Protestants not believing in Hell

[FabiusMaximus]

Long.story.short.

I was chatting with a Protestant co-worker and when I said something about St. Michael, they waved me off and said they never heard of him. I told them he cast Lucifer from Heaven and they further waved me off saying there was no such thing as Lucifer. I was shocked when they further said there was no Hell that God doesn’t send anyone there because it doesn’t exist. When I asked where unrepenant sinners go, they told me that “everyone is saved”.

Fast forward to today.

I spoked to a cousin of my wife’s and they are Souther Baptist. In mentioning theological things, I mention Hell and they waved me off too. They told me that there is no such place as Hell and Lucifer is “just a ghost”. When I tell them Jesus spoke of Gehenna, they told me that it was an emotional Hell, not a literal one!

Anyone else encounter types like this lately?

The only denominations that I know of that officially reject the doctrine of Hell are the Seventh-Day Adventists. I think they believe that the soul is simply annihilated upon death, just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses (although the latter are simply not Christian). The Mormons also reject hell as we conceive it in Christianity, but I do think they have something called the “Outer Darkness” - which I’m not entirely sure what it is.

I assume whoever you spoke to either simply does not care about what his/her church teaches or is part of a very liberal congregation that simply doesn’t believe in it anymore. Some people also discussed universalism on this thread, but I don’t think any Christian denomination officially teaches that all people will be saved. Or is there one? It seems to just be a heresy that is seeping into all the Christian churches.

 

[TobyLue]

Long.story.short.

I was chatting with a Protestant co-worker and when I said something about St. Michael, they waved me off and said they never heard of him. I told them he cast Lucifer from Heaven and they further waved me off saying there was no such thing as Lucifer. I was shocked when they further said there was no Hell that God doesn’t send anyone there because it doesn’t exist. When I asked where unrepenant sinners go, they told me that “everyone is saved”.

Fast forward to today.

I spoked to a cousin of my wife’s and they are Souther Baptist. In mentioning theological things, I mention Hell and they waved me off too. They told me that there is no such place as Hell and Lucifer is “just a ghost”. When I tell them Jesus spoke of Gehenna, they told me that it was an emotional Hell, not a literal one!

Anyone else encounter types like this lately?

You might want to read this from CA catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

 

[ComplineSanFran]

A Church that encourages it’s members to practice buggery & that has Clergy who openly practice buggery is not a “branch of the Church”…
…It’s something else all together.

‘Practice buggery’? Hmmm. Interesting turn of phrase.

I’m going out on a limb to say that I don’t believe it is really up to you whom Christ loves and considers part of his Body. Perhaps best left up to Him.

 

[Pythons]

‘Practice buggery’? Hmmm. Interesting turn of phrase.

I’m going out on a limb to say that I don’t believe it is really up to you whom Christ loves and considers part of his Body. Perhaps best left up to Him.

I never implied God loved some less than others…
…But it’s a common red herring I can deal with for you.

God doesn’t consider the sin of homosexual sex acts different or worse than any other sin…
…All of us are guilty of “sin” and just because I don’t have attraction to a sin you or someone else has.
…Does not mean your sin is worse - then mine. We both need Jesus.

What I’m saying is that celebrating homosexual acts inside a “church”…
…Would be like celebrating stealing or Gossip inside a Church.

Say you really like to rip stuff off or maybe like “swinging”…
…But the Scriptures explicitly say stealing & adultery / fornication is SIN.
…A bunch of people come together who like stealing and fornicating & say they were “born that way”.
…So they form a Gospel Christian Church that welcomes and encourages stealing & fornication.

What I’m saying is that such a church’s Sacraments would be WORTHLESS…
…And only good for damnation - I’m sorry that this is offensive.
…It is what it is.

God doesn’t love a gay person ANY LESS than He loves the most devout person…
…All of us are in the same boat - we should help each other try not to sin.
…Not kid each other by saying sin isn’t sin.

That’s all I’m saying.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I never implied God loved some less than others…
…But it’s a common red herring I can deal with for you.

God doesn’t consider the sin of homosexual sex acts different or worse than any other sin…
…All of us are guilty of “sin” and just because I don’t have attraction to a sin you or someone else has.
…Does not mean your sin is worse - then mine. We both need Jesus.

What I’m saying is that celebrating homosexual acts inside a “church”…
…Would be like celebrating stealing or Gossip inside a Church.

