Protestant's own 2nd Vatican Council

[Cat]

there can never be a protestant council

the whole basis of protestant faith is they don’t want to be told what to believe in. they have their own interpretations of the bible and each one believes they are guided by the Holy Spirit, thus they have the truth. a council is anti-protestant because it goes contrary to how each one of them is formed. if they can agree with another about matters of the faith, they wouldn’t have broken off in the first place. but thats how each sect is founded. they either don’t agree with at least one teaching in a certain sect, or they formulated their own beliefs, they run away with it. literally.

There have been and there will be Protestant “councils.”

Many of these convene because of a specific need; e.g., the need to rid the world of abortion or the need to send missionaries to unreached people groups.

The Summer Institute of Linguistics is a form of “Protestant council”, although people attend this who are interested in linguistics, not religion. But most people who attend are from various Protestant groups and they want to learn about human language. You see, there is a specific purpose in the “council.”

One of the problems with getting Protestants together is that there are still quite a few Protestant denominations that practice “separatism,” i.e., they will not mix with other Christians outside of their denomination because they don’t want to expose themselves to false teachers and teachings, and also, they feel that joining such groups is to endorse doctrine that they reject. If you’ve read David Currie’s excellent books about his conversion to Catholicism, you’ll read about “separatist” churches. To these people, “ecumenism” is of the devil, literally.

 

[graceandglory]

Got a link, Mark? I’d love to see that. Let’s see, “Pope” Kenneth Copeland. :bigyikes:

EDIT: No, wait!! In honor of upstate SC, “Pope” Bob Jones.
Jon

For me it was Pope James Dobson.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Hello

Lately I have been thinking about our Protestant brother and sisters, as many of you know they are many denominations within Protestanism and from each branch of the denomination they are further smaller branches. If history repeats itself Protestanism will look more like a Oak tree versus a Palm tree, many would argue we are at that point already. Does any one think that its is possible that all the Protestant churches come together for a serious council, ala 2nd Vatican, to discuss the doctrine, theology, church structure, leadership etc etc. In this council they would basically say this splintering has to stop and they come to an agreement which gives Protestantism a united, stable, strong and from their point of view theologically sound front. Perhaps even amalgamate many of the denominations. I’m Catholic but have a history in the Protestant church and I don’t believe all their scattering of beliefs, people, demoninations etc does anyone any good, Protestant or Catholic.

Any ideas

Hmm…interesting.

But from what I have God has at least seemed to be doing from my fallible observations is creating Christian Unity “bottoms up”.

It happens on an individual level when Christians of various backgrounds realize that other Christians not like themselves also have the Holy Spirit and the presence of Jesus Christ and when these Christians can enjoy the fellowship of other Christians not like themselves. I hope that happens here to some extent.

It happens on a community level when various local churches cooperate on community needs like feeding the hungry and giving shelter to the homeless…you know the stuff Jesus told us that when we did to the least of them we did to him.

It happens on an inter church level when churches on a national and global scale cooperate on large outreaches (a couple of those have been mentioned in this thread).

This is what I have observed God doing in my lifetime. When I was a young 'un it did seem that Christians were much more separated from each other than now.

Now maybe God will culminate this with some type of formal unity. Then again maybe not. I don’t see it in my lifetime to be honest, but then again maybe I am making God too small. Anyway, we are not at the end of the age and I would not want to speculate on what God may or may not be doing in the future. But this is what I can observe God is doing now.

 

[AmateurPianist]

As a Lutheran, it is easier to see us dialogue with other sacramental Churches, such as Anglicans (and Catholics, frankly), than those communions that reject the sacraments. This is also apparent in the dialogues between OCA (Orthodox Church in American) and ACNA (Anglican Church in North America).

Funny thing but I have always felt closer to Catholics based on our (mostly) common moral theology than with say liberal Protestants. But I must be an odd duck here.

 

[JonNC]

Funny thing but I have always felt closer to Catholics based on our (mostly) common moral theology than with say liberal Protestants. But I must be an odd duck here.

I don’t think its odd at all. I was expressing my view based on what I consider most important, and you are, too. While moral teachings are important to me, my guess is that, like me, most Lutherans, liberal or confessional, place high value on the sacraments as means of grace.
Moral theology is important to both of us, but I couldn’t see corporate unity between us without basic agreement on word and sacrament. IOW, I would be more comfortable as a Catholic or Orthodox with 7 sacraments, than with any Protestant group that rejects sacraments of any kind.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree. Coming from the other direction as yourself, Jon, the only other denominations I could EVER join other than Catholicism are Anglicans (not Episcopalians) or Lutherans (preferably LCMS or WELS) for the same reasons as you suggest.

Hope you’re enjoying your vacation!

