Protestants listen up

[Prodigal_Son1]

One has to realize that Christians were persecuted for about 400 years after the death and resurrection of the Lord. They were in great danger, just sharing the Gospel.

There’s a huge difference between a statue of a Christian saint and a bronze calf. That’s not a good analogy, in my opinion.

What does the Old Testament teach us about statues? I believe there was a history that supports images, as long as the image itself is not an object of worship.

**Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.

Num 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.
Num 21:9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

1Ki 6:23 And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height.
1Ki 6:24 One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing.
1Ki 6:25 The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims:
1Ki 6:26 That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub.
1Ki 6:27 And he set the cherubims in the midst of the inner temple: and the cherubims stretched forth their wings, and the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall: and the other wings in the midst of the temple touched one another.
1Ki 6:28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.
1Ki 6:29 And all the walls of the temple round about he carved with divers figures and carvings: and he made in them cherubims and palm trees, and divers representations, as it were standing out, and coming forth from the wall.

1Ki 7:25 And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east: and the sea was above upon them, and their hinder parts were all hid within.
1Ki 7:26 And the laver was a hand breadth thick: and the brim thereof was like the brim of a cup, or the leaf of a crisped lily: it contained two thousand bates.
1Ki 7:27 And he made ten bases of brass, every base was four cubits in length, and four cubits in breadth, and three cubits high.
1Ki 7:28 And the work itself of the bases, was intergraven: and there were gravings between the joinings.
1Ki 7:29 And between the little crowns and the ledges, were lions, and oxen, and cherubims; and in the joinings likewise above: and under the lions and oxen, as it were bands of brass hanging down.
1Ki 7:30 And every base had four wheels, and axletrees of brass: and at the four sides were undersetters, under the laver molten, looking one against another.
1Ki 7:31 The mouth also of the laver within, was in the top of the chapiter: and that which appeared without, was of one cubit all round, and together it was one cubit and a half: and in the corners of the pillars were divers engravings: and the spaces between the pillars were square, not round.
1Ki 7:32 And the four whee]s, which were at the four corners of the base, were joined one to another under the base: the height of a wheel was a cubit and a half.
1Ki 7:33 And they were such wheels as are used to be made in a chariot: and their axletrees, and spokes, and strakes, and naves, were all cast.
1Ki 7:34 And the four undersetters, that were at every corner of each base, were of the base itself, cast and joined together.
1Ki 7:35 And on the top of the base, there was a round compass of half a cubit, so wrought that the laver might be set thereon, having its gravings, and divers sculptures of itself.
1Ki 7:36 He engraved also in those plates, which were of brass, and in the corners, cherubims, and lions, and palm trees, in likeness of a man standing, so that they seemed not to be engraven, but added round about.
1Ki 7:37 After this manner, he made ten bases, of one casting and measure, and the like graving.
1Ki 7:38 He made also ten lavers of brass: one laver contained four bates, and was of four cubits: and upon every base, in all ten, he put as many lavers.
1Ki 7:39 And he set the ten bases, five on the right side of the temple, and five on the left: and the sea he put on the right side of the temple, over against the east southward.
1Ki 7:40 And Hiram made cauldrons, and shovels, and basins, and finished all the work of king Solomon in the temple of the Lord.
1Ki 7:41 The two pillars and the two cords of the chapiters, upon the chapiters of the pillars: and the two networks, to cover the two cords, that were upon the top of the pillars.
1Ki 7:42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks: two rows of pomegranates for each network, to cover the cords of the chapiters, which were upon the tops of the pillars.
1Ki 7:43 And the ten bases, and the ten lavers on the bases.
1Ki 7:44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea.
1Ki 7:45 And the cauldrons, and the shovels, and the basins. All the vessels that Hiram made for king Solomon, for the house of the Lord, were of fine brass.**

A statue is no different than a picture. They bring to mind someone we love and respect. Do you have pictures of your family? Do you worship them? No, I don’t believe you do, I’m just using that as an example.

 

[Ruthie]

Candles, kneeling, dressing a statue or picture up in gold and jewelry, all can look like idolatry. But looks are deceiving.