Say you really like to rip stuff off or maybe like “swinging”…
…But the Scriptures explicitly say stealing & adultery / fornication is SIN.
…A bunch of people come together who like stealing and fornicating & say they were “born that way”.
…So they form a Gospel Christian Church that welcomes and encourages stealing & fornication.

What I’m saying is that such a church’s Sacraments would be WORTHLESS…
…And only good for damnation - I’m sorry that this is offensive.
…It is what it is.

God doesn’t love a gay person ANY LESS than He loves the most devout person…
…All of us are in the same boat - we should help each other try not to sin.
…Not kid each other by saying sin isn’t sin.

I come from a branch of the Christian Church that openly recognizes that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ are not only welcomed but included in all things. Their partners or their spouses are equally welcomed. Our priests, both men and women, are allowed be married, so we find now that since the legalization of gay marriage, our gay priests are either single or now married.

There are many branches of Christ’s body where this is the case.

No one is denying that the RCC has chosen to call such marriages a sin. But they are the new norm and if you and others in your church continue to refer to marital or otherwise sexual relations as ‘buggary’, you all have a bit of a problem on your hands. (Do see Archbishops Cupich, McElroy, and Bishop Lynch’s statements post Orlando. ‘I stand with you.’ Not one mention of sin or damnation.)

I trust the Holy Spirit and will happily receive the Sacrament from a gay priest. It is still Christ’s Body. I am quite certain that many Roman Catholics receive the Sacrament from just-as-gay priests in your own churches. Christ is still Christ.

So, bottom line for me is that we are in the Church together. I would rather focus on God’s love and care for each of us than on throwing Pharisaical stones.

 

[rcwitness]

I come from a branch of the Christian Church that openly recognizes that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ are not only welcomed but included in all things. Their partners or their spouses are equally welcomed. Our priests, both men and women, are allowed be married, so we find now that since the legalization of gay marriage, our gay priests are either single or now married.

There are many branches of Christ’s body where this is the case.

No one is denying that the RCC has chosen to call such marriages a sin. But they are the new norm and if you and others in your church continue to refer to marital or otherwise sexual relations as ‘buggary’, you all have a bit of a problem on your hands. (Do see Archbishops Cupich, McElroy, and Bishop Lynch’s statements post Orlando. ‘I stand with you.’ Not one mention of sin or damnation.)

I trust the Holy Spirit and will happily receive the Sacrament from a gay priest. It is still Christ’s Body. I am quite certain that many Roman Catholics receive the Sacrament from just-as-gay priests in your own churches. Christ is still Christ.

So, bottom line for me is that we are in the Church together. I would rather focus on God’s love and care for each of us than on throwing Pharisaical stones.

Why is this being touted in this thread?

Yes, there are many Christian Communities that are accepting homosexuality as an option for Christian couples. We do not live by Relativism. Nor do we call evil good. It is not loving to condone sin in a brother. A dying virtue in the Christian world is the practice of Admonishing the Sinner! It is one of the seven spiritual works of mercy. To love a brother walking in homosexuality without repentance, remorse, or a desire for reconciliation is a call to suffer with Christ in His love and witness on their behalf, with prayer and petitions.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Why is this being touted in this thread?

Yes, there are many Christian Communities that are accepting homosexuality as an option for Christian couples. We do not live by Relativism. Nor do we call evil good. It is not loving to condone sin in a brother. A dying virtue in the Christian world is the practice of Admonishing the Sinner! It is one of the seven spiritual works of mercy. To love a brother walking in homosexuality without repentance, remorse, or a desire for reconciliation is a call to suffer with Christ in His love and witness on their behalf, with prayer and petitions.

Why is this conversation happening in this thread? Because of hell and how we understand that to be.

Many in the RCC are calling things evil that we in other branches of Christ’s body call loving and of God. So, obviously, hell plays a part in this.

I keep reading comments from Catholics that have come out since Orlando just a week ago. There isn’t a lot about sin and hell. Gratefully so. Perhaps the tide is changing…

“adly it is religion, including our own, which targets, mostly verbally, and also often breeds contempt for gays, lesbians and transgender people. Attacks today on LGBT men and women often plant the seed of contempt, then hatred, which can ultimately lead to violence. Those women and men who were mowed down early yesterday morning were all made in the image and likeness of God. We teach that. We should believe that. We must stand for that.

and

“This is revelatory. It reveals how the LGBT community is invisible to much of church. Even in death they are invisible. For too long Catholics have treated the LGBT community as ‘other.’ But for the Christian there is no ‘other.’ There is no ‘them.’ There is only ‘us.’

