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firstmode
Guest
Can people in heaven watch others having sex or watching pornography on earth?
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firstmode
Guest
I say these things because I do not believe that people in heaven can look down upon earth and it’s dark sin.
God can see us all at all times, he is omniscient and omnipresent.
People in heaven are not omniscient or omnipresent. I do not believe they can look down and watch this dark world as if it is some kind of movie or storyline to follow. They are separated from darkness and sin.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Hello firstmode:
Respectfully, are you limiting Heaven to your own beliefs or comprehension?
HC
H
Hercules253
Guest
OK so you say a Mary statue is not an idol because idols are worshiped?..But its still considered an image and God distintively mentions both an image and an idol as in the following:
Leviticus 26:1
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
But even though you say its not considered an idol its still an image and that doesn’t change the fact that you are still not allowed to bow to any image!! How much more clear is God suppose to be? The context is clear as crystal for us to understand and God is not the author of confusion.
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath… Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” (Exodus 20:4,5; Deut. 5:8,9)
Once again, even though you say its not worshipping, you’re still not allowed to bow to an image wether its for worship or not!
Bowing down and getting on your knees is an act of worship and a statue of Mary is still an image and likeness. The terminology is not the issue. Whether the practice is described as “worship” or “veneration,” “idol” or “image” or any other term, the problem is the same. The Bible no where instructs us to kneel or bow before anyone or revere anyone how much more a statue and image alone.
If Peter, the Rock of the Catholic Church, rejects his own reverence then why do you think its permissable to revere Mary or much yet, a statue of Mary?
ACTS 10:25
25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
You can try to justify that by saying its because Mary is sinless and the Mother of God. Yet, she was still human like Peter. Peter says “dont bow down to me and do not revere me for I am just a man” and we know that Mary was a woman because Jesus calls her that (John 2:4, Rev 12:1). She deserves honor but not the honor of bowing especially to her statue or image.
Pope Gregory III condemned the use of images. Pope Constantine V, who ruled the church for almost sixty years, condemned the use of images of Christ as heretical because only Christ’s human nature could be depicted. A church council which met near Chalcedon on February 10, 753 (and lasted seven months), condemned the use of images in worship as being “idolatrous and heretical, a temptation to the faith that originated with the devil.”* ( Philip E. Hughes, The Church in Crisis: A History of the General Councils, 325-1870, p. 167. ) *
So much for the idea the unchanging church! What happened to the Catholic Church now???
You’re really straining the meaning and context a little too hard by being excessively technical and reading too much into the lines as most Catholics do to get around this typical scenario when its deliberately clear that we are not to bow down or venerate a statue or image (whether its for worship or not)
**If you want Mary to pray for you, then close your eyes and ask for it but NOT kneeling and bowing in front of a statue.
If you want to honor Mary, then honor her but NOT by sending a image or statue flowers, candles and incense**
Honor her by listening to her son’s Words and God’s commandments especially against images and statues!
C
CWBetts
Guest
This is getting reeeeeeeaaaaly annoying.
OK so you say a Mary statue is not an idol because idols are worshiped?..But its still considered an image and God distintively mentions both an image and an idol as in the following:
Leviticus 26:1
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
But even though you say its not considered an idol its still an image and that doesn’t change the fact that you are still not allowed to bow to any image!! How much more clear is God suppose to be? The context is clear as crystal for us to understand and God is not the author of confusion.
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath… Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” (Exodus 20:4,5; Deut. 5:8,9)
Once again, even though you say its not worshipping, you’re still not allowed to bow to an image wether its for worship or not!
Bowing down and getting on your knees is an act of worship and a statue of Mary is still an image and likeness. The terminology is not the issue. Whether the practice is described as “worship” or “veneration,” “idol” or “image” or any other term, the problem is the same. The Bible no where instructs us to kneel or bow before anyone or revere anyone how much more a statue and image alone.
If Peter, the Rock of the Catholic Church, rejects his own reverence then why do you think its permissable to revere Mary or much yet, a statue of Mary?
ACTS 10:25
25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
You can try to justify that by saying its because Mary is sinless and the Mother of God. Yet, she was still human like Peter. Peter says “dont bow down to me and do not revere me for I am just a man” and we know that Mary was a woman because Jesus calls her that (John 2:4, Rev 12:1). She deserves honor but not the honor of bowing especially to her statue or image.