It is what the Catholic church teaches about Mary that is important. Here’s the Catechism. Bolding mine:

[971](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/971.htm’) “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly **honors **"the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

The Catechism is the official teaching of the Church. There is nothing about worship there. We honor her, we are devoted to her. A person may be devoted to their own mother and honor her; we give this even more so to Mary, because she is the Mother of God, and thus mother to us all.

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[Hercules253]

Only comments and no answers to any of my questions huh?

I NEVER said that Catholics declare Mary as God or praying “through” Mary is a sin (even though it is unbiblical) or having a unique relationship with her is forbidden, I am strictly indicating that HOW Catholics venerate Mary which is similar to worship don’t you think?

Worship of Jesus:
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Him near the altar

Veneration of Mary
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes and pray, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Her near the altar
  -Rosary, in which 90% of the prayers are for Mary

So what’s the difference between worship of Christ and Catholic’s “veneration of Mary”?
Please explain. You can’t tell me that the “motions” are different because that would be an awkward statement of ignorance. I know a lot of protestants aren’t blind and they can see the strikingly similarities.
Its like me saying “Im not really praying to this golden calf, I’m praying through the golden calf which represents God’s mighty power”
ummmm…yeah, OK
“If it looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, then it probably is.”
But Catholics will state 'I’m not really worshipping Mary, it just looks like it"…very confusing.
Who has the right to establish the technicalties of what constitutes worship and veneration? God does! What does the dictionary define as idol?

1: representation or symbol of an object of worship
2 : a likeness of something
3 form or appearance visible but without substance
4: an object of extreme devotion

I guess the Catholic dictionary supercedes the Webster dictionary.

**So once again, I will repeat myself: Its not the intention of honoring Mary because she deserves that honor BUT HOW she is being honored which highly reflects idoltry, a sin. **

The early Church Fathers may have stated that Mary was sinless and the Mother of God, but the bowing to Mary statues were not only completely forbidden but foreign to them! Please recite one early Christian writing source were it states that we were to get on our knees in front of a Mary statue any use roses, candles, and incense for the first 250 years?? I’m only asking for ONE instance where bowing and kneeling BEFORE 250 years
was considered apostolic sucession.
Also, the apostles, including John the last surviving one, “whom Jesus loved” that he entrusted him with his mother NEVER mentions any veneration of her or even go to her for guidance. In Luke’s Acts or Paul Letters, adoration of any statue including adoration of Mary was NEVER recorded or practiced. That is not an opinion…THAT IS A FACT.
It is also a FACT that all that stuff didn’t come into the scene until Pagan Constatine (you know, the guy that executed his son and boiled his wife) instituted the replacement of ALL pagan goddess statues to be replaced with Mary statues. So in actuality, Catholics didn’t get rid of goddess practices but only replaced them just like they did with Easter and Christmas. Coincidence???

I not here to discuss wether she needs to be honored. Like I said, Mary deserves honor, as the Mother of Christ and being a faithful servant to God.<---- see, I said it!!
WHAT the Church Today teaches about Mary may be the same as back then…but
HOW the Church Today honors Mary is NOT the same as back then…That’s my point

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Only comments and no answers to any of my questions huh?

I NEVER said that Catholics declare Mary as God or praying “through” Mary is a sin (even though it is unbiblical) or having a unique relationship with her is forbidden, I am strictly indicating that HOW Catholics venerate Mary which is similar to worship don’t you think?

Worship of Jesus:
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Him near the altar

Veneration of Mary
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes and pray, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Her near the altar
  -Rosary, in which 90% of the prayers are for Mary

So what’s the difference between worship of Christ and Catholic’s “veneration of Mary”?
Please explain. You can’t tell me that the “motions” are different because that would be an awkward statement of ignorance. I know a lot of protestants aren’t blind and they can see the strikingly similarities.
Its like me saying “Im not really praying to this golden calf, I’m praying through the golden calf which represents God’s mighty power”
ummmm…yeah, OK
“If it looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, then it probably is.”
But Catholics will state 'I’m not really worshipping Mary, it just looks like it"…very confusing.
Who has the right to establish the technicalties of what constitutes worship and veneration? God does! What does the dictionary define as idol?

