Protestants one-upping us on the personal relationship with God?

[Lief_Erikson]

There are a whole lot of teachings about the personal relationship with God in Catholicism, teachings that go back to the origin of the Church. The stories of the mystics and saints are glorious hallmarks of Catholicism, and the personal relationship with God has been experienced by countless Catholics throughout history. Entering Catholicism from Protestantism has been one of the most enriching experiences of my life.

Yet as I meet more and more Catholics, I find that many (certainly not all, but a great many) don’t seek to hear God’s voice speaking to them. Often, they repeat some memorized prayers without thinking much about them and go to Mass and that’s about all their religious lives are. They often know about God intellectually, as an abstract belief, but not as a personal lover they can hear and find joy in talking to.

I’m not criticizing them, for often they don’t even know what they’re missing or how available it is. But this absence of the personal relationship is what I’ve seen cause some Catholics to turn away and lose their faith.

I grew up in a Protestant household, and we were taught the personal relationship with God, which involves not only praying to him but experiencing and hearing his responses. I find that Protestants often are taught that, though I think this certainly depends what denomination one is in. But this is a common part of Protestantism, perhaps because the Holy Spirit is relied on so much to interpret scripture, rather than the teaching of the Church. It should be both, not either/or. But the God my family introduced me and my siblings to is the God who led me to Catholicism, a choice I am overjoyed that I made. Protestantism got its spiritual relationship teaching from Catholicism, and the fullness, I have found, is in Catholicism. However, it seems to me that Protestants often develop deeper spiritual relationships with God than Catholics do.

I feel as though Protestants are outdoing us to some extent in this focus on personal, spiritual intimacy with God, because so often Catholics don’t learn about this. Is there anything we can do to remedy this gap?

 

[Trishie]

Dear Lief, that may be so but I know I’m not alone in a very personal relationship with God. I wonder if the environment of your questioning has much to do with others’ responses to you. I see your very effectively made point. It happens that while I know some who would fit generally into your research, I also know many who do not. I am Catholic, but many of my written prayers are very personal e.g
For love of Jesus
Jesus, the truths and mysteries of Your kingdom are vastly beyond me, as I lean against Your breast where beats Your loving, pierced heart. Although You are eternally throned with Father and Holy Spirit, I pray for You as if You still walked the earth. I am encouraged to do so, because You prayed long and often to the Father as You lived amongst human creatures as brother. Time is no barrier for God; therefore, my prayer enters the moment of Your need.

Jesus, like Your dear friend Peter, I can betray You and Your love, yet amid my flaws and selfishness, the yearning tenderness of my heart pleads before the Father for You.

I pray for the perfection of love and joy in Your unfailing obedience. I pray for Your wisdom and peace, for Your humility and trust, for Your purity and freedom of spirit. I plead for Your faith, strength and sweetness in weariness and disappointment; for Your endurance before others’ blindness and unbelief; and for Your comfort in loneliness and frustration.

I pray for the integrity and fulfilment of Your ministry and witness. I pray for Your faithfulness to Your father’s will in youthful obscurity and in public ministry. I pray for Your courage in the torment of Gethsemane and its terrible aftermath. I pray for divine and human support in Your burdened, bruised weakness on Calvary’s path, and for alleviation of Your anguish in those last terrible hours.

Contemplating Your lonely suffering for people still proud, stubborn insensitive, and worldly, I pray for our reciprocal generosity of faith, endurance, and love. I pray for our gratitude towards Your gifts of reconciliation and healing. I ask for our appreciation and communion in the highest gift of Creation, that only acceptable offering, of You in Eucharistic sacrifice.
I desire to deliver myself unreservedly in offering with You, as I listen to Your heart within my heart—knowing that though King of kings, you lived and died for me, to make me child of your own Father. Awed at such unfathomable love I pray on concerning Your earthly life…

For Your secret depths of pain, I gaze into Your eyes. Although we both know that I cannot comprehend the grief of redeeming-God-made-man, there is healing in the sincere caring of one who loves You.

For Your heartache and tears, I gently touch Your cheek, which at the end is horribly disfigured and bruised—and contritely offer my own repentance and sorrow. For each convulsion of agony, I tenderly hold You near—and reach for my own cross.
For times You need to be restored, against my heart I cradle Your head, which had no pillow of rest upon, earth—only the thorned piercing of humankind’s unholy thoughts (and my own). Therefore, I pray to serve Your will wholeheartedly and faithfully.

