Protestants: please stop using the label "Bible-believing"

[erikd]

As I said repeatedly… Modern churches and denominations are in that sense (and only in that sense) irrelevant. The only relevant church is the true Church of Jesus Christ which is comprised out of all those who take heed to His commands because He saved them and because He is the Lord over their lives. The true Church is the assembly of true believers and true followers of Jesus Christ who is our Saviour.

I do agree that there are still many lost people even in the fold of the Protestant churches.

Janet:

If the Church is an assembly of believers, than please answer these questions:

#1: Of the 700,000,000 worldwide non-Catholic Christians, how many (you can ballpark this number) different interpretations of the Bible exist? I.e. the rapture, real presence, Sabbath vs. the Lord’s day, etc.

#2: If all Bible believing Christians claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore interpreting Scripture correctly, how do you account for your answer in #1?

#3: If so many different variations of Christianity make up the Church, how do you account for the following Biblical passages?

15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, *the pillar and ground of the truth
*. 1 Timothy 3:15

If you answered with a number higher than 1 for question one, can you explain the last verse?

16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
St. Matthew 18:16-17

If you answered with a number higher than 1 for question one, how can the Church advise someone authoritatively in this situation, if it cannot agree?

*16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” *
St. Luke 10:16

If you answered with a number higher than 1 for question one, what are we to hear? Did Jesus teach us opposing viewpoints for certain issues? Or was Jesus authoritative?

I look forward to your response.

 

[Janet1983]

Do you not believe that the AoG church is Christian? Do you believe the Lutheran Church is Christian? Do you believe the Methodist Church is Christian? Do you believe that the Presbyterian Church is Christian? If you answered yes to any of these than you do not hold the same standard towards Protestant Churches as you do towards the Catholic Church since there are things within all of them that a southern Baptist is going to disagree with.

Just because someone is a member of one or the other church does not make him a Christian. Membership and the Lordship of Jesus Christ do not necessarily have to go in line.
I do however consider these churches Christian for the same reasons I consider the CC Christian… There are true Christians in them.
It does not mean that all are truly followers of Jesus Christ, but it means that there are some.

 

[Hisalone]

Man-made* and made-up-of are two different things. Christ founded a Church, there is no denying this whether you believe it is the Catholic Church or not. His Church is not man-made.
*
“I will build my church…”*

God bless you

Christ founded a church on Him He is the foundation.
Christs Church is Christ made founded on Christ.
Man made is founded on man and is not founded on Christ nor is it Christs Church

 

[Hisalone]

As I said repeatedly… Modern churches and denominations are in that sense (and only in that sense) irrelevant. The only relevant church is the true Church of Jesus Christ which is comprised out of all those who take heed to His commands because He saved them and because He is the Lord over their lives. The true Church is the assembly of true believers and true followers of Jesus Christ who is our Saviour.

I do agree that there are still many lost people even in the fold of the Protestant churches.

Amen

 

[Hisalone]

Amen and Amen. This has been a helpful thread.

Jesus did establish a church - both an invisible church of believers, but also a visible Church of authority, where disputes could/would be resolved led by the apostles who were given express authority to forgive sins (suggesting even believers must have their sins forgiven - e.g., justificaiton is an ongoing process) and to bind and loose.

That Church exists today in the Catholic Church. I believe that . . . now I will have to figure out how to deal with that.

In the meantime, even for those Christians who do not believe this, we must focus on unity in the body, love among all Christians (this was Jesus’ personal prayer and desire).

Blessings,

Brian

So you have bought into the lie?

Yes all believers must have their sins forgiven and must on a continuous basis go before God and have our sins cleansed by the blood. All beleivers have been given the ministry of reconcilaition not just clergy. We are to confess our sins one to another, do you see this in Catholic practice-----NO!!!
Christ established His church on Christ He is the Rock. All that confess that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God are His living visiable and invisable church. Even Augustine professed and taught this.
The only unity we will have is if we stay in Christ.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I consider the CC Christian

I am not sure why it took you so long to say it if this what is what you believe. Thanks for answering the question.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Christ founded a church on Him He is the foundation.
Christs Church is Christ made founded on Christ.
Man made is founded on man and is not founded on Christ nor is it Christs Church

I will reply to you only after you answer my question.

God bless

 

[Robbinson]

So you have bought into the lie?

Yes all believers must have their sins forgiven and must on a continuous basis go before God and have our sins cleansed by the blood. All beleivers have been given the ministry of reconcilaition not just clergy. We are to confess our sins one to another, do you see this in Catholic practice-----NO!!!
Christ established His church on Christ He is the Rock. All that confess that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God are His living visiable and invisable church. Even Augustine professed and taught this.
The only unity we will have is if we stay in Christ.