This is a moment to end this ‘us’ and ‘them.’ For there is no ‘them’ in the church, because for Jesus there was no ‘them.’ He consistently reaches out to those on the margins, bringing all people in. Those who are invisible to the community are seen by Jesus. By seeing them, by welcoming them, by loving them, he makes the ‘them’ an ‘us.’

Catholics are invited to make every person feel valuable and visible, especially at times of loss. Jesus asks us to do this. The church needs to stand in solidarity with all of ‘us’ in Orlando.”

 

[rcwitness]

Why is this conversation happening in this thread? Because of hell and how we understand that to be.

Many in the RCC are calling things evil that we in other branches of Christ’s body call loving and of God. So, obviously, hell plays a part in this.

I keep reading comments from Catholics that have come out since Orlando just a week ago. There isn’t a lot about sin and hell. Gratefully so. Perhaps the tide is changing…

and

What is your point?

The Church does not encourage contempt for a sinner. But to reject sinful behavior. Orlando should not be about “gays”… that was the murderer’s ajenda. They are people who were unjustly massacred!

Are you trying to justify homosexual behavior and lifestyles because homosexuals are treated wrongly?

 

[Pythons]

I come from a branch of the Christian Church that openly recognizes that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ are not only welcomed but included in all things.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Catholic Church “openly recognizes” gays and lesbians…
…And with open arms welcomes them into the Church - they are indeed equal members in the body of Christ.
…The Catholic Church however does not encourage them to “live the lifestyle”.
…Because it’s simply SIN.

No different than stealing, lying or any other “sin”.

SanFran:

Their partners or their spouses are equally welcomed. Our priests, both men and women, are allowed be married, so we find now that since the legalization of gay marriage, our gay priests are either single or now married.

Why? Why does it matter? Seriously at that point what’s the point?

SanFran:

There are many branches of Christ’s body where this is the case.

It’s not the body of Christ.

SanFran:

No one is denying that the RCC has chosen to call such marriages a sin. But they are the new norm and if you and others in your church continue to refer to marital or otherwise sexual relations as ‘buggary’, you all have a bit of a problem on your hands. (Do see Archbishops Cupich, McElroy, and Bishop Lynch’s statements post Orlando. ‘I stand with you.’ Not one mention of sin or damnation.)

I’ll gladly accept “the problems” that come with telling it like it is…
…It was horrible and tragic what happened to those people.
…I fully support an individuals right to live life like they want to.

This has nothing to do with that ( Orlando ) & I know of no Christian who would gloat about a bunch of innocent people being killed.

SanFran:

I trust the Holy Spirit and will happily receive the Sacrament from a gay priest. It is still Christ’s Body. I am quite certain that many Roman Catholics receive the Sacrament from just-as-gay priests in your own churches. Christ is still Christ.

Again, a red herring - it’s the power of God working through the Priest combined with the sincere and contrite heart of the recipient of the Grace…
…That provides the real power of the Sacrament.

You can have a real Toad of a Priest serve valid Sacraments if the Priest came by way of real orders…
…And I’m thinking that openly gay Priests who celebrate sin and encourage others to participate in it.
…Are about as valid as if I started ordaining anyone off the street for the Priesthood after a 3 minute interview.

Having a person continuing in mortal sin gulping down wine or grape juice is just that - it’s only wine or grape juice at best…
…At the worst it’s gulping down DAMNATION.

SanFran:

So, bottom line for me is that we are in the Church together. I would rather focus on God’s love and care for each of us than on throwing Pharisaical stones.

Look, Jesus loves homosexuals just as much as anyone - we all here know that…
…Had Jesus stumbled onto a man having sex with a prostitute He wouldn’t have pushed the prostitute into man harder!
…This is the theology you are hyping here - it’s simply not right - everyone knows it.

And yes I agree that God is the ultimate judge but that doesn’t mean a person is justified to throw out their pet sins from the sin category.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

What is your point?

The Church does not encourage contempt for a sinner. But to reject sinful behavior. Orlando should not be about “gays”… that was the murderer’s ajenda. They are people who were unjustly massacred!

Are you trying to justify homosexual behavior and lifestyles because homosexuals are treated wrongly?