For Your times of discouragement, rejection and loneliness, I put my arms around You—and invite You to claim my being to remould in holy unity with Yourself.
For the lashes of our sinful acts, I ask of the Father, healing oil in my prayer, penance, obedience and charity. Above all, I offer the ointment of my frail love for You, to salve Your wounds.
For times that Your message is ignored or misunderstood, I kiss You softly, and listen as carefully as my sinfulness and limited comprehension allows.
For the harsh and false, blasphemous and reviling thoughts, words and acts directed against You in life and for all time—I speak love and praise, and to others proclaim Your gospel by word and deed.

Compassionately, I behold Your human limitations, along with Your natural human sorrow before the restrictions imposed upon Your action in others’ souls by their free will. I behold the painful helplessness of Your Mother during Your public life and in the seeming disgrace and failure of Your death. For these, I lovingly pray that the kingdom of God will reign with love and power and glory in each person.

Knowing that Your suffering continues in all who take up their cross to follow You, I pray imploringly for each as I do for You. I pray for each suffering soul, for every Christian, for every believer of all faiths, for my loved ones and those whom I ought to love. I pray for Your priests, through whom Your Eucharistic offering is renewed in all ages. I pray for overflowing grace for Your continuing apostolate in apostles consecrated into priesthood with You.

 

[brockmac]

In my opinion, there is a problem with the Protestant concept of a “personal relationship with Jesus.” The biggest problem is that they focus so much on this “personal relationship” that they forget about the communal relationship we are called to have through the Church that He established. It also appears to me that they view “church” as basically a cheerleading rally to affirm their “personal faith.” Where as Catholics view the Mass as an act of worship that is focused on God, not on themselves, or at least they should.

This focus on a “personal relationship” is inevitable once you throw out the idea of a single visible universal Church established by Christ to stand firm through the ages and replace it with an endless array of “churches” who are all correct, though they dissagree on everything. If there is not a single Church that can be trusted to teach the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you are left to yourself, your understanding of the Sacred Scriptures, and your “personal relationship with Jesus.”

And once you throw out the universal Church, you also dismiss the idea of episcopal lineage, which means that there is no real succession of bishops and elders (priests), so no one can truely effect the Eucharistic miracle, so the Eucharist must be only symbolic. Once again, Protestants find themselves lacking in this most personal and intimate Communion with our Lord, and so focus all the more on their spiritual “personal relationship.”

For the well formed Catholic, the personal relationship with God is based on their relationship with His Church and nourished by her sacraments. What can be more personal than physically confessing your most embarassing and intimate sins, accepting God’s forgiveness and then physically receiving the True Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist?

 

[Trishie]

Some more thoughts…I am just an ordinary Catholic, a mother of three sons, grandmother of six, wife, housewife, no great achievements, just one Catholic woman. And if we ordinary Catholics fail in intimacy with God, dear Lief, much as I acknowlege and see where there is some reality in what you say…equally there are many minimal Protestants aren’t there not, who perhaps only attend church for marriages, funerals and baptisms, just as there are Catholics who are, sometimes necessarily due to commitments, just Sunday Mass Catholics. I have a very personal relationship though I’m nobody much, so how many others!..and if you study study the Prayer Intentions, do you not also see that intimacy there? Love, Trishie I could actually give you lots of instances, but another prayer from my heart though I usually just either be, or speak naturally and simply to God, as many Catholics do:

Jesus and ordinary life
Jesus, God and man, for most of Your life You lived amongst us in unobtrusive labour. Through Your witness, we are encouraged to value the mundane tasks and events that dominate our lives.

Let us not overlook the value and message of the silent gospel of Your years of ‘ordinary’ service, overshadowed as they are by the drama of those last three years. It is surely a powerful silent witness that You, God incarnate, spent thirty years apparently ‘marking time’ in ordinary activity…as helpless infant…as refugee…as child of a poor family…as village tradesman. Thus is the ordinary, unrecognised and unrecorded routine of our daily lives elevated and sanctified while yet in obscurity, when it is lived in accordance with divine will.

In response to Your quiet example and Your inspired Word, we desire grace to live and work lovingly amongst others, obeying Your will as expressed in our vocations and our individual natures. The brief account of Your infancy and childhood emphasises this lesson. Although at twelve You revealed Your unique nature, You returned to humble daily activity.

We observe Your favoured human Mother, in her option to reject or cooperate with divine will for her life. Her acceptance carried with it some treasured secrets, but largely the ordinary life of human motherhood and home duties commonplace in the lives of multitudes of women throughout the centuries. Surely, her faith and hope were frequently tested in remembrance of divine promise in the face of ‘ordinary’ realities. Ultimately, however, her choice led to mental and emotional martyrdom.

Jesus, along with every human, You faced the choice to employ or misuse, the life, the gifts, and the trust reposed in You. You could embrace or refuse the alluring, deceptive temptations of the devil—gaudy and dramatic with ambition, sensuality and worldliness. Rejecting these temptations, You remained faithful to the God’s will, despite hardship, disappointment and sorrow.