1: representation or symbol of an object of worship
2 : a likeness of something
3 form or appearance visible but without substance
4: an object of extreme devotion

I guess the Catholic dictionary supercedes the Webster dictionary.

**So once again, I will repeat myself: Its not the intention of honoring Mary because she deserves that honor BUT HOW she is being honored which highly reflects idoltry, a sin. **

The early Church Fathers may have stated that Mary was sinless and the Mother of God, but the bowing to Mary statues were not only completely forbidden but foreign to them! Please recite one early Christian writing were it states that we were to get on our knees in front of a Mary statue any use roses, candles, and incense for the first 200 years??
Also, the apostles, including John the last surviving one, “whom Jesus loved” that he entrusted him with his mother NEVER mentions any veneration of her or even go to her for guidance. In Luke’s Acts or Paul Letters, adoration of any statue including aodration of Mary was NEVER recorded or practiced. That is not an opinion…THAT IS A FACT.
It is also a FACT that all that stuff didn’t occur until Pagan Constatine (you know, the guy that executed his son and boiled his wife) instituted the replacement of ALL pagan goddess statues to be replaced with Mary statues. Coincidence???

I not here to discuss wethere she needs to be honored. Like I said, Mary deserves honor, as the Mother of Christ and being a faithful servant to God.<---- see, I said it!!
WHAT the Church Today teaches about Mary may be the same as back then…but
HOW the Church Today honors Mary is NOT the same as back then…That’s my point

I believe the comments provide answers. Luke and Paul probably never saw a statue of Mary, they may have well looked upon her in person though. Your “coincidental” comparison to paganism is a quick way to have Catholics ignore the honesty that maybe in your questions. The only coincidence is that Constantine legalized Christianity and returned the Churches land to them. Prior to that the Church pretty much operated underground due to persecutions, with a penalty of death to Christians.

How do you know who people are praying too when they are knelt down before a statue? How do you know what’s being prayed? You are building your argument on judgmental speculation, in my opinion.

I accept your questioning the belief, accept our belief and agree to disagree. There’s no need for CAPS or pagan comparisons to try and get your understanding across.

Edited to add: a dictionary is not the book to check with for matters of faith…

 

[rinnie]

Only comments and no answers to any of my questions huh?

I NEVER said that Catholics declare Mary as God or praying “through” Mary is a sin (even though it is unbiblical) or having a unique relationship with her is forbidden, I am strictly indicating that HOW Catholics venerate Mary which is similar to worship don’t you think?

Worship of Jesus:
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Him near the altar

Veneration of Mary
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes and pray, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Her near the altar
  -Rosary, in which 90% of the prayers are for Mary

So what’s the difference between worship of Christ and Catholic’s “veneration of Mary”?
Please explain. You can’t tell me that the “motions” are different because that would be an awkward statement of ignorance. I know a lot of protestants aren’t blind and they can see the strikingly similarities.
Its like me saying “Im not really praying to this golden calf, I’m praying through the golden calf which represents God’s mighty power”
ummmm…yeah, OK
“If it looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, then it probably is.”
But Catholics will state 'I’m not really worshipping Mary, it just looks like it"…very confusing.
Who has the right to establish the technicalties of what constitutes worship and veneration? God does! What does the dictionary define as idol?

1: representation or symbol of an object of worship
2 : a likeness of something
3 form or appearance visible but without substance
4: an object of extreme devotion

I guess the Catholic dictionary supercedes the Webster dictionary.