Perhaps one of my points is that some people in the church (the RCC) are taking a very different stance since Orlando, and calling for a stop to talk about how horrible gays are, including (in my opinion) words thrown at them such as sin, sodomites, deviants, and ‘love the sinner, hate the sin.’

We now hear that gay men and women are made in the image of God. Period. And what I understand from that is that if you want support them, you have to recognize that they have lives that involve sex and even marriage. It’s part of who they are.

By the rest of the Church saying ‘I stand with you’ and ‘you are part of us’, it means that they are no longer ‘them’ and people to demonize and send to hell.

What happens when you put all that aside and welcome men and women in your parishes and homes to be a part of your Catholic life? Will you love them and stand with them when yet another hate crime happens to one of their own? That is what your Bishops are asking of you. What would that be like for you?

 

[Reuben_J]

Perhaps one of my points is that some people in the church (the RCC) are taking a very different stance since Orlando, and calling for a stop to talk about how horrible gays are, including (in my opinion) words thrown at them such as sin, sodomites, deviants, and ‘love the sinner, hate the sin.’

By the rest of the Church saying ‘I stand with you’ and ‘you are part of us’, it means that they are no longer ‘them’ and people to demonize and send to hell.

What happens when you put all that aside and welcome men and women in your parishes and homes to be a part of your Catholic life? Will you love them and stand with them when yet another hate crime happens to one of their own? That is what your Bishops are asking of you. What would that be like for you?

You are entitled to your belief but when you mentioned RCC (Catholic Church) I have to interject here.

There is no change in the stance towards homosexuality from the Catholic Church, Orlando or not.

Homosexual sex is a sin, period. If you are homosexual and practicing homosexual sex, you are committing sin, period. And as usual, the price of sin is death (eternal damnation).

Thus ‘practicing homosexual’ is living a sinful life and there is no exception whether the person is a priest or lay.

We now hear that gay men and women are made in the image of God. Period. And what I understand from that is that if you want support them, you have to recognize that they have lives that involve sex and even marriage. It’s part of who they are.

Well, don’t ride on that too far and wrongly. We are made in the image of God but not in His likeness. We are not perfect, which God is, we sin. Sin is never an acceptable characteristic of that image and it is not its part.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I was referring to the statement of one of your Bishops (Lynch), as he spoke of the gay men and women in Orlando. His words, not mine.

“Those women and men who were mowed down early yesterday morning were all made in the image and likeness of God. We teach that. We should believe that. We must stand for that.”

Here is the citation: bishopsblog.dosp.org/?p=6644

 

[Reuben_J]

I was referring to the statement of one of your Bishops (Lynch), as he spoke of the gay men and women in Orlando. His words, not mine.

“Those women and men who were mowed down early yesterday morning were all made in the image and likeness of God. We teach that. We should believe that. We must stand for that.”

Here is the citation: bishopsblog.dosp.org/?p=6644

I will not argue with you on what the Bishop said. Regardless on his definition of the ‘image of God’, that can be argued on, but Catholic’s teaching on homosexuality is as clear as night and day. There is no wriggling point on it. It does not condone homosexual sex act.

If being made in the image of God to include all human’s tendencies and inclinations, then it is indeed very convenient. And of course wrong. If I have this natural fondness for stealing, say a habitual thief, I just cannot help it when going to a departmental store but the urge is so strong that I just have to steal, it does not mean that I can steal. If I do, I would be committing sin.

Homosexuality is a deviance to approved sex which should be between a man and a woman, perhaps a reason the first humans were created as such.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I will not argue with you on what the Bishop said. Regardless on his definition of the ‘image of God’, that can be argued on, but Catholic’s teaching on homosexuality is as clear as night and day. There is no wriggling point on it. It does not condone homosexual sex act.

If being made in the image of God to include all human’s tendencies and inclinations, then it is indeed very convenient. And of course wrong. If I have this natural fondness for stealing, say a habitual thief, I just cannot help it when going to a departmental store but the urge is so strong that I just have to steal, it does not mean that I can steal. If I do, I would be committing sin.

Homosexuality is a deviance to approved sex which should be between a man and a woman, perhaps a reason the first humans were created as such.

And as Brothers and Sisters in the Body of Christ, we must learn to recognize that we understand this - and sin and hell and all that goes with it - in very different ways.

I cannot believe it is either/or; it must be a both/and. BECAUSE of who Christ is for all of us.