Following almost thirty years of humble obscurity, You began public ministry, openly teaching and exemplifying the truths of the eternal Father, and fulfilling the covenant. Even as You took up Your divine ministry, You remained loving, obedient, wise and trusting. You accepted the realities of Your humanity, not vicariously, but fully, sacrificing this humanity in the culmination of every human deprivation and suffering. Your entire being became ‘a living wound’. [Isaiah] Following annihilation in Your humanity, You resurrected, to consummate Your defeat of sin and death for humankind.

You are witness that each person must renounce self, accepting divine will in the realities and actualities of our personal existences as we follow You our Way to life. Jesus, grant us to shoulder our daily cross lovingly, cheerfully and creatively, regardless of how arduous or ineffectual our lives may seem to ourselves. Grant us to bear our cross with perseverance, hope and peace, so that You may use us to open heaven to others who live within our influence. Thank You, Jesus, key of our salvation!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Trishie, I definitely wasn’t thinking of you when I said that. In fact, I thought of you briefly during that post as one of the several counter-cases of my acquaintance. It has been apparent to me from the Prayer Intentions Forum that you have a deep personal relationship with the Lord. I have great admiration for your faith.

There are a number of Catholics, especially on this forum and the Prayer Intentions Forum (which people only go to if they care a lot about prayer life, which shows automatically a far higher degree of spiritual elevation than I was describing in my first post), who demonstrate the same deep love of God that you do, and this relationship exists for millions and millions of Catholics worldwide. People usually come to this forum, in fact, because they are concerned about “spirituality-” their mere presence shows how they care about the personal experience of God.

I definitely didn’t mean to say that proclaimed mystics or saints are the only ones in the Catholic Church who have such relationships with God. I am truly, deeply sorry I came across in such a terribly insulting way. I didn’t mean that. Ordinary and unrecognized Catholics are often the greatest saints, and there are vast numbers of them. I did not, I promise you, mean to blast the Catholic Church or all or most ordinary Catholics with my earlier statement.

I think it would help if I explained what I’m thinking about more specifically.

While I was a Protestant, I got to know . . . let’s see . . . two or three former Catholics, all of whom seem to have never experienced the personal relationship with Jesus, and two Catholics who didn’t seem to have this relationship and were extremely liberal, very accepting of sexual immorality or other perversions. I got to know one sincere Catholic who became my friend. He’s an apologist, but nothing he said ever indicated to me that he had ever had any personal experiences with Jesus. In fact, he showed doubts whenever I talked about personal experiences with Jesus. Like many Catholics I’ve met here who don’t seem to have had this experience, he seemed to assume it’s very rare and only meant for a select few God chooses.

My Catholic friend invited me to a Protestant-Catholic exchange website and while there, I encountered a large number of Catholics and some non-Trinitarian Protestants. All of them were butchering each other verbally, showing nothing but thin-skinned anger and vengefulness. There was no life of Christ there. I left.

When I began to consider the Catholic Church, I came to this website and I encountered some Catholics who did really know about the personal experience and relationship with Christ, who were committed to all of Christ’s teachings and to loving God with all their hearts, souls, minds and strength. I also encountered that in one of the priests at the Catholic Church I was Confirmed at. He is a stupendous role model to me. Yet he is one person, and I’ve found the “main” father at the Church seems accepting of sexual immorality and our Confirmation class teacher espoused many directly counter-Church teaching practices, including partial acceptance of sexual immorality, birth control techniques and Centering Prayer, which comes from Eastern mysticism. I questioned several of the people who were becoming Confirmed and none of them said they were doing it for deeper intimacy with God- all of them mentioned things like doing it to get married or because my sister’s doing it, or something else.

Whenever I enter the sanctuary of that church, I feel immersed in holiness and Christ’s presence. It is glorious and I’ve seen some loving believers there who have God’s Spirit. Yet in the only people I’ve really gotten to know there, aside from the one superb priest, there looks to me like there’s a gaping spiritual hole in a number of people’s lives.

And here in the Spirituality Forum, I’ve seen all these threads where people talk about their spiritual barrenness, about how their planning to leave the Catholic Church, and in the Apologetics forum I’ve been arguing for many days now with a former Catholic who is presently agnostic and left Catholicism because he ceased to believe in the personal relationship with God that he sought (apparently not long enough).

Just a few days ago, a very dear Catholic friend of mine who didn’t seem able to easily relate to me at all when I tried to tell her about some of my experiences with the Lord. I guess that’s a significant part of what led me to submit this thread, but it’s also just a product of a large part of what I and those around me have been experiencing.

Continuing in the next post . . .

