Protestants: please stop using the label "Bible-believing"

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Of course, that’s all just my opinion…I could be wrong.

Respectfully,

Dave, who’s pretty sure he’s Bible-believing
Good grief…why don’t you open up a whole 100 cans of worms…as if this thread wasn’t already difussed enough. What get’s me is all this has been covered…here, there, everywhere…in countless books through today and the ages…there is nothing new under the sun.

But if you are still making these accusations about what supposedly Catholics do or believe, you haven’t done DUE DILLIGENCE…I whipe the dust off from my feet and move on.

P.S. I’m sure you are pretty sure you believe you are a bible believer. But what you really are is a believer in YOUR interpretation of the bible and even at that…only parts of the bible.
 
Celibacy might be a good thing for some, but if it leads others to sin it cannot be good.
So Janet 1983…would you tell us how and where celebacy is practiced and honored in your faith community?
 
That does not justify celibacy being mandatory…
Where is it mandatory? It seems the exact opposite is true…it is entirely absent in your faith community…still waiting for examples of how you celebrate, honor and practice it…given Jesus, the Word of God, the apostles, saints and historians have all celebrated it.
 
Where is it mandatory? It seems the exact opposite is true…it is entirely absent in your faith community…still waiting for examples of how you celebrate, honor and practice it…given Jesus, the Word of God, the apostles, saints and historians have all celebrated it.
“All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate “for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.” Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to “the affairs of the Lord,” they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church’s minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.” #1579

For a long time there was no such thing as celibacy… Leaders of congregations were married. Some women too were leaders of their households or a deacon…
Why make someone stay without a partner?
As a teenager I asked my pastor (who was about to retire) what the worst thing about celibacy was… He told me that is was the problem of being alone. All of his family had already passed away, he did not have any children of course and he himself was an only child. He did devote his life to his parish, but couldn’t he have done that just as well or even better had he had a loving wife at home to strengthen him after a long day of working?
Why make people do this? Some are called to it, I agree, but many are not and they should rather marry than burn inside. Isn’t this actually leading many men to sin? If they were allowed to get married wouldn’t they be far less likely to succumb to sexual sin?
 
Isn’t this actually leading many men to sin? If they were allowed to get married wouldn’t they be far less likely to succumb to sexual sin?
That is a perfect explanation for the problem of sexual sin Janet… if only married people didn’t also commit the same sins. Has a married man never molested a child? Raped a women? Has a father never physically and sexually abused his child? Has there never been a single man who has never committed the same acts? The problem with these men who commit these crimes, these sins, is not that they are married or unmarried, but that they are fallen.

God bless
 
That is a perfect explanation for the problem of sexual sin Janet… if only married people didn’t also commit the same sins. Has a married man never molested a child? Raped a women? Has a father never physically and sexually abused his child? Has there never been a single man who has never committed the same acts? The problem with these men who commit these crimes, these sins, is not that they are married or unmarried, but that they are fallen.

God bless
Also, the priesthood is a vocation. You really need to be called to it.
 
You cannot make someone refrain from having a partner. If God calls them into the ministry they are doing exactly what they are told to do… if they can they stay without a spouse and if not they are husbands of one wife.
There are vast numbers of illegitimate children of priests who can only call their fathers “Dad” when nobody is listening and their mothers are being looked at strange by people because they cannot tell the name of the child’s father… If they get lucky they become the priests housekeepers and the priest will be celebrated for being so good to this woman.
It is just ridiculous… How many priests are leaving their calling because they fell in love and got married? How can this be called good in a circumstances where there is a severe lack of priests?
How is it possible to sanction something that literally drives people into sin? Celibacy might be a good thing for some, but if it leads others to sin it cannot be good.

Edit: you did read the context for your verse, did you? It is about divorce, not about celibacy…
Can you please explain to us how celibacy leads to sinful nature? Is that anything like being President leads to adultery?

I’m sorry, I just had to. 😊

This is a rediculous statement. A person’s vocation does not lead to sin.
 
That is a perfect explanation for the problem of sexual sin Janet… if only married people didn’t also commit the same sins. Has a married man never molested a child? Raped a women? Has a father never physically and sexually abused his child? Has there never been a single man who has never committed the same acts? The problem with these men who commit these crimes, these sins, is not that they are married or unmarried, but that they are fallen.