Pope Gregory III condemned the use of images. Pope Constantine V, who ruled the church for almost sixty years, condemned the use of images of Christ as heretical because only Christ’s human nature could be depicted. A church council which met near Chalcedon on February 10, 753 (and lasted seven months), condemned the use of images in worship as being “idolatrous and heretical, a temptation to the faith that originated with the devil.”* ( Philip E. Hughes, The Church in Crisis: A History of the General Councils, 325-1870, p. 167. ) *
So much for the idea the unchanging church! What happened to the Catholic Church now???
You’re really straining the meaning and context a little too hard by being excessively technical and reading too much into the lines as most Catholics do to get around this typical scenario when its deliberately clear that we are not to bow down or venerate a statue or image (whether its for worship or not)
**If you want Mary to pray for you, then close your eyes and ask for it but NOT kneeling and bowing in front of a statue.
If you want to honor Mary, then honor her but NOT by sending a image or statue flowers, candles and incense**
Honor her by listening to her son’s Words and God’s commandments especially against images and statues!
You: You Catholics worship Mary! You’re idolaters!
Us: No we don’t. We warship God alone, we merely honor her!
You: No! You worship her!
Us: No, we don’t.
You
o too!Us: Do not!
ad nauseum…
What makes you think you know our beliefs more than we know our beliefs? How supremely arrogant is that? So, for onle last time: WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY! WE GIVE HER HONOR. WE WORSHIP GOD ALONE!
B
Benjamin8o8
Guest
No offense but it really dosen
t matter what you believe brother, because for one, before there was even an assembly of **God** started by *man* the Catholic Church which by the way was established by **God** has existed prior to your protestant beliefs. Which means, we already believed in the intervention of Church until MAN altered this belief. So if you dont agree with us to this point then I have nothing else to say to you exept you should follow Jesus Christ and not MAN.And if you would be so kind, can you tell us what happened when Jesus took two of His deciples up in a mountain when God appeared to all 5 of them. Oh wait, did I just say 5? Didn`t I say Jesus only took 2 deciples. Why did I say 5 Firstmode, why?
H
Hisalone
Guest
The three Hebrew boys refused to bow down before a statue of Nebechanezzer at the risk of their own lives. They could have very easily knelt there and in silence say I am not worshipping this statue but they refused.
OK so you say a Mary statue is not an idol because idols are worshiped?..But its still considered an image and God distintively mentions both an image and an idol as in the following:
Pope Gregory III condemned the use of images. Pope Constantine V, who ruled the church for almost sixty years, condemned the use of images of Christ as heretical because only Christ’s human nature could be depicted. A church council which met near Chalcedon on February 10, 753 (and lasted seven months), condemned the use of images in worship as being “idolatrous and heretical, a temptation to the faith that originated with the devil.”* ( Philip E. Hughes, The Church in Crisis: A History of the General Councils, 325-1870, p. 167. ) *
So much for the idea the unchanging church! What happened to the Catholic Church now???
You’re really straining the meaning and context a little too hard by being excessively technical and reading too much into the lines as most Catholics do to get around this typical scenario when its deliberately clear that we are not to bow down or venerate a statue or image (whether its for worship or not)
**If you want Mary to pray for you, then close your eyes and ask for it but NOT kneeling and bowing in front of a statue.
If you want to honor Mary, then honor her but NOT by sending a image or statue flowers, candles and incense**
Honor her by listening to her son’s Words and God’s commandments especially against images and statues!
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Hello Hercules253,
I’m not responding to this post to give you a chance to read through to my post after the one you quoted. If I accepted your interpretations, I believe it causes God’s word to contradict itself, as I tried to demonstrate in that post.
W
Walden
Guest
Hey Hercules, I knelt by my bed last night and prayed. Under your theory, would I be worshiping my bed? How about the wall? Or the window? Past those I think there is another apartment building, trees, and an interstate.
I guess the solution would be to never kneel since, most of the time, there will be something in front of you that you would automatically begin to worship.
This is how I understand your logic.
I guess the solution would be to never kneel since, most of the time, there will be something in front of you that you would automatically begin to worship.
This is how I understand your logic.
B
Benjamin8o8
Guest
C
CWBetts
Guest
Is that your argument???
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
A multitude of Hebrews knelt down before statues of cherubims.
Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.
Another multitude looked up to an image of a serpent.
Num 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.