 

[Lief_Erikson]

In my Protestant upbringing, my grandparents know the Lord, my uncles and cousins have personal experiences with the Lord, my siblings do, and I was brought up to have them as well. Our Protestant friends know about and accept them, and Christian conservatives generally (in my acquaintance) have them. Moving into Catholicism, I’ve found out just how much they lack, how much I lacked as a Protestant that the spiritual riches of Catholicism have filled. It is glorious. I’ve seen some Catholics here reveling in that joy as well. It’s just that so many that I’ve met don’t seem to. It distresses me.

It especially bothers me when I see some Catholics here argue that this kind of relationship is not something God wants for everyone, but only for a select few. I’ve heard a couple even suggesting, one here and another at that angry website I talked about a moment ago, that such a relationship is not even desirable. Though I know most don’t feel that way.

But it’s just disturbing and hurtful. And I know that vast numbers of people don’t feel that way, and some in my acquaintance are certainly among these. But it’s painful that so many that I’ve met DO (not all, for sure, but unfortunately apparently most) abstain from hearing Jesus personally and maintaining that personal love relationship.

On the other hand, the Protestants I know who lack so much of the intimacy with God that they could have in Eucharist, Confession, Mass, Marian devotion and the many other devotions and realms of wisdom and supernatural revelation the Catholic Church offers, seem to have pursued God and found him in their own lives in a way that a lot of Catholics have not.

That’s what I was talking about, the observation based purely on my own limited experience and circle of acquaintances. I don’t mean this as a criticism of anybody, including those lacking this intimacy, since often they aren’t even aware of how readily available it is.

The Protestants of my acquaintance seem to commonly have the same experience I’ve been having. Often, they cite the personal experience with God that they have and that most Protestants they know have, and then talk about the many former Catholics they’ve known who left the Church because that relationship wasn’t taught.

I guess that my main point of this thread is perhaps more of the clergy should be instructed to teach the value and availability of this relationship to their parishioners. It might combat the tide of people leaving the Church. I wonder if discussing this relationship more is something we (speaking of the Church in general) might do well to relearn from Protestants. The personal relationship with God is one of the deepest attractions of Protestantism because it is so much emphasized there. When I say “relearn from Protestants,” all I mean is take some of the emphasis they place on this experience and apply it ourselves more often in places where it isn’t discussed.

Oh, by the way, I completely agree with you, Trishie, about the enormous value of applying Christian principles in unobtrusive daily life. I certainly don’t mean to demean that in the least. I’m concerned about people who don’t seem to think about Christian principles in daily life, or about the relationship with God that makes him a personal lover rather than an abstract belief.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

In my opinion, there is a problem with the Protestant concept of a “personal relationship with Jesus.” The biggest problem is that they focus so much on this “personal relationship” that they forget about the communal relationship we are called to have through the Church that He established.

I agree that this is a severe problem, though I don’t think it’s the greatest. There are a handful of others that I find even more serious.

It also appears to me that they view “church” as basically a cheerleading rally to affirm their “personal faith.” Where as Catholics view the Mass as an act of worship that is focused on God, not on themselves, or at least they should.

Er . . . speaking as a former Protestant, I’d have to say I don’t think that’s a correct portrayal. Usually, whether the believers are jumping up and down or sitting still and silent on their pews, they are there for God, just as Catholics are.

This focus on a “personal relationship” is inevitable once you throw out the idea of a single visible universal Church established by Christ to stand firm through the ages and replace it with an endless array of “churches” who are all correct, though they dissagree on everything. If there is not a single Church that can be trusted to teach the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you are left to yourself, your understanding of the Sacred Scriptures, and your “personal relationship with Jesus.”

I agree with this most of the way. I think that the personal relationship with Jesus is largely emphasized in Protestantism because they’ve lost so much truth that the Church offered, and need to find out what it is all over again from Jesus (which often doesn’t work out right), but that’s not the way it should be for them or for Catholics. The Protestants should receive the truth Jesus gives them through the Catholic Church, rather than listening to Jesus more because they’re missing so much of that truth. The Catholics, on the other hand, shouldn’t take the Church’s revelation instead of personal intimacy with Jesus- they should take the Church’s revelation as well as that intimacy. And many do. But I’m saddened by the distressing number leaving the Church or living a barren life because of not having learned about that intimacy.

And once you throw out the universal Church, you also dismiss the idea of episcopal lineage, which means that there is no real succession of bishops and elders (priests), so no one can truely effect the Eucharistic miracle, so the Eucharist must be only symbolic.