God bless
Don’t you think that fulfillment of this desire greatly reduces the chances simply lusting after a woman? This is not about the statistic of child molestation… this is about sins that only God can see. How can a healthy relationship with a partner not lead to an attitude that greatly reduces lusting after someone?
Don’t you agree that there is a need for young priests but only few actually answer the calling because they want to live in a healthy relationship? In Germany fewer and fewer priests are responsible for more and more parishes because there are simply not enough candidates. 4 or more parishes per priest should not be a standard (happens in the town I was raised in)… even 2 or more can already lead to a burn out. How do you expect the few that are available to handle this? How do you expect them to handle this without the loving support of a family?
And how can you expect someone who is living alone to understand the problems of marital communication to the fullest degree? Sure a priest understands a lot about faithfulness, but how could he ever understand the issues within a marriage? He surely can learn and study about the topic, but will he ever really know what is going on? Out of those priests that leave the ministry to get married many get divorced after a few years… They know with their intellect how to handle these situations, but they never seen the practical results. How can a man who has never been married successfully counsel a married couple? I know that you don’t have to be an adulterer to counsel one, but how can a priest ever understand marital life and communication?
How is it possible that other Christian groups can easily allow marriage of their pastors and reap the benefits while it seems to be impossible for the RCC? These pastors and priests are a good example of how it could be if celibacy was abolished. It works for the Eastern Catholic Church, so why does the RCC not learn from the benefits others have in this? The tradition, experience and infrastructure to handle married priests can be easily established. Why not learn from the experiences others have already made? I know that converting priests from other denominations (incl. the Eastern rite) can stay married and that they cannot remarry after their wives passed away. Why is it so complicated to allow marriage for all if it is already done for those men who become catholic priests from other denominational backgrounds?
Doesn’t it dishonor the sanctity of marriage if it is proclaimed that a priest has to stay unmarried? The priest is to be an example, why not also in the realm of families? He can definitely show how it ought to be done and be a living example if he is called to be a husband and a father.
Some are incapable of marriage, I know that, but those who are not should not be excluded from the service. They are the ones that can give examples to all the men in his parish on how to lead a godly life as a husband and father and his wife can do exactly the same for the women in the parish. It is not scriptural to deny those who are capable of marriage the company and support of a loving wife.
Early Christianity did practice it like that. The bishops and deacons are to be blameless and husband of one wife. The eastern rite practices it, other Christian churches practice it. Just because something has endured throughout the ages does not mean that it is profitable.
A priest is in an undoubted unique role because everybody will focus on what he does and so they will also focus on what he does privately. Being a good example of a godly husband and father is better than just preaching about it. Actions always speak louder than words.
A family does not take the focus of God and His people. It emphasizes this focus. Because he has a unique role in his family as well as in his parish and because he has the understanding to lead a godly life he can concentrate on his calling. He can concentrate on it because he has the backing of a family and when he is done with his work he will be able to go home to his loving family…
 
Don’t you think that fulfillment of this desire greatly reduces the chances simply lusting after a woman? This is not about the statistic of child molestation… this is about sins that only God can see. How can a healthy relationship with a partner not lead to an attitude that greatly reduces lusting after someone?
Don’t you agree that there is a need for young priests but only few actually answer the calling because they want to live in a healthy relationship? In Germany fewer and fewer priests are responsible for more and more parishes because there are simply not enough candidates. 4 or more parishes per priest should not be a standard (happens in the town I was raised in)… even 2 or more can already lead to a burn out. How do you expect the few that are available to handle this? How do you expect them to handle this without the loving support of a family?
And how can you expect someone who is living alone to understand the problems of marital communication to the fullest degree? Sure a priest understands a lot about faithfulness, but how could he ever understand the issues within a marriage? He surely can learn and study about the topic, but will he ever really know what is going on? Out of those priests that leave the ministry to get married many get divorced after a few years… They know with their intellect how to handle these situations, but they never seen the practical results. How can a man who has never been married successfully counsel a married couple? I know that you don’t have to be an adulterer to counsel one, but how can a priest ever understand marital life and communication?
How is it possible that other Christian groups can easily allow marriage of their pastors and reap the benefits while it seems to be impossible for the RCC? These pastors and priests are a good example of how it could be if celibacy was abolished. It works for the Eastern Catholic Church, so why does the RCC not learn from the benefits others have in this? The tradition, experience and infrastructure to handle married priests can be easily established. Why not learn from the experiences others have already made? I know that converting priests from other denominations (incl. the Eastern rite) can stay married and that they cannot remarry after their wives passed away. Why is it so complicated to allow marriage for all if it is already done for those men who become catholic priests from other denominational backgrounds?
Doesn’t it dishonor the sanctity of marriage if it is proclaimed that a priest has to stay unmarried? The priest is to be an example, why not also in the realm of families? He can definitely show how it ought to be done and be a living example if he is called to be a husband and a father.
Some are incapable of marriage, I know that, but those who are not should not be excluded from the service. They are the ones that can give examples to all the men in his parish on how to lead a godly life as a husband and father and his wife can do exactly the same for the women in the parish. It is not scriptural to deny those who are capable of marriage the company and support of a loving wife.
Early Christianity did practice it like that. The bishops and deacons are to be blameless and husband of one wife. The eastern rite practices it, other Christian churches practice it. Just because something has endured throughout the ages does not mean that it is profitable.
A priest is in an undoubted unique role because everybody will focus on what he does and so they will also focus on what he does privately. Being a good example of a godly husband and father is better than just preaching about it. Actions always speak louder than words.
A family does not take the focus of God and His people. It emphasizes this focus. Because he has a unique role in his family as well as in his parish and because he has the understanding to lead a godly life he can concentrate on his calling. He can concentrate on it because he has the backing of a family and when he is done with his work he will be able to go home to his loving family…
Oh my goodness Janet!!! Do you think for one minute these priest do this because they lust after women? What is wrong with that logic???