Num 21:9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.
A Kingdom worshipped before many statues and graven images.
**1Ki 6:23 And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height.
1Ki 6:24 One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing.
1Ki 6:25 The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims:
1Ki 6:26 That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub.
1Ki 6:27 And he set the cherubims in the midst of the inner temple: and the cherubims stretched forth their wings, and the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall: and the other wings in the midst of the temple touched one another.
1Ki 6:28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.
1Ki 6:29 And all the walls of the temple round about he carved with divers figures and carvings: and he made in them cherubims and palm trees, and divers representations, as it were standing out, and coming forth from the wall.
1Ki 7:25 And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east: and the sea was above upon them, and their hinder parts were all hid within.
1Ki 7:26 And the laver was a hand breadth thick: and the brim thereof was like the brim of a cup, or the leaf of a crisped lily: it contained two thousand bates.
1Ki 7:27 And he made ten bases of brass, every base was four cubits in length, and four cubits in breadth, and three cubits high.
1Ki 7:28 And the work itself of the bases, was intergraven: and there were gravings between the joinings.
1Ki 7:29 And between the little crowns and the ledges, were lions, and oxen, and cherubims; and in the joinings likewise above: and under the lions and oxen, as it were bands of brass hanging down.
1Ki 7:30 And every base had four wheels, and axletrees of brass: and at the four sides were undersetters, under the laver molten, looking one against another.
1Ki 7:31 The mouth also of the laver within, was in the top of the chapiter: and that which appeared without, was of one cubit all round, and together it was one cubit and a half: and in the corners of the pillars were divers engravings: and the spaces between the pillars were square, not round.
1Ki 7:32 And the four whee]s, which were at the four corners of the base, were joined one to another under the base: the height of a wheel was a cubit and a half.
1Ki 7:33 And they were such wheels as are used to be made in a chariot: and their axletrees, and spokes, and strakes, and naves, were all cast.
1Ki 7:34 And the four undersetters, that were at every corner of each base, were of the base itself, cast and joined together.
1Ki 7:35 And on the top of the base, there was a round compass of half a cubit, so wrought that the laver might be set thereon, having its gravings, and divers sculptures of itself.
1Ki 7:36 He engraved also in those plates, which were of brass, and in the corners, cherubims, and lions, and palm trees, in likeness of a man standing, so that they seemed not to be engraven, but added round about.
1Ki 7:37 After this manner, he made ten bases, of one casting and measure, and the like graving.
1Ki 7:38 He made also ten lavers of brass: one laver contained four bates, and was of four cubits: and upon every base, in all ten, he put as many lavers.
1Ki 7:39 And he set the ten bases, five on the right side of the temple, and five on the left: and the sea he put on the right side of the temple, over against the east southward.
1Ki 7:40 And Hiram made cauldrons, and shovels, and basins, and finished all the work of king Solomon in the temple of the Lord.
1Ki 7:41 The two pillars and the two cords of the chapiters, upon the chapiters of the pillars: and the two networks, to cover the two cords, that were upon the top of the pillars.
1Ki 7:42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks: two rows of pomegranates for each network, to cover the cords of the chapiters, which were upon the tops of the pillars.
1Ki 7:43 And the ten bases, and the ten lavers on the bases.
1Ki 7:44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea.
1Ki 7:45 And the cauldrons, and the shovels, and the basins. All the vessels that Hiram made for king Solomon, for the house of the Lord, were of fine brass.**
B
Benjamin8o8
Guest
wow, you sound more like a Christian then a protestant:thumbsup:
L
Lizziebel
Guest
When we kneel, it is in worship of our Lord.
Kneeling or bowing down to statues does not happen. I’m actually not sure where the idea comes from other than the fact that there happen to simply be statues in the sanctuary. The commandment in question is not broken by respect or petitions given through prayer to Mary, which has nothing to do with any statue and is not done bowing or kneeling, in order to draw closer to God.
It would be wonderful to see this misconception of “bowing to statues” finally cleared up!