Well, again, from my own experience as the former Protestant, the Eucharist is accepted in various ways depending on what denomination you’re at. For some, it’s merely symbolic. For others, it’s symbolic as well as a kind of container for God’s Spirit. For others, it’s the flesh and blood but not the Spirit. There’s a big jumble of different beliefs out there about the Eucharist, among Protestants. And while I was a Protestant, I did have some very lovely experiences with God’s Spirit while taking that Communion, because even though it isn’t what God intended the Eucharist to be, we still took it with an intent to worship and revere God, and he came to us where we were at.

Once again, Protestants find themselves lacking in this most personal and intimate Communion with our Lord, and so focus all the more on their spiritual “personal relationship.”

It’s true that the absence of the Eucharist creates an unacknowledged hunger in Protestants, but the Mass and Eucharist shouldn’t be a replacement of “personal relationship” for Catholics. Catholics should participate even more than Protestants in that personal relationship because of the richness they’ve received in the Eucharist. If we’ve tasted a glorious banquet, we want that delicious food again because we’ve had it once before, so we are catapulted into more intensity of spiritual relationship with Christ during the week up to the next Eucharist, getting all we can get. On the other hand, if you’ve never eaten anything super-tasty, you can’t imagine what that tastes like because you’ve never had it, so your desire is less. To him who has been given much, much more will be demanded, as Jesus once said.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

For the well formed Catholic, the personal relationship with God is based on their relationship with His Church and nourished by her sacraments. What can be more personal than physically confessing your most embarassing and intimate sins, accepting God’s forgiveness and then physically receiving the True Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist?

I agree with you completely. The Mass, Confession, the Eucharist, and the relationship with the Church provide some of the greatest spiritual experiences. However, there’s also all of our lives in between this Mass and the next Mass, and this Eucharist and the next Eucharist. That’s a lot of waiting. All that time should be charged with the experience of God . We don’t have to wait for the next Mass. We can have God all the time, and then let this week of experiencing God in all our day to day life climax at the next Eucharist, rather than wait for the next Eucharist.

Prayer that God will reveal himself to us more deeply and intimately will create that. We shouldn’t let the Eucharist, Confession and Mass replace the “personal relationship with God,” or be the only time when we have that personal relationship with God. That’s like being married to someone and then only spending any time with him or her for a two or three hours of one day of the week (two, on weeks where we go to Confession). God wants a lot more.

Paul instructs us in the Epistles to “pray unceasingly.” Prayer is speaking and being spoken to, hearing God and speaking to him. Which doesn’t mean our relationship with God is dead if we aren’t doing that, obviously, but husbands and wives enjoy one another most if they are able to spend a lot of time together. We, as the Bride of Christ, are called to spend a lot of time with our Divine Husband. All the time we can, every day, let us pray. I pray almost every day that God will reveal himself to me more completely and intimately. It opens the door to a rich wealth of spiritual experiences that aren’t reserved for the spiritual giants but are available to everyone. The more we develop that relationship as Paul instructs us to do, the more it will grow and the more blessed we will be, and the more we will love God and come to know his love for us. That just spills blessings all over our lives, as David said, “My cup overflows.”

 

[Trishie]

Dear Lief

“I definitely didn’t mean to say that proclaimed mystics or saints are the only ones in the Catholic Church who have such relationships with God. I am truly, deeply sorry I came across in such a terribly insulting way. I didn’t mean that. Ordinary and unrecognized Catholics are often the greatest saints, and there are vast numbers of them. I did not, I promise you, mean to blast the Catholic Church or all or most ordinary Catholics with my earlier statement.”

That was evident to me. It didn’t even occur to me to think anything regarding your post was insulting. You presented an intelligent, reasoned argument, and I recognised that immediately. Mostly I didn’t want you to feel that way. I wanted to balance the discussion with something I was able to from personal experience…didn’t want you to feel that kind of isolation or disappointment. I trawled though my journal of prayers written at various moments with what seemed to be insights over the years and pasted in a couple. I call my journal ‘a handful of wildflowers’ . I’ve never really known what to do with it except as personal prayer, encouragement and inspiration, but since discovering CAF, I occasionally paste one it comes to mind when writing a post, and sometimes I adapt them a little.

You weren’t insulting, just working from an intelligent, reflective and enquiring mind. I recognise your post as valuable insight…because unless we Catholics do creatively respond within our precious structures and allow the Spirit to give them light and life…with personal experience of God’s mercy and love and with authentic relation with God…we cannot grow spiritually and humanly to become who we really are as children of God. I understood that your reflection intended to rouse a deeper response in fellow Catholics. I’ve not always responded to your reflections but I respect your opinions and efforts.