You need to go right now and sign up for the nearest class on the psychology of pedaphiles (or however it’s spelled).

Seriously
 
Janet:

I apologize for what I’m about to say but I have seen you on this forum blasting the Church at any opportunity given you.

What in the world made you this angry?

I know you don’t believe half the stuff you’ve said on this forum about the Church, you are too intelligent for that. I can tell by your posts you are not ignorant and simply parroting things you’ve heard.

I also know you are a former catholic. So what did the Church do to you to deserve this?

You can’t possibly believe that a grown man goes through approximately 8 years to be a priest not knowing what all that means. You cannot tell me that celibacy is not in the forefront of their training and discernment. They are well aware of what they are getting into.

This is pediphelia and cannot be avoided by simple satisfaction of a natural need and you cannot be suggesting that these men should have children.

How about you stop all this angry anti-catholic stuff and promote whatever form of Christianity you are a part of now.

God Bless,

HC
 
Don’t you think that fulfillment of this desire greatly reduces the chances simply lusting after a woman?
No. Otherwise we would have no married men “lusting after women” who are not their wives. Again Janet, have you never heard of a married man committing adultery? I didn’t marry my wife because of lust Janet. I won’t speculate on why other men married their wives, but my reasoning was a much stronger reason than lust.
This is not about the statistic of child molestation… this is about sins that only God can see.
Child molestation is not a sexual sin Janet? Since when? Your comment was about sexual sins. How are we supposed to have a conversation if words mean whatever you want them to mean?
How can a healthy relationship with a partner not lead to an attitude that greatly reduces lusting after someone?
It can, but the absence of said relationship doesn’t mean that someone is at the mercy of their desires.
Don’t you agree that there is a need for young priests but only few actually answer the calling because they want to live in a healthy relationship?
I won’t speculate on why people don’t answer the call. Do some do so because they want a family? Sure. Is this the universal reason for not seeking the call? I don’t think so but you seem to be the authority on men and their desires so why don’t you tell me.
And how can you expect someone who is living alone to understand the problems of marital communication to the fullest degree?
My point was about your faulty reasoning regarding sins of a sexual nature. Allowing priests to marry will not alleviate the “sexual sins” of those men who would have already committed these crimes, married or unmarried. Again, if getting married was the answer for men to stop committing these sins, then there would be no married men committing these sins which of course is not the case.

God bless
 
Oh my goodness Janet!!! Do you think for one minute these priest do this because they lust after women? What is wrong with that logic???

You need to go right now and sign up for the nearest class on the psychology of pedaphiles (or however it’s spelled).

Seriously
Huh? Lusting after a woman is already sin and what do you refer to when saying “do this”?
 
Child molestation is not a sexual sin Janet? Since when? Your comment was about sexual sins. How are we supposed to have a conversation if words mean whatever you want them to mean?
All I said is that this argument is not about child molestation. It sure is sinful and you and I know that, but I referred to something different and because that one topic is always thrown in I wanted to make sure that I clarified that it is not a part of my argument because it does not stand statistics.
 
This is pediphelia and cannot be avoided by simple satisfaction of a natural need and you cannot be suggesting that these men should have children.
Are you suggesting that all priests are pedophiles? That’s ridiculous…
I was purposely not talking about unnatural desires of people who should go ahead and have a therapy. I was simply talking about natural desires…
Even though a priest is surely well instructed he is still a man and as a such he will think and have his personal problems. One of them is that there is a higher risk of lusting after a woman than there is for a married, sexually fulfilled man.