Hisalone - perhaps it was Luther who sold us the “lie”. To me, scripture and the earliest writings of Christians who were direct disciples of the apostles themselves, shows us there was (and is) a Church of authority preserved through apostolic succession. That Church has maintained remarkable unity of doctrine (explained only by the preservation of the Holy Spirit). It was Luther (have you read his writings?) who in a candidly, very tortured and schizophrenic way, changed the gospel and re-read texts of the scriptures in ways never read or taught before (and inconsistent, frankly, with itself).

Once that “lie” took hold, Satan had a grand time dividing the church in a twitsted downward spiral - the fruit of the reformation was not, as initially intended, a “return” to the true teachings of the scriptures and a unity in the body of Christ - the “fruit” is divisiveness, rightousness and condemnation between christians. That is disturbing.

In any event, I am finding Catholic doctrine to be scriptural, reverential and consistent with the earliest beliefs of christians. Most significantly to me, I believe in the power of the sacraments and in the “real presence” of the Eucharist - and that calls me to the Catholic Church.

I do believe we can be saved and have faith within or without the Church (the Catholic Church teaches us this too), but I have come to believe that the Catholic Church possess the fullest expression of our faith.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ok, Peter is established by the bible, for the sake of argument this is true. So, what is wrong with believing that?

Well can you tell me how they are Bible believing church and we have one bible and 38,000 non-cathloic church < why do we not have only ONE protestant church ONE church One Bible,WHATS WRONG HERE

 

[DOShea]

you can’t take this line of thinking too far, as the Catholic Church has not suggested that it has infallibly interpreted all verses of scripture - to the contrary, it has taken an infallible position on only a fraction of scripture. One might fairly say, however, that the Church has taken a view on “core doctrinal issues” and that you believe that to be the fullness of the truth based upon the doctrine of apostolic succession.

The nature of most controversies is about those core issues. Baptism - required or optional? Adult only or infant/adult? The point is you have many different groups looking at the exact same words and coming up with a different result. Lacking any formal, overarching authority to determine which is right/wrong, you have, in effect, a type of spiritual anarchy where any one’s interpretation is no less robust than the next.

If you work on the premise that the authors of the scriptural texts meant to convey ONE thing when they wrote what they did, it does not make logical sense that one author’s words should then have a multiplicity of meanings. The history of the Catholic church from the very beginning is one filled with the occasional group departing from the teaching norms (Gnostics, Monatists, etc.) and the rest of the Church, all united around a central meaning, exposed and condemned the heresies. All of these actions speak loudly to there being one single “set” of meanings to all of Scripture, and those meanings are to be found in the Traditions and Teaching authority of the Church.

As an earlier poster pointed out, there was no such thing as a “Bible-believing” Christian in the year 300 AD, unless that Christian was believing only in the Teachings and oral Traditions, and the uncodified (not yet canonical) writings in existence at that time, meaning his faith was based on hearing from those with authority to teach and interpret. That did not fall by the wayside simply because man discovered a way to mass-produce texts.

 

[Bill_Pick]

It can be gleaned from scripture that Peter may have in his life been held as the primary apostle. However, scriputre nowhere teaches he had a sucessor.

DD What did the Apostle do after the death of Judas,ITS CALLED Apostolic Succession, do you think Our Lord just put the Apostle on 24 day call, what was going to happen after all the apostle are dead the end of christiantly.

 

[brkn1]

DD What did the Apostle do after the death of Judas,ITS CALLED Apostolic Succession, do you think Our Lord just put the Apostle on 24 day call, what was going to happen after all the apostle are dead the end of christiantly.

I agree that there was a replacement of Judas by another bishop, as Scripture made prophecy of.
The Lord Jesus promised twelve thrones for the Apostles to judge the nation of Israel in the coming kingdom. An “Apostolic Succession” would require more than twelve thrones, if the final total of Apostles were more than twelve.
The number of names of Apostles over the four gates of the New Jerusalem is only twelve so “Apostolic Succession” is not indicated there either.

 

[Bill_Pick]

It can be gleaned from scripture that Peter may have in his life been held as the primary apostle. However, scriputre nowhere teaches he had a sucessor.

DD You keep talking about the Bible being God Breadled but you must not believe it,The door was lock and Our Lord breadthed on them and you still do not believe your Bible and you can,t get it ant clearer then this :::::
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20

Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained
Verse 22-23 said it all…RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND HE BREATHED ON THEM ,HE GAVE THEM THE POWER TO FORGIVE SIN

 

[greggy53]

So you have bought into the lie?

Yes all believers must have their sins forgiven and must on a continuous basis go before God and have our sins cleansed by the blood. All beleivers have been given the ministry of reconcilaition not just clergy. We are to confess our sins one to another, do you see this in Catholic practice-----NO!!!
Christ established His church on Christ He is the Rock. All that confess that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God are His living visiable and invisable church. Even Augustine professed and taught this.
The only unity we will have is if we stay in Christ.