I appreciate reading the posts that round out your perception and argument…and may God give us grace to respond more fully to Him in our lives.
Thank you for your kindly thoughts , Trishie

 

[Cathryn]

For me my relationship with Jesus is very intimate and Eucharistic. I try to receive Holy Communion every day and spend an hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament every day. I have a sacramental relationship with Christ because this is how he left Himself for us. When I am not near a Church, or at home alone, I pray or talk to Christ in the tabernacle where He resides at my local parish. His sacramental grace radiating from the tabernacle has no bounds by distance. Eucharistic Jesus is the Jesus I know and recognise. My relationship is in a way spousal and personal, yet all united in the Body of Christ with others. I also believe the Eucharist is the answer to every problem and wish everyone spent time with the living, breathing, heart of the Church in the Blessed Sacrament. I wish Protestants understood the difference between a spiritual relationship with Jesus, and a sacramental, Eucharistic relationship with Jesus.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Cathryn, that sounds truly wonderful. That’s what I want as many Catholics as possible to seek and experience.

You know, Cathryn and Trishie, what I’m trying to say is that we would all be richly blessed to earnestly pray for deeper intimacy with God on a regular basis, to pray to be able to experience God more fully and feel his love more personally. Those who do pray that frequently and truly desire it are richly blessed, if they persist, and no matter how far we get in this intimacy with God here on Earth, there are always greater and deeper experiences with God available and he wants us to have them. But many people don’t seek any experience of God between Masses, and don’t try to bring God into everday life throughout each week, day or hour. Also, for many believers, prayer is all about speaking to God and never about hearing him. That is NOT true for everyone- there are many believers who hear God frequently. I think that we would do well to talk about Paul’s teaching that we “pray continually,” and seek to participate in that, and we would do well to heed David’s Psalms in which he describes how he seeks God as a panting hart seeks a river to drink from, and through his language expresses his keen longing for deeper unity with God. Many people don’t feel that much longing, and just live their normal lives of which Mass is a part, rather than experiencing the Mass recreating all the days of their normal lives into experiences of God, and seeking God every day.

I’m just urging more seeking and praying, because that way we will experience the joy of more finding and receiving, and I’m urging we do this all of the time (like Paul urges with his incessant prayer teaching) rather than only on Sundays. I know that this message does not have anything to do with a number of the people here, and I’m not saying that there’s something terribly wrong with any of those it does apply to- it’s just that wherever we are in our relationships with God, there is always more to have, and we would do well to pray to God for more of it. Doing so will bless us greatly.

In the Protestant community I grew up in, we were taught this incessant prayer and seeking, and because we asked a great deal of God very frequently, he gladly gave us a great deal. I just wish I saw that prayer (involving hearing as well as speaking) and seeking taught more in Catholic communities for everyone all the time.

You weren’t insulting, just working from an intelligent, reflective and enquiring mind. I recognise your post as valuable insight…because unless we Catholics do creatively respond within our precious structures and allow the Spirit to give them light and life…with personal experience of God’s mercy and love and with authentic relation with God…we cannot grow spiritually and humanly to become who we really are as children of God. I understood that your reflection intended to rouse a deeper response in fellow Catholics. I’ve not always responded to your reflections but I respect your opinions and efforts.

Makes me wonder what other opinions I’ve expressed that you you disagree with .

Cathryn, I definitely agree with you about the stunning beauty of that sacramental relationship with Christ. My relationship with Christ too, since I became Catholic, has become centered on the Eucharist. To use a human analogy, I think the sacramental relationship involves having sex with our husband whereas the spiritual relationship Protestants have involves talking with God only, but denying him the sexual part of our relationship with Christ (And because of the doctrinal differences, that conversation can in many ways become long-distance conversation rather than face to face). This hurts him and damages us.

All I’m saying in this thread is that both are needed, the talking and the sex, and let’s have the talking all day long (as Paul teaches), back and forth, like any husband and wife’s relationship is (rather than all one way, us to God), and let’s seek more from God continually rather than ever growing content with what we have, for seeking produces growing. From your post, it sounds like you’re doing that, and I think many Catholics are. In my experience, there are just a lot of Catholics who also don’t, and they are missing out on a lot that I wanted to encourage them to enjoy. And I think we (generalizing here) could learn some things from the commitment of many Protestants to incessant prayer, seeking, hearing and experiencing.

 

[Cathryn]

Cathryn, I definitely agree with you about the stunning beauty of that sacramental relationship with Christ. My relationship with Christ too, since I became Catholic, has become centered on the Eucharist. To use a human analogy, I think the sacramental relationship involves having sex with our husband whereas the spiritual relationship Protestants have involves talking with God only, but denying him the sexual part of our relationship with Christ (And because of the doctrinal differences, that conversation can in many ways become long-distance conversation rather than face to face). This hurts him and damages us.

I agree about the two becoming one, in a way sexual experience.