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Matthew 5:28

I did not say that this will happen to all men and to all priests as such. I know that there are men who are unable to marry and they can therefore live easily as celibate priests. I was arguing against the fact that only those who think they can do so are being ordained and that there are quite a few positive aspects to a married clergy (if you even bothered to read through my whole text before accusing me of hatred.)
You call this hatred? Read through my text and look whether you find any in there. I was just stating facts and used examples from other Christian communities as well as the Eastern rite.
 
Huh? Lusting after a woman is already sin and what do you refer to when saying “do this”?
Well, maybe I misunderstood this is what you posted (in part):

“How can a healthy relationship with a partner not lead to an attitude that greatly reduces lusting after someone?”

That seems to me to say that if they were in relationships with women (although I’m making an assumption here that you are still against homosexuality), that they would not molest children.

Can you explain what you were saying if not that?
 
Are you suggesting that all priests are pedophiles? That’s ridiculous…
I was purposely not talking about unnatural desires of people who should go ahead and have a therapy. I was simply talking about natural desires…
Even though a priest is surely well instructed he is still a man and as a such he will think and have his personal problems. One of them is that there is a higher risk of lusting after a woman than there is for a married, sexually fulfilled man.

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Matthew 5:28

I did not say that this will happen to all men and to all priests as such. I know that there are men who are unable to marry and they can therefore live easily as celibate priests. I was arguing against the fact that only those who think they can do so are being ordained and that there are quite a few positive aspects to a married clergy (if you even bothered to read through my whole text before accusing me of hatred.)
You call this hatred? Read through my text and look whether you find any in there. I was just stating facts and used examples from other Christian communities as well as the Eastern rite.
Janet, you continually do this. You get tangled in your own accusations. You were positing that celibacy causes molestation of children within the Church. You stated that if priests were allowed to have relationships (be married) they would not be so prone to committing this terrible sin, let alone CRIME.

When someone calls you on it, you state we are accusing you of something you didn’t say. Well you did say it.

Furthermore, where in the world did I accuse you of hatred Janet? Really, you should take a breather.

Peace Be With You.
 
For a long time there was no such thing as celibacy… Leaders of congregations were married.
That’s historically incorrect. While it’s true that in the last 2000 years plenty of Priests and Bishops have been married, this is known as an abuse of power. The Church teaching on this has been clear since the first council:

Canon 3. The great Synod has stringently forbidden any bishop, presbyter, deacon, or any one of the clergy whatever, to have a subintroducta dwelling with him, except only a mother, or sister, or aunt, or such persons only as are beyond all suspicion.
Council of Nicaea 325 AD
Some women too were leaders of their households or a deacon…
Why make someone stay without a partner?
Janet, I think that your signature can answer that question:

“There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any moment, out of hell,
but the mere pleasure of God.”

Jonathan Edwards
 
All I said is that this argument is not about child molestation. It sure is sinful and you and I know that, but I referred to something different and because that one topic is always thrown in I wanted to make sure that I clarified that it is not a part of my argument because it does not stand statistics.
Janet, do you realize that molestation is the same sin as adultery? Do you realize that when a priest is having an intimate relationship with a woman he is committing adultery? Do you know all sexual sin comes under one commandment? Guess which one…adultery.

We are talking about one sin. It doesn’t matter which one it is. We just look upon molestation as worse because there is an innocent child involved. God doesn’t make these kinds of distinctions between us.

But whatever the case. I really don’t believe that you believe any of this. I think you are angry (not hateful) and looking to find fault with the Church. :o

God Bless,

HC
 
You don’t read about the good priests in the news…I remember as a boy many years ago a very kind and gentle priest who was in charge of us altar boys. God love him, he was a wonderful man. The good sisters of the IHM. I rmember them too. They sacrificed any personal comfort or wants to give us a great education. They led by example, and taught us The Way.
 
Well, maybe I misunderstood this is what you posted (in part):

“How can a healthy relationship with a partner not lead to an attitude that greatly reduces lusting after someone?”

That seems to me to say that if they were in relationships with women (although I’m making an assumption here that you are still against homosexuality), that they would not molest children.

Can you explain what you were saying if not that?
Oh, I didn’t realize that I wrote it like that.
I meant of course lusting after a woman. It is already a sin to lust after a woman and someone who has a beautiful (in his eyes and also beautiful in her spirit) woman at home is not as easily tempted as someone who does not… I do not want to express that being married completely prevents lusting, but it sure does reduce the temptation.
Lusting by the way is always sexual, not just recognizing that someone looks good (this goes for men as much as for women).
Pedophiles on the other hand are a totally different category… I was talking about healthy men not about those who are in need of a therapy.
 
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