**So once again, I will repeat myself: Its not the intention of honoring Mary because she deserves that honor BUT HOW she is being honored which highly reflects idoltry, a sin. **

The early Church Fathers may have stated that Mary was sinless and the Mother of God, but the bowing to Mary statues were not only completely forbidden but foreign to them! Please recite one early Christian writing source were it states that we were to get on our knees in front of a Mary statue any use roses, candles, and incense for the first 300 years?? I’m only asking for ONE instance where bowing and kneeling BEFORE 300 years
was considered apostolic sucession.
Also, the apostles, including John the last surviving one, “whom Jesus loved” that he entrusted him with his mother NEVER mentions any veneration of her or even go to her for guidance. In Luke’s Acts or Paul Letters, adoration of any statue including adoration of Mary was NEVER recorded or practiced. That is not an opinion…THAT IS A FACT.
It is also a FACT that all that stuff didn’t occur until Pagan Constatine (you know, the guy that executed his son and boiled his wife) instituted the replacement of ALL pagan goddess statues to be replaced with Mary statues. Coincidence???

I not here to discuss wether she needs to be honored. Like I said, Mary deserves honor, as the Mother of Christ and being a faithful servant to God.<---- see, I said it!!
WHAT the Church Today teaches about Mary may be the same as back then…but
HOW the Church Today honors Mary is NOT the same as back then…That’s my point

Have you ever watched a Catholic Pray? Sure you have, probally made fun of them to, but lets start with a Prayer In the name of the Father and of the SOn and of the Holy Spirit Amen. The prayer ends the same way too. Thats the difference, rather we are praying in front of the Blessed Mother, St Joseph, St Peter. or a tree, we are praying to our GOd, Jesus Christ, The 3 persons made up of One God. The Trinity. Thats the difference we only Pray to God. If you can’t understand that I am sorry.

What about Jesus when he got on his hands and knees and prayed, Are you going to accuse him of praying to the sky, the trees, etc. Same thing. We pray to God. But being surrounded by the Saints makes us think of God and pray more. We bow our head and we pray just like Jesus to GOD. Why it bugs you so much that we ask the Saints and Mother Of Christ to pray with us, and for us. beats the heck out of me.

Funny though People can go to the graves, buy flowers for their loved ones. say a prayer and thats fine. We put flowers by the Blessed Mother and we are condemned to hell or something. GO FIGURE! Tell me why does it not bother you to see people pray at grave sites, why does it not bother you to see them take flowers to the dead. When they pray and take flowers are you going to call that worshiping false gods too. Wake up.

 

[rinnie]

Man goes to grave site,
kneels in front of grave
recites prayer
takes flowers to grave site.
lights candles, (they have them there)
has a pair of rosary beads in hands.

Funny huh, no one accuses them of worshiping the dead person. But if its the Mother Of Christ its some kind of mortal sin.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Man goes to grave site,
kneels in front of grave
recites prayer
takes flowers to grave site.
lights candles, (they have them there)
has a pair of rosary beads in hands.

Funny huh, no one accuses them of worshiping the dead person. But if its the Mother Of Christ its some kind of mortal sin.

What about looking lovingly upon pictures of loved ones? How do we know what’s going on in that person’s mind?

 

[rinnie]

What about looking lovingly upon pictures of loved ones? How do we know what’s going on in that person’s mind?

Exactly my love, People just want to condemn not understand. Just because we Love and get so much help from the Grace that GOd has granted the Blessed Mother through prayers.

Then you see people going to fortune tellers a mortal sin, etc and thats okay. Go figure.

All we do is ask the Blessed Mother and the Angels and the Saints to pray for us, instead of taking anxiety drugs, or etc. (not that some people do not need them you know what I mean) but we pray and ask the Mother of Christ to pray for us and people can’t understand that.

Oh well, have a wonderful night. gotta go. God Bless.

 

[phoenix3212]

Worship of Jesus:
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Him near the altar

Veneration of Mary
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes and pray, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Her near the altar
  -Rosary, in which 90% of the prayers are for Mary

You forgot to include something incredibly important. The greatest form of worship Catholics engage in, the focus of the whole Church, is receiving Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. Worship, in a Catholic sense, refers to taking in the “body, blood, soul and divinity” of God himself. There’s nothing even remotely comparable to that.

 

[Hercules253]

Man goes to grave site,
kneels in front of grave
recites prayer
takes flowers to grave site.
lights candles, (they have them there)
has a pair of rosary beads in hands.

Funny huh, no one accuses them of worshiping the dead person. But if its the Mother Of Christ its some kind of mortal sin.