In peace and love,
Elizabeth
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Benjamin8o8
Guest
Mary suffered way more then you, you
re eyes are just closed to see that. I am really sorry for your loss but you are nobody to say such a thing. I am highly offended at your statement, how could you possibly compare yourself to the Virgin Mary sufferings! **YOU CANT** You see, we all have to suffer but in the end, there is always a mysterious reason behind it. Suffering is part of life because sin has entered the world. But Jesus Christ suffered to free us from sin. When a mother gives birth to a son and he grows up, and he chooses to walk in the right path and starts abusing people, curses his own relatives, uses drugs, lies cheats and steals, and all of a sudden if his mother happenes to witness his death, are you really going to tell me shes going to suffer as much as a mother who lost a son who was the exact opposite? No shes not, no matter how much she loves her evil son, you can not compare the sufferings of them two. This is why it`s always a tradgedy to see if a child dies, because they are usually pure and innocent.So when The Blessed Mary saw Her Son (who by the way was the REDEEMER OF THE WORLD) being crucified, the pain She had to endure was like no other! She knew Jesus was the Massiah, She knew He came to SAVE the world but in return the world pinned Him to the cross! Now you
re innocent child had to suffer and Im sorry, but he was an innocent child only because he didnt have the chance to sin. Jesus didn´t only have the chance to sin, but he free-willingy humbled HIMSELF to be among us! Jesus did so much for us, but yet all he got in return was being hung up high on the cross for His own Mother to witness it. so please, you have no idea what youre talking about. No creation suffered as much as Gods OWN Mother.may God forgive you for saying such a horrible thing.
H
Hercules253
Guest
Do you revere your bed? Does your bed have any spiritual meaning or represent something symbolic other than itself? Do you send flowers or light candles for your bed?I hope not, because if it does, then that’s pretty scary…
Nice attempt but you missed what I was trying to say.
C
CWBetts
Guest
Everything, every single thing that you have said about how Catholics “worship” the Blessed Mother has been in error. Why have you decided to come to a Catholic forum? It certainly wasn’t to learn, or have ameaningful dialogue. So far all you have done is attack Catholicism by misrepresenting our faith. What is it you hope to accomplish?Do you revere your bed? Does your bed have any spiritual meaning or represent something symbolic other than itself? Do you send flowers or light candles for your bed?I hope not, because if it does, then that’s pretty scary…
Nice attempt but you missed what I was trying to say.
H
Hercules253
Guest
Wow, completely missed my point because you’re getting ahead of yourself…now that’s annoyingThis is getting reeeeeeeaaaaly annoying.
You: You Catholics worship Mary! You’re idolaters!
Us: No we don’t. We warship God alone, we merely honor her!
You: No! You worship her!
Us: No, we don’t.
You
Us: Do not!
ad nauseum…
What makes you think you know our beliefs more than we know our beliefs? How supremely arrogant is that? So, for onle last time: WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY! WE GIVE HER HONOR. WE WORSHIP GOD ALONE!
Me: Honoring Mary is good
You: Honoring Mary is good
Bible: N/A
Me: using a statue or image to honor Mary is bad
You: using a statue or image to honor Mary is good
Bible: using a statue or image to honor Mary is condemned
Me: specifically bowing down to a statue of anyone including Mary is bad
You: bowing down to a statue of Mary or anyone is acceptable
Bible: specifically bowing down to a statue of anyone including Mary is bad
Survey says: Bible wins and I’ll take Gods Word anytime
Heres the Bottom line: EVEN HONORING A STATUE OF ANYONE BY BOWING DOWN
IS CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE!!!..
I didn’t make it up talk to the Big Guy upstairs.
Its NOT an argument about worship and honoring, its an argument about statues and bowing before them. How do you not understand that to this point?
You just don’t get it and keep talking about worshiping and honoring which is not the point I’m making!! Others in this forum understand exactly what I’m talking about except YOU!! I’m arguing about apples and you keep talking about oranges…seriously!!!
geeeeez
H
Hercules253
Guest
Do you want to know my point?
Why do Catholics bow in front of a statue and revere it when The Bible says not to, the apostles didn’t do it, and the early church fathers condemned the use of bowing before a statue?
Its NOT about Mary, its not about honoring, and its not about worship…and you keep thinking that for some strange reason up to this point.
I’m using Mary as an illustration because she most commonly attached to uses of statues
The funny thing is that you neglect to even research your own faith and you believe because you were probably one of those Catholics that were raised up to believe EVERY single little thing because some dead bishops said so (even though they were in disagreement) and history proves it.
Why are you even commenting me when you fail to answer the main focal point and run off tangents? If you can’t answer the main question then keep your comments and opinions to yourself.
- Status