All I’m saying in this thread is that both are needed, the talking and the sex, and let’s have the talking all day long (as Paul teaches), back and forth, like any husband and wife’s relationship is (rather than all one way, us to God), and let’s seek more from God continually rather than ever growing content with what we have, for seeking produces growing. From your post, it sounds like you’re doing that, and I think many Catholics are. In my experience, there are just a lot of Catholics who also don’t, and they are missing out on a lot that I wanted to encourage them to enjoy. And I think we (generalizing here) could learn some things from the commitment of many Protestants to incessant prayer, seeking, hearing and experiencing.

I agree with all you say. Partly because this type of relationship is so intimate, it isn’t real easy to talk about with others. It is almost like talking about your intimate relationship with your husband or wife. It is in a way very private, but we are called to share this with other people. Maybe we all just need to experience talking about it more, and get more comfortable with sharing it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There was a mindset in Catholic Culture where people thought of God as beyond their reach, dwelling somewhere out in the heavens, and a personal relationship was only for mystics, who Christ or Mary appeared to.

However, since the Charismatic movement came about and now that Catholics are learning more about contemplative prayer, we are understanding that faith is a relational aspect with God who dwells within us and that to be with Him, we merely need turn toward Him interiorly. God dwells within us, at the center of our being and as St. Teresa of Avila said, this is where He communicates most effectively with us.

Pope Benedict speaks about different forms of faith, one being and intellectual faith, which is based on knowledge and reason. The other, is the personal experience of Christ in our lives.
This form of faith must be shared in community, and is not meant to be kept between the individual and God. This we is what the Church is about, according to him.

In Christ Jesus
Jim

 

[Lief_Erikson]

However, since the Charismatic movement came about and now that Catholics are learning more about contemplative prayer, we are understanding that faith is a relational aspect with God who dwells within us and that to be with Him, we merely need turn toward Him interiorly. God dwells within us, at the center of our being and as St. Teresa of Avila said, this is where He communicates most effectively with us.

What you quoted her as saying in the other thread was that as you come to hear God more, you can come to sense his presence within you. I’ve experienced that from time to time, and it is a wonderful experience. She didn’t say that one should delve into . . . well, that’s another topic. I’ll try respond to your post in the other thread fairly soon.

Pope Benedict speaks about different forms of faith, one being and intellectual faith, which is based on knowledge and reason. The other, is the personal experience of Christ in our lives.
This form of faith must be shared in community, and is not meant to be kept between the individual and God. This we is what the Church is about, according to him.

I love that . That’s a wonderful insight of Pope Benedict. Thanks for bringing it up!

Cathryn:

I agree with all you say. Partly because this type of relationship is so intimate, it isn’t real easy to talk about with others. It is almost like talking about your intimate relationship with your husband or wife. It is in a way very private, but we are called to share this with other people. Maybe we all just need to experience talking about it more, and get more comfortable with sharing it.

Indeed. It took me years before I talked about some of my most personal experiences with Christ to people, and I still refrain a lot of the time. I’m trying to share. So many people have closed ears, though .

 

[dang71]

what I’m trying to say is that we would all be richly blessed to earnestly pray for deeper intimacy with God on a regular basis, to pray to be able to experience God more fully and feel his love more personally. Those who do pray that frequently and truly desire it are richly blessed, if they persist,

i have been reading this thread and have become extremely frustrated by what is being said. Not because what you have said is wrong, but because i have been trying (honestly i believe) to have these intimate experiences and personal relationships for years, but to no avail. i try to do all the right things, pray as much as possible, follow all the commandments (usually i fail, but at least i try), but God still always seems to keep me at arms length. truthfully, my faith has become nothing but frustration and disappointment, simply because i don’t experience the exact things discussed in this thread. the lack of this type of experience is exactly why almost all the people i know have left the Church, and Christianity in general. maybe those of you who have these wonderful relationships and experiences could teach the rest of us HOW to have them as well? also, maybe people are having these experiences, but just aren’t recognizing them as such (is this even possible?)? and how can someone know that the experience they are having is truly from God, and not the devil trying to lead one astray?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

i have been reading this thread and have become extremely frustrated by what is being said. Not because what you have said is wrong, but because i have been trying (honestly i believe) to have these intimate experiences and personal relationships for years, but to no avail. i try to do all the right things, pray as much as possible, follow all the commandments (usually i fail, but at least i try), but God still always seems to keep me at arms length. truthfully, my faith has become nothing but frustration and disappointment, simply because i don’t experience the exact things discussed in this thread. the lack of this type of experience is exactly why almost all the people i know have left the Church, and Christianity in general. maybe those of you who have these wonderful relationships and experiences could teach the rest of us HOW to have them as well?