 

[kdbueno]

If there is no hell, then there is supposed to be an eternal rebellion.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just want to clarify my earlier post about being ‘made in the image of God’.

It is true that man has been created “in the image and likeness” of the Creator but it has been so disfigured after the fall; we do not have that likeness of God anymore. Salvation by Christ is to restore us into the original divine image (when we would be free of sin and be forgiven).

Refer CCC #1701 and #1707

*1701 "Christ, . . . in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, makes man fully manifest to himself and brings to light his exalted vocation."2 It is in Christ, "the image of the invisible God,"3 that man has been created “in the image and likeness” of the Creator. It is in Christ, Redeemer and Savior, that the divine image, disfigured in man by the first sin, has been restored to its original beauty and ennobled by the grace of God.4

1707 "Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:

Man is divided in himself. As a result, the whole life of men, both individual and social, shows itself to be a struggle, and a dramatic one, between good and evil, between light and darkness.11*

 

[Pythons]

Each of us has our own sins we are especially drawn to & the last thing we want to do is justify those sins as acceptable to God…
…Just because we like wallowing in whatever sin more than we want to serve God.
…Being gay isn’t a sin but celebrating buggery & encouraging others to participate in it is.

Any Church that ordains openly gay people who “live the gay lifestyle” is outside the Body of Christ…
…It isn’t Christian under the definition at all - It might as well be a chapter of the Eagles or Elks or whatever.
…Granted, people might feel comfortable at a Church like that but at the end of the day it isn’t a church at all.
…It’s simply a secular organization preaching a different gospel than the one once handed down.

 

[Reuben_J]

And as Brothers and Sisters in the Body of Christ, we must learn to recognize that we understand this - and sin and hell and all that goes with it - in very different ways.

I cannot believe it is either/or; it must be a both/and. BECAUSE of who Christ is for all of us.

Sorry I do not comprehend. …

I would like to emphasis on this:

• There is no compromise on sin simply because God does not. A sin is a sin, an antithesis to God.
• Our human weakness (homosexuality, fornication, thievery, murderous anger etc) is not an exception for us to commit sin though it can be a mitigation factor.
• Yes, we would treat a person who sins with compassion and feel sorry for him/her. That is what love is all about.

-But we should not condone sin especially knowing it is a sin. We should not even try to justify it so that it becomes not a sin anymore.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Each of us has our own sins we are especially drawn to & the last thing we want to do is justify those sins as acceptable to God…
…Just because we like wallowing in whatever sin more than we want to serve God.
…Being gay isn’t a sin but celebrating buggery & encouraging others to participate in it is.

Any Church that ordains openly gay people who “live the gay lifestyle” is outside the Body of Christ…
…It isn’t Christian under the definition at all - It might as well be a chapter of the Eagles or Elks or whatever.
…Granted, people might feel comfortable at a Church like that but at the end of the day it isn’t a church at all.
…It’s simply a secular organization preaching a different gospel than the one once handed down.

Yes, I believe you have mentioned these things before.

So you are saying the Episcopal Church in the US, and other Anglicans across the world, the Presbyterians, the Evangelical Lutherans, the Unitarians, the UCCs, the Metropolitan Community Church, the Old Catholics, the Celtic Catholics, the United Church of Canada, the Uniting Church of Australia, the Swedenborgians, the Church of Sweden, and on and on throughout the world.

Are you really and truly saying that these Branches of the Church are not really part of the Church at all? That these millions of devout followers of Christ are not Christian?

That cannot be what you mean.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Yes, I believe you have mentioned these things before.

So you are saying the Episcopal Church in the US, and other Anglicans across the world, the Presbyterians, the Evangelical Lutherans, the Unitarians, the UCCs, the Metropolitan Community Church, the Old Catholics, the Celtic Catholics, the United Church of Canada, the Uniting Church of Australia, the Swedenborgians, the Church of Sweden, and on and on throughout the world.

Are you really and truly saying that these Branches of the Church are not really part of the Church at all? That these millions of devout followers of Christ are not Christian?

That cannot be what you mean.

A Catholic who would assert that these groups are, in fact, not part of the mystical Body of Christ would be in dissent from papal teaching. On October 31, Pope Francis is making an apostolic visit to Sweden in order to open our year long joint commemoration with the Lutherans of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation…precisely with the Church of Sweden and its archbishop. The service of common prayer will be co-presided by the Pope and by Bishop Younan, President of the Lutheran World Federation.