I don’t think its odd at all. I was expressing my view based on what I consider most important, and you are, too. While moral teachings are important to me, my guess is that, like me, most Lutherans, liberal or confessional, place high value on the sacraments as means of grace.
Moral theology is important to both of us, but I couldn’t see corporate unity between us without basic agreement on word and sacrament. IOW, I would be more comfortable as a Catholic or Orthodox with 7 sacraments, than with any Protestant group that rejects sacraments of any kind.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Tim Lincecumism
You know the favorite song in Philly is the old BeeGees song: Holliday:
Ooh, its a Halliday.

=gurneyhalleck1;6851440]I agree. Coming from the other direction as yourself, Jon, the only other denominations I could EVER join other than Catholicism are Anglicans (not Episcopalians) or Lutherans (preferably LCMS or WELS) for the same reasons as you suggest.

That’s true, yet I can see a unity of purpose, of sorts, with AmateurPianist regarding morals. Unity doesn’t have to be, and shouldn’t be an all-or-nothing. The closer to full communion we are, the better, but the Holy Spirit can use us to His purpose short of that.

Hope you’re enjoying your vacation!

I am, indeed. Don’t know if I told you already, but I’m moving to fifth grade this year.
Looking forward to that.
We’re reverting back to self-contained from blocking. Not looking forward to that.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I loved teaching fifth. The only thing better is sixth I’ve been told I’m a sick sucker for liking sixth; it’s a disease LOL

Blocking and self-contained? Do you mean different teachers would team teach?

My Giants are tied with those blue bums and I hope St. Louis teaches the Dodgers a lesson today. I want to see us sweep the Mets. Two games in a row the Giants have shut 'em out. 18 scoreless innings! We’re on a roll FINALLY

Tim Lincecumism
You know the favorite song in Philly is the old BeeGees song: Holliday:
Ooh, its a Halliday.

That’s true, yet I can see a unity of purpose, of sorts, with AmateurPianist regarding morals. Unity doesn’t have to be, and shouldn’t be an all-or-nothing. The closer to full communion we are, the better, but the Holy Spirit can use us to His purpose short of that.

I am, indeed. Don’t know if I told you already, but I’m moving to fifth grade this year.
Looking forward to that.
We’re reverting back to self-contained from blocking. Not looking forward to that.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I loved teaching fifth. The only thing better is sixth I’ve been told I’m a sick sucker for liking sixth; it’s a disease LOL

Blocking and self-contained? Do you mean different teachers would team teach?

Yes. Two of us taught 2 blocks each of Math and Science each, while 2 others taught Reading/Lang arts and Social studies.

My Giants are tied with those blue bums and I hope St. Louis teaches the Dodgers a lesson today. **I want to see us sweep the Mets. **Two games in a row the Giants have shut 'em out. 18 scoreless innings! We’re on a roll FINALLY

Me too. Go Giants, beat the Muts!!

Jon

Apologies to the OP.
Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My co-teacher and I have been mulling and discussing the idea of team-teaching for a while now. But man when it comes to grading, the politics with dealing with double the kids, and having to depend on another teacher, I just stay put. I’m sure it has a heckuva lot of advantages. I’d like to just teach history and math all day LOL

Yes. Two of us taught 2 blocks each of Math and Science each, while 2 others taught Reading/Lang arts and Social studies.

Me too. Go Giants, beat the Muts!!

Jon

Apologies to the OP.
Jon

 

[waxwing]

The problem with Billy Graham and John R.W. Stott is that these dear men are very old and not in the best of health.

Even Chuck Colson (my hero) is getting on in years.

My feeling is that this will be the task of the younger Protestant leaders, men like Pastor John Ortberg.

I agree if this council were to be held today Graham and Stott are to old lead it, but I would think that whoever would lead it should be someone in the mold of these two older pillars of ‘modern day’ Protestantism. John Ortbergs name rings a bell but not much beyond that so don’t know much about him.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

John Stott, JI Packer, NT Wright, and Bishop John-David Schofield (I’m prejudiced…he’s the bishop here and a real hero to me!)

I agree if this council were to be held today Graham and Stott are to old lead it, but I would think that whoever would lead it should be someone in the mold of these two older pillars of ‘modern day’ Protestantism. John Ortbergs name rings a bell but not much beyond that so don’t know much about him.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I don’t think its odd at all. I was expressing my view based on what I consider most important, and you are, too. While moral teachings are important to me, my guess is that, like me, most Lutherans, liberal or confessional, place high value on the sacraments as means of grace.
Moral theology is important to both of us, but I couldn’t see corporate unity between us without basic agreement on word and sacrament. IOW, I would be more comfortable as a Catholic or Orthodox with 7 sacraments, than with any Protestant group that rejects sacraments of any kind.

Jon

I’m with Jon, I would definitely have my sacraments numbered 7 before I would have them numbered 0.