That’s actually a poor example. When someone goes to the grave, they are asking God to pray for that deceased person’s soul OR they are talking to that dead person NOT asking that dead person to pray for them or praying “through” the dead person which is what Catholics do with Mary. So that argument is invalid…Now thats funny…

So let’s talk about pictures or photos of people. I use that for remembrance because it is a picture of an actual person! There is a difference between a photo of someone versus creating a statue of someone who I don’t even know what they look like…once again like Catholics do with Mary.

Also, do you bow in front of a photo of someone? Of course not.

Rinnie, I don’t have a problem bowing and closing my eyes and praying for someone or having someone pray for me. Thats biblically legitimate. However, praying and kneeling in front of a statue is a different story.

Please tell me what your definition of “idol” is or better yet, what the word “idol” entails according to the Bible. I am very interested to know your opinion because everything incident that I have found where any statue that was bowed down to was equated to idoltry for whatever intention.

 

[Hercules253]

I believe the comments provide answers. Luke and Paul probably never saw a statue of Mary, they may have well looked upon her in person though. Your “coincidental” comparison to paganism is a quick way to have Catholics ignore the honesty that maybe in your questions. The only coincidence is that Constantine legalized Christianity and returned the Churches land to them. Prior to that the Church pretty much operated underground due to persecutions, with a penalty of death to Christians.

Even though Luke and Paul or the rest of the apostles never seen a statue of Mary they certainly didn’t bow before the living Mary herself, encouraged it, venerated her, nor recorded it…so what does that say? For that matter, they certainly didn’t bow to ANY statue…so what does that say?

How do you know who people are praying too when they are knelt down before a statue? How do you know what’s being prayed? You are building your argument on judgmental speculation, in my opinion.
…

Ok, I guess as long as I pray with sincerity to Jesus or “through” Mary the actual physical form of the statue doesn’t matter.
I can bow down to a statue of some Satan looking creature but as long as I’m praying to God, that makes it OK…so I guess judgmental speculation shouldn’t come into play right?

 

[phoenix3212]

Even though Luke and Paul or the rest of the apostles never seen a statue of Mary they certainly didn’t bow before the living Mary herself, encouraged it, venerated her, nor recorded it…so what does that say? For that matter, they certainly didn’t bow to ANY statue…so what does that say?

They likely walked across the street and asked her to pray for them. Surely it’s acceptable if we do the same today, regardless of whether Mary is physically present here on Earth or not?

 

[Hercules253]

Guys and lady, the whole argument is not about praying “through” Mary or revering Mary…do that if you want. I don’t find anything wrong with that…

When you put a statue representing someone + kneeling in front of it

Now a problem persists because you then get all the motions or physical enactment of idol worship. This isolated act indeed can be considered idol worship.

So its not about flowers or incense or candles that are the problem, its the idol statue that receives them which gives it casualty empowerment.
There are millions of ways to honor someone like Mary and the bottom line is kneeling in front of an idol statue of her is NOT one of them. How do I know this? Because the early Church Fathers and the apostles didn’t do it ( at least for the first 250 years) and every episode when bowing before a statue came it, the Bible forbade it. So shouldn’t we follow by their impeccable example?

You can give all outside examples like flowers for dead people in graves and pictures, etc…but that’s still not bowing in front of an idol statue which is highly condemned.
I hope you understand what I’m actually trying to say instead twisting my position and gear me towards condemning Catholics for honoring Mary as a whole, which I’m not.

So I’ll simplify again by stating the following so maybe you’ll get it this time:

honoring Mary by praying “through” her, acknowledging her role as a sinless Mother of God = good
Strictly Making a statue of her or anyone and bowing in front of it = bad

Exodus 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman

1 Samuel 12:21
Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

**Psalm 31:6
I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.
**

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image… to bow down unto it… Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord” (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 27:15).

Get it this time?
Buy hey its not my problem, its a problem against God because it goes against his own WORD.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Guys and lady, the whole argument is not about praying “through” Mary or revering Mary…do that if you want. I don’t find anything wrong with that…

When you put a statue representing someone + kneeling in front of it

Now a problem persists because you then get all the motions or physical enactment of idol worship. This isolated act indeed can be considered idol worship.

