Protestants, Look at Polycarp

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Polycarp, a disciple of John the Apostle.

Quote from Wikipedia:

Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp), who remembered him from his youth, said of him: “a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics”. Polycarp lived in an age after the deaths of the apostles, when a variety of interpretations of the sayings of Jesus were being preached. His role was to authenticate orthodox teachings through his known connection with the apostle John: “a high value was attached to the witness Polycarp could give as to the genuine tradition of old apostolic doctrine,” Wace commented, "his testimony condemning as offensive novelties the figments of the heretical teachers. Irenaeus states (iii. 3) that on Polycarp’s visit to Rome his testimony converted many disciples of Marcion and Valentinus. Surviving accounts of the bravery of this very old man in the face of death by burning at the stake added credence to his words.

The only known surviving work of his is his Letter to the Philippians, faithfully preserved by Irenaeus.

Another proof that Protestantism is false!

 

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Irenaeus mentions Polycarp in Adv. Haer., III.3.4.

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

Irenaeus also mentions Polycarp in his letter to Florinus.
These opinions, Florinus, that I may speak in mild terms, are not of sound doctrine; these opinions are not consonant to the Church, and involve their votaries in the utmost impiety; these opinions, even the heretics beyond the Church's pale have never ventured to broach; these opinions, those presbyters who preceded us, and who were conversant with the apostles, did not hand down to thee. For, while I was yet a boy, I saw thee in Lower Asia with Polycarp, distinguishing thyself in the royal court, and endeavouring to gain his approbation. For I have a more vivid recollection of what occurred at that time than of recent events (inasmuch as the experiences of childhood, keeping pace with the growth of the soul, become incorporated with it); so that I can even describe the place where the blessed Polycarp used to sit and discourse-his going out, too, and his coming in-his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received [information] from the eye-witnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. These things, through, God's mercy which was upon me, I then listened to attentively, and treasured them up not on paper, but in my heart; and I am continually, by God's grace, revolving these things accurately in my mind. And I can bear witness before God, that if that blessed and apostolical presbyter had heard any such thing, he would have cried out, and stopped his ears, exclaiming as he was wont to do: "O good God, for what times hast Thou reserved me, that I should endure these things? "And he would have fled from the very spot where, sitting or standing, he had heard such words. This fact, too, can be made clear, from his Epistles which he despatched, whether to the neighbouring Churches to confirm them, or to certain of the brethren, admonishing and exhorting them.

 

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Irenaeus also mentions Polycarp in his letter to Pope Victor.

For the controversy is not merely as regards the day, but also as regards the form itself of the fast. For some consider themselves hound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day. And this variety among the observers [of the fasts] had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors, some of whom probably, being not very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy, been [introduced among them]. And yet nevertheless all these lived in peace one with another, and we also keep peace together. Thus, in fact, the difference [in observing] the fast establishes the harmony of [our common] faith. And the presbyters preceding Sorer in the government of the Church which thou dost now rule-I mean, Anicetus and Pius, Hyginus and Telesphorus, and Sixtus-did neither themselves observe it [after that fashion], nor permit those with them to do so. Notwithstanding this, those who did not keep [the feast in this way] were peacefully disposed towards those who came to them from other dioceses in which it was [so] observed (although such observance was [felt] in more decided contrariety [as presented] to those who did not fall in with it; and none were ever cast out [of the Church] for this matter. On the contrary, those presbyters who preceded thee, and who did not observe [this custom], sent the Eucharist to those of other dioceses who did observe it. And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way], for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him. And in this state of affairs they held fellowship with each other; and Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect; so that they parted in peace one from the other, maintaining peace with the whole Church, both those who did observe [this custom] and those who did not.

Jerome provides the following summary in Illustrious Men 17.
Polycarp disciple of the apostle John and** by him ordained bishop of Smyrna** was chief of all Asia, where he saw and had as teachers some of the apostles and of those who had seen the Lord. He, on account of certain questions concerning the day of the Passover, went to Rome in the time of the emperor Antoninus Pius while Anicetus ruled the church in that city. There he led back to the faith many of the believers who had been deceived through the persuasion of Marcion and Valentinus, and when. Marcion met him by chance and said "Do you know us" he replied, "I know the firstborn of the devil." Afterwards during the reign of Marcus Antoninus and Lucius Aurelius Commodus in the fourth persecution after Nero, in the presence of the proconsul holding court at Smyrna and all the people crying out against him in the Amphitheater, he was burned. He wrote a very valuable Epistle to the Philippians which is read to the present day in the meetings in Asia.

 

[Cachonga]

shoewindow3000:

The only known surviving work of his is his Letter to the Philippians, faithfully preserved by Irenaeus.

Another proof that Protestantism is false!

OK, I give up. How does this prove Protestantism is false?

BTW - did you know that Irenaeus taught that Jesus was over 50 years old when He was crucified (Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter XXII, Paragraph 6), and he claims this was taught by John and the other Apostles (Paragraph 5)? I guess that would prove the ECF’s are not infallible!

 

[shoewindow3000]

What is your point?

Nobody claims ECFs are infallible.