I just now prayed, in response to your statement, “Lord, what is your word for this user at this moment?”

Then I put my finger down on the scripture twice, randomly, and the first paragraph is where my finger came down first, and the last line is where it came down second (I didn’t try it a third time). I am personally convinced these verses were from Christ, intended directly for you, because this is how he often speaks to me.

"Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

“The kingdom of heaven is near” (Matthew 11:28-30, 10:the-second-half-of-verse7).

Be at peace. God is with you, and he is within you.

I recommend praying Sirach 51:18-22 out loud, to yourself.

dang:

also, maybe people are having these experiences, but just aren’t recognizing them as such (is this even possible?)? and how can someone know that the experience they are having is truly from God, and not the devil trying to lead one astray?

Don’t worry about it. Just relax in whatever God gives you to feel right now.

 

[dang71]

I just now prayed, in response to your statement, “Lord, what is your word for this user at this moment?”

thank you so very much for your prayers, they are truly appreciated.

"Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

“The kingdom of heaven is near” (Matthew 11:28-30, 10:the-second-half-of-verse7).

Sirach 51:18-22

i will go to adoration tonight and think about these verses, thanks again…

Just relax …

not something that comes easy to me…

adding you to my prayers as well

 

[Trishie]

Lief, in answer to your comment! If I disagree I’ll let you know! Who says I was disagreeing! Just moderating, though I’m not in a position to make the comparison, you are! Every now and then I want to use an Aussie phrase. I have to change the words, which takes the fun out of it, because no one but an Australian would understand the phrase.

Dang, I do know what you mean. It’s difficult when we are overwhelmed by sadness or indecision. I think it’s true to say most of us struggle with the silence of God at times. God has been really quite generous to me a few times, one occasion in particular is how I don’t get to be an atheist once in a while.

The very fact that you persist in trying, is closeness to God. Maybe you don’t need to try so hard, just be in His presence. Lief covered that in the answering posts. Just be authentically who you are with God. If you need to vent to Him, vent, so long as we also make particular effort to thank God for the gift of our life and for the good things in our lives and in the lives of others.

Our God, we cannot endure prolonged or severe spiritual desolation without Your support. Even Jesus suffered doubt as we do when He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You abandoned Me?” We unite our doubt with His, for You look with silent pity and unspeakable love on Your Son who, though sinless, chose to suffer with us, drinking the cup of our unloving choices.

Give us strength to bear doubt when it comes, our God, so that with Jesus we can say, “Father, into Your hands I commend my spirit”, thus joining with Him to death of unbelief and sin—into freedom of rising with Him into the glory of the redeemed spirit.

Jesus, You say to me, “Take up your cross and follow Me!” “If you love me, keep my commandments.” I fix my eyes upon the bright scars of Your ransom for me. Why did You suffer so terribly for me who even now remain unconverted? Yet Your wounds, Your hands, Your heart and Your word are filled with promises that You desire to fulfil in me and in others.

I offer You my only coin—trust against all appearances, hope despite my heartache, and faith despite my sins and flaws. Mercifully accept this meagre offering and open Your treasure house of love to me and to those whom You wish to serve through me.

…Please Holy Spirit, cherish “Dang” in love, simple wisdom, and truth.

 

[mark_a]

Then I put my finger down on the scripture twice, randomly, and the first paragraph is where my finger came down first, and the last line is where it came down second (I didn’t try it a third time). I am personally convinced these verses were from Christ, intended directly for you, because this is how he often speaks to me.

Lief- What if you are wrong?

Is this type of thing your basis for your “personal relationship” with Jesus?

This is extremely presuptuous of you. A relationship with God is more about worship of God than pointing randomly at the word of God to prove God is working through you.

I suspect there may still be a little bit of the “Protestant superiority” that still needs to be purged from you.

Sorry to sound harsh, but your posts in this thread exude something that many Catholics find very dislikable about Protestantism.

 

[dang71]

A relationship with God is more about worship of God than pointing randomly at the word of God to prove God is working through you.

i have two thoughts about this:

1. scripture is the inspired Word of God, and God most certainly does talk to us through scripture. in light of this, randomly opening the Good Book for guidance seems reasonable.
2. the randomness of this practice opens the possibility for huge errors and uncertainty.

i think #2 above could easily be mitigated by having some known guidelines or bounding principles (i.e. sacred Tradition), as well as the knowledge that not every instance will reveal a perfect answer to a question (or an answer at all). my conclusion is that this is an appropriate practice, when coupled with the sacraments and prayer, as long as it is done with a good working knowledge of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I suspect there may still be a little bit of the “Protestant superiority” that still needs to be purged from you.

there is also such a thing as “Catholic Superiority”