So its not about flowers or incense or candles that are the problem, its the idol statue that receives them which gives it casualty empowerment.
There are millions of ways to honor someone like Mary and the bottom line is kneeling in front of an idol statue of her is NOT one of them. How do I know this? Because the early Church Fathers and the apostles didn’t do it ( at least for the first 250 years) and every episode when bowing before a statue came it, the Bible forbade it. So shouldn’t we follow by their impeccable example?

You can give all outside examples like flowers for dead people in graves and pictures, etc…but that’s still not bowing in front of an idol statue which is highly condemned.
I hope you understand what I’m actually trying to say instead twisting my position and gear me towards condemning Catholics for honoring Mary as a whole, which I’m not.

So I’ll simplify again by stating the following so maybe you’ll get it this time:

honoring Mary by praying “through” her, acknowledging her role as a sinless Mother of God = good
Strictly Making a statue of her or anyone and bowing in front of it = bad

Exodus 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman

1 Samuel 12:21
Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

**Psalm 31:6
I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.
**

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image… to bow down unto it… Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord” (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 27:15).

Get it this time?
Buy hey its not my problem, its a problem against God because it goes against his own WORD.

No I don’t get it. It’s not an idol. It’s the same thing as having pictures of a loved one. An idol would be something you worship. The same as I told you about the difference between the golden calf and Mary, holds true with your analogy of a statue of satan. Those examples are throwing common sense out the window for the purposes of winning an argument on a subject you don’t understand or seem to want to understand. Your last sentence, even though it seems to be worded to provoke or win an argument is true, only God can see what is in one’s heart.

 

[rinnie]

That’s actually a poor example. When someone goes to the grave, they are asking God to pray for that deceased person’s soul OR they are talking to that dead person NOT asking that dead person to pray for them or praying “through” the dead person which is what Catholics do with Mary. So that argument is invalid…Now thats funny…

So let’s talk about pictures or photos of people. I use that for remembrance because it is a picture of an actual person! There is a difference between a photo of someone versus creating a statue of someone who I don’t even know what they look like…once again like Catholics do with Mary.

Also, do you bow in front of a photo of someone? Of course not.

Rinnie, I don’t have a problem bowing and closing my eyes and praying for someone or having someone pray for me. Thats biblically legitimate. However, praying and kneeling in front of a statue is a different story.

Please tell me what your definition of “idol” is or better yet, what the word “idol” entails according to the Bible. I am very interested to know your opinion because everything incident that I have found where any statue that was bowed down to was equated to idoltry for whatever intention.

 

[CWBetts]

Guys and lady, the whole argument is not about praying “through” Mary or revering Mary…do that if you want. I don’t find anything wrong with that…

When you put a statue representing someone + kneeling in front of it

Now a problem persists because you then get all the motions or physical enactment of idol worship. This isolated act indeed can be considered idol worship.

So its not about flowers or incense or candles that are the problem, its the idol statue that receives them which gives it casualty empowerment.
There are millions of ways to honor someone like Mary and the bottom line is kneeling in front of an idol statue of her is NOT one of them. How do I know this? Because the early Church Fathers and the apostles didn’t do it ( at least for the first 250 years) and every episode when bowing before a statue came it, the Bible forbade it. So shouldn’t we follow by their impeccable example?

You can give all outside examples like flowers for dead people in graves and pictures, etc…but that’s still not bowing in front of an idol statue which is highly condemned.
I hope you understand what I’m actually trying to say instead twisting my position and gear me towards condemning Catholics for honoring Mary as a whole, which I’m not.

So I’ll simplify again by stating the following so maybe you’ll get it this time:

honoring Mary by praying “through” her, acknowledging her role as a sinless Mother of God = good
Strictly Making a statue of her or anyone and bowing in front of it = bad

Exodus 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman

1 Samuel 12:21
Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

**Psalm 31:6
I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.
**

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image… to bow down unto it… Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord” (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 27:15).

Get it this time?
Buy hey its not my problem, its a problem against God because it goes against his own WORD.