We most certainly do confess our sins at every Mass, Just as the scriptures say. Jesus specifically gave the disciples the power to forgive sins…But as usual those that profess their own brand of Christianity ignore the scriptures they don’t like. Yes Christ established his Church, and made St Peter (the Rock) it’s leader and steward here on earth. These are the Keys to heaven that he gave St Peter. This is what the scripture says like it or not. Of Course St Augustine as part of the apostolic succession professed the truth. As did St Aquinas and hosts of other saints, and doctors of the Christian faith. Heresies like yours have never succeeded, never prevailed against their teachings and never will prevail against the bride of Christ, the Catholic Church. How convenient it is for those who decide to re-interpret scripture to fit whatever fancy they decide to follow. They are so smug in their rebellion against the lawful authority, the authority of those who Christ himself appointed to lead his Church here on earth. When you rebel against the Catholic Church you rebel against God. Christ and his Church are one.

 

[Bill_Pick]

We most certainly do confess our sins at every Mass, Just as the scriptures say. Jesus specifically gave the disciples the power to forgive sins…But as usual those that profess their own brand of Christianity ignore the scriptures they don’t like. Yes Christ established his Church, and made St Peter (the Rock) it’s leader and steward here on earth. These are the Keys to heaven that he gave St Peter. This is what the scripture says like it or not. Of Course St Augustine as part of the apostolic succession professed the truth. As did St Aquinas and hosts of other saints, and doctors of the Christian faith. Heresies like yours have never succeeded, never prevailed against their teachings and never will prevail against the bride of Christ, the Catholic Church. How convenient it is for those who decide to re-interpret scripture to fit whatever fancy they decide to follow. They are so smug in their rebellion against the lawful authority, the authority of those who Christ himself appointed to lead his Church here on earth. When you rebel against the Catholic Church you rebel against God. Christ and his Church are one.

Thank You I now have the Gosple according to Hisalone, again Thank you but I stay with the teaching of the Apostles,

 

[Norminha]

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther

From the above statement, new obedience, caught my attention. Is there an old obedience? If yes, which is it? Just curious.

 

[RNRobert]

Hisalone - perhaps it was Luther who sold us the “lie”. To me, scripture and the earliest writings of Christians who were direct disciples of the apostles themselves, shows us there was (and is) a Church of authority preserved through apostolic succession. That Church has maintained remarkable unity of doctrine (explained only by the preservation of the Holy Spirit). It was Luther (have you read his writings?) who in a candidly, very tortured and schizophrenic way, changed the gospel and re-read texts of the scriptures in ways never read or taught before (and inconsistent, frankly, with itself).

Once that “lie” took hold, Satan had a grand time dividing the church in a twitsted downward spiral - the fruit of the reformation was not, as initially intended, a “return” to the true teachings of the scriptures and a unity in the body of Christ - the “fruit” is divisiveness, rightousness and condemnation between christians. That is disturbing.

In any event, I am finding Catholic doctrine to be scriptural, reverential and consistent with the earliest beliefs of christians. Most significantly to me, I believe in the power of the sacraments and in the “real presence” of the Eucharist - and that calls me to the Catholic Church.

I do believe we can be saved and have faith within or without the Church (the Catholic Church teaches us this too), but I have come to believe that the Catholic Church possess the fullest expression of our faith.

Blessings,

Brian

Peace be with you Brian. This is an excellent post. There were problems with the Chuch in Luther’s day (shucks, the Church has always had problems-just read some of the NT epistles), but Luther threw the baby out with the bath water. As Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote in *Those Mysterious priests *, “The Reformation reformed doctrine when it was morals that needed reforming.”

 

[greggy53]

I agree that there was a replacement of Judas by another bishop, as Scripture made prophecy of.
The Lord Jesus promised twelve thrones for the Apostles to judge the nation of Israel in the coming kingdom. An “Apostolic Succession” would require more than twelve thrones, if the final total of Apostles were more than twelve.
The number of names of Apostles over the four gates of the New Jerusalem is only twelve so “Apostolic Succession” is not indicated there either.

So what you are professing here is that after the 12 died the Church was leaderless?

 

[erikd]

Christ founded a church on Him He is the foundation.
Christs Church is Christ made founded on Christ.
Man made is founded on man and is not founded on Christ nor is it Christs Church

Hisalone:

Please answer post #81.

Thank you.

 

[erikd]

So you have bought into the lie?

Yes all believers must have their sins forgiven and must on a continuous basis go before God and have our sins cleansed by the blood. All beleivers have been given the ministry of reconcilaition not just clergy. We are to confess our sins one to another, do you see this in Catholic practice-----NO!!!
Christ established His church on Christ He is the Rock. All that confess that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God are His living visiable and invisable church. Even Augustine professed and taught this.
The only unity we will have is if we stay in Christ.

St. Augustine was also a Roman Catholic Priest who defended the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. The very same teachings which the Church professes today, and the very same teachings you seem to be slanting to match your own twisted brand of theology. If you are to misrepresent the views of St. Augustine, please provide actual quotations and remember not to take things out of context.