If you read it, he says something along the lines of older than thirty, no more than fifty.

Besides, we are talking about Polycarp.

 

[twb1621]

OK, I give up. How does this prove Protestantism is false?

BTW - did you know that Irenaeus taught that Jesus was over 50 years old when He was crucified (Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter XXII, Paragraph 6), and he claims this was taught by John and the other Apostles (Paragraph 5)? I guess that would prove the ECF’s are not infallible!

You should give more care to what you are referring to. You didn’t check into what “Aeons” referred to or represent.

"In different Gnostic systems the hierarchy of Aeons was diversely elaborated. But in all are recognizable a mixture of Platonic, mythological, and Christian elements. There is always the primitive all-perfect Æon, the fountain-head of divinity, and a co-eternal companion Æon. From these emanate a second pair who, in turn, engender others, generally in pairs, or in groups of pairs, in keeping with the Egyptianidea of divine couples. One of these inferior Æons, desiring to know the unknowable, to penetrate the secrets of the primal Æon, brings disorder into the Æon-world, is exiled, and brings forth a very imperfect Æon, who, being unworthy of a place in the Pleroma, brings the divine spark to the nether world. Then follows the creation of the material universe.
Finally, there is evolved the Æon Christ, who is to restore harmony in the Æon-world, and heal the disorder in the material world consequent upon the catastrophe in the ideal order, by giving to man the knowledge which will rescue him from the dominion of matter and evil. The number of Æons varies with different systems, being determined in some by Pythagorean and Platonicideas on the mystic efficacy of numbers; in others by epochs in, or the duration of, the life of Christ. The Æons were given names, each Gnostic system having its own catalogue, suggested by Christian terminology, and by Oriental, or philosophical and mythological nomenclature. There were nearly as many aeonic hierarchies as there were Gnostic systems, but the most elaborate of these, as far as is known, was that of Valentinus, whose fusion of Christianity and Platonism is so completely described in the refutation of this system by St. Irenæus and Tertullian. (See GNOSTICISM, VALENTINUS, BASILIDES, PTOLEMY.) "

newadvent.org/cathen/01173c.htm

 

[LionHeart777]

I guess that would prove the ECF’s are not infallible!

Cachonga,

Possibly you misunderstood St. Irenaeus, but even if you didn’t… I don’t think that Catholics claim that they are.

 

[Cachonga]

shoewindow3000:

Besides, we are talking about Polycarp.

So why didn’t you answer my question (“How does this prove Protestantism is false?”)? Instead, you (and twb1621 and LionHeart77) spent time commenting on a passing comment (the point of which was to show that the ECF’s are not infallible, which we all agree on).

 

[LionHeart777]

which we all agree on

I digress.

 

[twb1621]

So why didn’t you answer my question (“How does this prove Protestantism is false?”)? Instead, you (and twb1621 and LionHeart77) spent time commenting on a passing comment (the point of which was to show that the ECF’s are not infallible, which we all agree on).

I was providing you the information for you to better understand the writing you referred to. It wasn’t necessary to repeat to you what had already been told to you previously. I hope it helped.

And how did you become a former RC.

 

[twb1621]

So why didn’t you answer my question (“How does this prove Protestantism is false?”)? Instead, you (and twb1621 and LionHeart77) spent time commenting on a passing comment (the point of which was to show that the ECF’s are not infallible, which we all agree on).

Unless there was another reason, I imagine the following is what shoewindow3000 referred to in his comment;

Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism and were finally absorbed by it.

newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm

Valentinus, the best known and most influential of the Gnosticheretics, was born according to Epiphanius (Haer., XXXI) on the coast of Egypt. He was trained in Hellenistic science in Alexandria. Like many other heretical teachers he went to Rome the better, perhaps to disseminate his views. He arrived there during the pontificate of Hyginus and remained until the pontificate of Anicetus. During a sojourn of perhaps fifteen years, though he had in the beginning allied himself with the orthodox community in Rome, he was guilty of attempting to establish his heretical system. His errors led to his excommunication, after which he repaired to Cyprus where he resumed his activities as a teacher and where he died probably about 160 or 161.

newadvent.org/cathen/15256a.htm

Now how is it you are a former Roman Catholic and what do you consider yourself now?

 

[Cachonga]

twb1621:

I was providing you the information for you to better understand the writing you referred to. It wasn’t necessary to repeat to you what had already been told to you previously. I hope it helped.

And how did you become a former RC.

The information was interesting, and is helpful in understanding the heresy Irenaeus was arguing against.

How I became a former RC is a long story (and way off topic). Cliff Notes version - Sola Scriptura.

 

[twb1621]

The information was interesting, and is helpful in understanding the heresy Irenaeus was arguing against.

How I became a former RC is a long story (and way off topic). Cliff Notes version - Sola Scriptura.

Thank you for an honest reply. I’d like to discuss that further if you are interested perhaps in a thread you start as you wish.

 

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Martin Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayer books, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews’ property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these “poisonous envenomed worms” would be forced into labor or expelled “for all time,” and you consider him to be a man sent from God.
He even wrote a book entitled “On the Jews and Their Lies.”

