony and fear he felt knowing his master and friend he loved got crucified?
His courage, his unyielding faith, uncompromising determination to follow his love for Christ caused him to get crucified himself. That shows the degree of love Peter had for Jesus
Like Mary, Peter was present at Pentacost and received the Holy Spirit
Peter was given authority by Jesus himself to drive out demons and heal people.
God the Father, Himself selected Peter through revelation to identify who Jesus was (Matthew 16:17)
Peter even tried to protect Jesus’ endangerment by drawing a sword against the high priest. Only a true friend that loves you would defend you like that.
Like Mary, Saint Peter is in Heaven with full access to God, praying, and is our friend too.

God must of really thought Peter was special to select him. So it seems like Peter should be exalted and earn the ranks to be up there as much as Mary should right? So why aren’t Catholics spending a lot of time kneeling to statues of Peter, surrounding it with roses, candles, incense, and adding about a hundred “Hail Peter” prayers as part of the rosary? Why should I revere Mary more than Peter? Or most importantly, why should I revere anyone but God when it says:

Luke 4:8 "You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore."
Isn’t adore and venerate the same thing? The bible always equates reverence with worship. I’m not really sure and I can probably be wrong on this one.

I’m asking because I don’t know the answer at all. Someone please clarify all of this for me.

Actually what would be wrong with having a Statue of Peter. I have a huge one of the Blessed Mother in front of my house. I also have a Statue of Jesus. And what would be wrong with having one of ST Peter also. And asking ST Peter to pray for us also. To venerate is to look upon with great feeling’s of great respect. So why is it you can respect others in this world but when we respect the Mother of Christ we are accused of worshiping. Actually now that you mentioned it, I am going to find a statue of Peter and put him in my yard too!

But there is a big difference in The Blessed Mother and Peter. Peter was not the Mother of God, and Peter was not sinless. Big difference. And while I love and believe in his teaching’s and his dedication to our Lord he is not God. But yes I ask him also to pray for me also.

 

[Hercules253]

So you’re saying that it is acceptable to make a giant statue of Peter and light it up with candles, roses, and incense? Ok, if you say so.
But that’s the point I’m making…Catholics don’t do that because they percieve THAT as “worshipping”…but then they can do that with Mary and its acceptable?

So you’re also implying that I can make a golden statue of Elijah, Enoch, Zachiariah since they were sinless too and 2 of them were taken to heaven right?

Your personal opinion- what do you think Moses would say, especially after Aaron made that golden calf, if I got on my knees and prayed “through” a golden statue of Abraham back in the Exodus days? I’m sure it would turn out pretty ugly.

Do you know how many disciples in the New Testament ever record getting in front of a statue of a highly righteous standing person and venerating them?..The answer to that is NONE…even the Pharisees and Sadducess Jewish sect and customs don’t do that.
Shouldn’t we learn from those examples, those closest with Christ?

So, really where is the fine line between worshipping and venerating since it resembles the same motion?

How would you make a statue of Mary if you don’t even know what she looks like?
The Mary that I have seen so far highly resemble pagan goddesses. Denying that would contradict history.
Now this is were the confusion comes in:
The argument is not IF she should be honored but HOW she is honored.She is the Mother of God and sinless BUT she shouldn’t be honored with a statue, kneeling in front of it, placing roses, candles, and incense…That becomes worship and idolism!!! There are a million ways to honor her and statues should not be one of them! Every single incident in the Bible where someone kneels in front of a statue was equated with worship!
Read the Bible for yourself and see what I mean.
Even the early Church Fathers did not venerate her the way Modern Catholics do today!

Luke 11:27-28*As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!”
But he said, **Rather, how blessed are those who hear God’s word and obey it!"/**I]

So, in other words, JESUS is telling us that we are more blessed by believing in God’s word than the woman that bare Him.
I don’t know about you but I’m going with Christ’s Word on this one.*

 

[rinnie]

So you’re saying that it is acceptable to make a giant statue of Peter and light it up with candles, roses, and incense? Ok, if you say so.
But that’s the point I’m making…Catholics don’t do that because they percieve THAT as “worshipping”…but then they can do that with Mary and its acceptable?

So you’re also implying that I can make a golden statue of Elijah, Enoch, Zachiariah since they were sinless too and 2 of them were taken to heaven right?

Your personal opinion- what do you think Moses would say, especially after Aaron made that golden calf, if I got on my knees and prayed “through” a golden statue of Abraham back in the Exodus days? I’m sure it would turn out pretty ugly.

Do you know how many disciples in the New Testament ever record getting in front of a statue of a highly righteous standing person and venerating them?..The answer to that is NONE…even the Pharisees and Sadducess Jewish sect and customs don’t do that.
Shouldn’t we learn from those examples, those closest with Christ?

So, really where is the fine line between worshipping and venerating since it resembles the same motion?

How would you make a statue of Mary if you don’t even know what she looks like?
The Mary that I have seen so far highly resemble pagan goddesses. Denying that would contradict history.
Now this is were the confusion comes in:
The argument is not IF she should be honored but HOW she is honored.She is the Mother of God and sinless BUT she shouldn’t be honored with a statue, kneeling in front of it, placing roses, candles, and incense…That becomes worship and idolism!!! There are a million ways to honor her and statues should not be one of them! Every single incident in the Bible where someone kneels in front of a statue was equated with worship!
Read the Bible for yourself and see what I mean.
Even the early Church Fathers did not venerate her the way Modern Catholics do today!

Luke 11:27-28*As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!”
But he said, **Rather, how blessed are those who hear God’s word and obey it!"/***I]

So, in other words, JESUS is telling us that we are more blessed by believing in God’s word than the woman that bare Him.
I don’t know about you but I’m going with Christ’s Word on this one.

Sorry but that was not a rebuke to the Blessed Mother, It emphasizes that listening to Gods word is more important than a biological relationship to Jesus.

 

[rinnie]

Also how can a statue of the Blessed Mother be a sin. We never ever said she was God. You are trying to tie O.T. into N.T. where it does not belong. Just because they worshiped false gods in the O.T. has nothing to do with the Blessed Mother. We never said she was God. OR any kind of a god. We said she was the Mother OF Christ. And she is Blessed among women. Read the bible. And when we have a statue of the Blessed Mother thats who its of, the Blessed Mother, and Peter is Peter. Never have we worshiped them or called them God.