Bowing can be worship. Praying can be worship. Preaching sermons about some one can be worship. Lighting candles can be worship. Singing hymns can be worship. But they can also be simple veneration, which is distinct form true worship. The highlight of Catholic worship is the Mass. Mass is not offered to Mary, or any of the Saints. Mass id for God alone.

 

[rinnie]

Sorry my last post did not go through. BUt yes I do ask the dead to pray for me. When I visit my Dad I ask him to pray for me and I pray for him. As a RC I don’t believe in death. I believe that my Dad is alive and has eternal life. The same with my brother and my Baby. I believe that Jesus took away death. So yes I ask them to Pray for me also.

Do I replace them with God. NO. Do I believe that they are idols NO,

I have no idols but GOD. He is the only idol I have. He is the only person I worship.

So sorry because I do believe that my Dad watches down on me and my Children. the same with my Baby and Brother. I believe they are all in heaven and can see us. And I believe with Gods help they can also protect us like angels.

 

[rinnie]

Also if we look at a statue of Mary, Do we look at that statue and think of her as Mary or God. Mary is the correct answer. We do not worship false idols. When we pray in front of the Blessed Mother we feel that she is there also in Spirit praying with us.

When we look at a statue of Jesus do we worship the statue, of course not. But we look at it and know that Jesus is our God.

We know who the Blessed Mother is. She is the Mother or God. ANd we know who Jesus is, he is God. And we know what statues are. Its not who or what we look at when we pray, its who our prayers are going to. And that is Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Exodus 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman

1 Samuel 12:21
Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

**Psalm 31:6
I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.
**

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image… to bow down unto it… Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord” (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 27:15).

You know, I can understand how you interpret the above verses to question the subject of statues. Let me ask you this, does God contradict Himself in His inspired word?

**Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.

Num 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.
Num 21:9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.**

Was the Temple that Solomon built an abomination to the Lord, because he added carvings and statues?

1Ki 6:11 And the word of the Lord came to Solomon,
1Ki 6:12 As for this house, which thou art building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments, walking in them, I will fulfil my word to thee, which I spoke to David thy father.
1Ki 6:13 And I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel, and I will not forsake my people Israel.
1Ki 6:14 So Solomon built the house, and finished it.

1Ki 9:3 And the Lord said to him: I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, which thou hast made before me: I have sanctified this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and my eyes, and my heart, shall be there always.

When a statue of a saint, one who dedicated their life to the Lord or submitted completely to His will, or a statue of His Son, is placed in a Church, it is an example that brings God to mind, it is not in itself and idol.

 

[LutheranDK]

You know as a kid my dad always said go to the Blessed Mother. She know’s pain, She saw her son hung on a cross. No one has sufferered like the Blessed Mother.

As A Mother every day those words come to life for me.

Go to her. She does not have the Power of Christ but she has the love of Christ to help you.

She is the MOTHER of GOD. Do you not believe that she can help you. Please quit the nonsense of saying she can’t do this or that.

GOD picked her. Give her your pain. give her your problems. And believe if God could have called on her to take the pain of seeing her son suffer, she can help you also.

Go to your Mother she is the Mother that is perfect. Try it . I swear to you she can help you.

What Son or daughter who loves their Mother can refuse her. Don’t you think Jesus is the same!

Trust her! God gave her to you as he was hanging on the Cross. Trust her, as God trusted her!

I appreciate that your post was not written out of snug arrogance (like most posts I’ve read on this subject are), but out of care for “us”. So thank you for that

However, you have not done anything else than make a lot of statements. You have not backed them up at all. And even though I’m not calling you a liar, the possibility remains that it is you who are in the wrong on this one, and not “us”, just as the reverse might be true.

See, the reason I say this here is that I’ve seen a number of threads that practically called people who don’t venerate (and yes, I do know the difference between worship and veneration) the Virgin Mary stupid, arrogant, selfish and lots of other nasty things, just because we ask for further evidence than “because the RC church say so”.

I have yet to see a single solid, biblical, argument for the kind of emphasis the RC church places on Mary.