Yet, Irenaeus, a holy man of God, says one little thing (that is interpreted incorrectly) and you* condemn* him!

Didn’t Jesus tell us, “You will know a tree by its fruits”?

 

[shoewindow3000]

So why didn’t you answer my question (“How does this prove Protestantism is false?”)? Instead, you (and twb1621 and LionHeart77) spent time commenting on a passing comment (the point of which was to show that the ECF’s are not infallible, which we all agree on).

It proves Protestantism wrong by proving tradition and orthodoxy right.

 

[shoewindow3000]

Also, look at Igntaius (35-108)

On the Eucharist, Ignatius wrote in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.

Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1

 

[Cachonga]

twb1621 - that is a long story, and I have covered parts of it in other threads. I will not start a thread to discuss this, however, I will not refuse a discussing by way of PM.

shoewindow3000:

Didn’t Jesus tell us, “You will know a tree by its fruits”?

And what does your ad hominen arguements say about you? I do not believe in the infallibility of Martin Luther any more than I believe in the infallibility of the pope (or the ECF’s, or myself). Since Irenaeus is not the topic, I will not attempt to prove my interpretation is correct.

shoewindow3000:

It proves Protestantism wrong by proving tradition and orthodoxy right.

OK, so can you show me where Polycarp taught that Mary was immaculately conceived or bodily assumed (just to name a couple of “traditions”)? I do not disagree with traditions, but I will follow the example of Jesus and compare “traditions” with the Scriptures to see if they are worthy traditions, or merely traditions of men (read Mark 7:5-13).

shoewindow3000:

Also, look at Igntaius (35-108)

If your topic is Polycarp, why are you now going to Ignatius? I mentioned Irenaeus in passing to show that the ECF’s were not infallible. If you want to discuss the ECF’s, then start a thread to that effect, but the topic here is Polycarp on traditions, and you have not proven your point (I would suggest that bringing in Ignatius on the Eucharist shows how weak your original assertion really is).

 

[CalCatholic]

OK, I give up. How does this prove Protestantism is false?

BTW - did you know that Irenaeus taught that Jesus was over 50 years old when He was crucified (Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter XXII, Paragraph 6), and he claims this was taught by John and the other Apostles (Paragraph 5)? I guess that would prove the ECF’s are not infallible!

For one thing it shows apostolic succession; John the apostle was taught by Jesus, Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch over lapped the time of Peter and Paul (Clement was in Rome during their time there), Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle (in John’s older age). Ireneus had met Polycarp. The writings and teachings of all these men combined form an Orthodoxy that they passed on through the Church that Ignatius called the ‘Catholic Church’ in 107 A.D. The Catholic Church passed on these Orthodox teachings through present time. The Catechism of the Catholic is full of quotes from the Scriptures and these early Church Fathers.

 

[Cachonga]

CalCatholic:

For one thing it shows apostolic succession; John the apostle was taught by Jesus, Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch over lapped the time of Peter and Paul (Clement was in Rome during their time there), Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle (in John’s older age). Ireneus had met Polycarp. The writings and teachings of all these men combined form an Orthodoxy that they passed on through the Church that Ignatius called the ‘Catholic Church’ in 107 A.D. The Catholic Church passed on these Orthodox teachings through present time. The Catechism of the Catholic is full of quotes from the Scriptures and these early Church Fathers.

Riight! Someone discipled by the Apostle John (and ordained a Bishop of a city other than Rome) is more authoritative than the Bishop of Rome (was he even called “Pope” at that time?). How could I have missed that? Who discipled Anicetus (Bishop of Rome when these things occurred)? Why was Polycarp able to succeed in converting heretics in Rome, when Anicetus couldn’t (apparently, the heretics did very well in Rome until Polycarp showed up)?

 

[shoewindow3000]

Riight! Someone discipled by the Apostle John (and ordained a Bishop of a city other than Rome) is more authoritative than the Bishop of Rome (was he even called “Pope” at that time?).

No, but a disciple of John is much more authoritative and knowledgeable than a heretical priest 1500 years later…
If you read all the early church fathers, you get a very clear picture of the church in the early years. Maybe if Martin Luther had studied them a little more, he would have realized the error of his ways.

Which gets me thinking- Protestants think that the Catholic Church’s teachings contradict the Bible. Well, if that is the case, then why did the Catholic Church decide to canonize A New Testament that would contradict what they teach? Does that make very much sense?
That would be sort of like an Evangelical minister recommending his followers to read the Catechism!

Who discipled Anicetus (Bishop of Rome when these things occurred)? Why was Polycarp able to succeed in converting heretics in Rome, when Anicetus couldn’t (apparently, the heretics did very well in Rome until Polycarp showed up)?

The same reason why Protestants don’t listen to the Pope today…they don’t accept his authority.
Think about it- if Matthew suddenly came back from the dead and said that the Catholic Church was the True Church, would you listen to him? I assume so. It would be because of his testimony that you would accept the authority of the Pope.

Polycarp could do something that the Pope could not-Polycarp could convey a sense of authority, because he knew the Apostles (unlike the Pope).