 

[brb3]

There might be some hope the Evangelicals could come together and unify … and thereafter our Pope could welcome them all back into the Cath. Church…

JP2 hoped this might be accomplished … and many Protestant Evangelicals loved/respected him, and would gladly have had him as their leader.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

There is no such thing as THE PROTESTANT CHURCH.

There are many different Protestant churches, and for many of them their theology varies widely, their views on the Bible vary widely, their views on Communion/Eucharist vary widely as do their beliefs on almost any other aspect of theology.

Different churches have had their own councils, and sometimes they have joined together, forming a new church. But every time that happens, some of their congregations leave and form yet another new church.

Satan must enjoy this process. He keeps the arguments going, and the hatred. He helps to form distrust, and complete misunderstanding between the various “Christian” religions.

Look at the Anglican Communion as a perfect example of why the Protestant Churches can not come together. They are fracturing themselves, and they simply don’t care. One side forces through it’s version of what is “right”, even though it is specifically condemned in the Bible. Then, they wonder why the less “liberal” refuse to accept the changes and threaten to leave. To me, that whole process is Satan at work, and willing humans helping the process.

No, there will never be a single council that will include even a majority of the major Protestant religions. They simply can’t agree within their own churches, much less at a council to forge agreement among many.

 

[brb3]

Satan must enjoy this process. He keeps the arguments going, and the hatred. He helps to form distrust, and complete misunderstanding between the various “Christian” religions.

Look at the Anglican Communion as a perfect example of why the Protestant Churches can not come together. They are fracturing themselves, and they simply don’t care. One side forces through it’s version of what is “right”, even though it is specifically condemned in the Bible. Then, they wonder why the less “liberal” refuse to accept the changes and threaten to leave. To me, that whole process is Satan at work, and willing humans helping the process.

Yes! Protestants should ask themselves how the Spirit of God/Christ can be ‘divided against itself’. Even a young child could see the stupidity of Protestant Christian warfare.

 

[Contarini]

There might be some hope the Evangelicals could come together and unify

No, that’s just not how evangelicals do things. They are a highly decentralized lot and will never come together organizationally. Cat is right that they do come together for evangelism, and even to form a broad doctrinal consensus, but they generally aren’t interested in hierarchical unity. Those who are will unite to more hierarchical churches, usually as individuals. Occasionally they put together a “Catholicism/Orthodoxy from scratch’” denomination. The Evangelical Orthodox Church was one such–now part of the Antiochian Orthodox; the Charismatic Episcopal Church was another, and the parish of that denomination that existed in my town is now part of the Anglican Church in North America. But this is never going to be some kind of mass movement, in my opinion. For every evangelical who moves toward Catholicism or Orthodoxy, another one will start yet another round of “let’s get away from tradition and back to the simple gospel of Jesus.”

Edwin

 

[waxwing]

No, that’s just not how evangelicals do things. They are a highly decentralized lot and will never come together organizationally. Cat is right that they do come together for evangelism, and even to form a broad doctrinal consensus, but they generally aren’t interested in hierarchical unity. Those who are will unite to more hierarchical churches, usually as individuals. Occasionally they put together a “Catholicism/Orthodoxy from scratch’” denomination. The Evangelical Orthodox Church was one such–now part of the Antiochian Orthodox; the Charismatic Episcopal Church was another, and the parish of that denomination that existed in my town is now part of the Anglican Church in North America. But this is never going to be some kind of mass movement, in my opinion. For every evangelical who moves toward Catholicism or Orthodoxy, another one will start yet another round of “let’s get away from tradition and back to the simple gospel of Jesus.”

Edwin

The more I think of this unifying council and read all your posts the more discouraged I get with regards to a more united Protestanism. I am beginning to think that should such a council be brought to together with any hope for something resembling ‘success’ that its beginning and growth would need to be outside of North America and possibly Europe as well. In a society where the following things define it - the abilty to consume, the abilty to choose that tied in the with our idea of individualism and dare I say narcissism to a certain degree are ingrained obstacles which I’m not sure this Continent can overcome in order to achieve unity but not sacrfice essential truths.

 

[Contarini]

The more I think of this unifying council and read all your posts the more discouraged I get with regards to a more united Protestanism. I am beginning to think that should such a council be brought to together with any hope for something resembling ‘success’ that its beginning and growth would need to be outside of North America and possibly Europe as well.

Actually, I think the reverse is true. Interest in formal ecumenical ventures of this kind is largely a European/North American phenomenon, as far as I know. But I’d be happy to be shown wrong!

Edwin

 

[brb3]

No, that’s just not how evangelicals do things. They are a highly decentralized lot and will never come together organizationally. ///// this is never going to be some kind of mass movement, in my opinion.

Then don’t wait on them ! Make your own transition to the RCC. Don’t remain contrarian…do what Newman did.