Protestants: please stop using the label "Bible-believing"

[benedictus2]

Why is contraception wrong? Sex was not instituted initially for procreation but for oneness between Adam and Eve. God told them to be fruitful and replenish the earth.

Exactly. God told them to be fruitful and multiply. Contraception is against that multiplication command. Nowhere did God say, be fruitfull and multipliy but if you feel you don’t want children then by all means, contracept.

Contraception is the supreme selfish choice to have sexual pleasure without the responsiblity that goes with. Contraception is self centred and therefore not God centred.

With 6 billion people, I dare say the earth is replenished.

That is your point of view not God’s. You will not find your point of view in the Bible. Quite the contrary.

Note, God did not say to replenish a church but the earth.

You’re right. Only an idiot would think that God commanded us to replenish the Church and no Catholic ever claimed it to be so.

Then sex now is for oneness and love in a marriage.

True. But sex must be open to life. If the Lord God is indeed the Lord of your life, He and He alone has a say of when children will be conceived. Not you. If you do not want to have children. Don’t have sex. The natural consequence of sex if God so wills is children. Contracepting is telling God no I do not want the children that you want to give me. This is embracing the culture of death. The Bible says CHOSE LIFE.

So either the Lord is indeed the Lord of your Life or the Lord of your life is the one looking at you in the mirror.

I’ll stick with the Bible only because too many have added teachings to the Bible that are very much against the Bible and say that ‘God told them’.

And who are these people and what teachings are they?

For you to say the understanding of ‘Bible only’ is a lie and therefore of the devil, what would that make your understanding about the ‘Bible only’ being wrong — would your belief be of the devil?

For the simple reason that what Christ did was to leave us the Church. He did not leave us a book, He left us a Church. And from that Church came the Bible. You cannot divorce the Bible from the Church that Christ founded and from whom the Bible came.

“The Bible Only” is a lie of the devil because it plays on your ego. I alone will interpret, I alone will decide. This is how the devil always gets us, through our ego. This is how it got Adam and Eve. The Bible Only is Sola Ego. I / Me / Myself with a total disregard for what God willed. That is why you think contraception is okay.

Just goes to show how firmly the lie has got you in its grip.

It’s interesting that RCC members get upset when silly people say your of the devil, then people like yourself tell us that some of our beliefs are of the devil.

I am just stating a fact here. And I have explained why it is so. I can go into a more detailed explanation.

Let me know if you me to explain further.

Is that ‘the pot calling the kettle black?’ Shouldn’t we all be careful not to point fingers at others? Remember we have 3 fingers pointing back at us. “Judge not or you’ll be judeged.”

No, it is not the pot calling the kettle black. God founded His Church. His Church cannot be of the devil because He gave a solemn promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

And it is not about judging. It is calling a spade a dirty shovel.

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t disagree the church of Jesus Christ has played a part. I disagree if you think that church is the RCC.​

There is only One Church that can trace itself back to Peter and the Apostles. That is the Catholic Church. The protestant Churches started only in the 1500s.

 

[benedictus2]

The only difference is that no reformer ever claimed infallibility

Because they can’t.

nor that they were “successors” to Peter and the apostles who were in fact quite Christlike.

Because they weren’t.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Yes, there are a lot. Just check the OT where it says a lot of times “Thus says the LORD.” Also, Peter in his second epistle recognized the epistles of Paul as “Scripture.”

Actually I was looking for particular instances where the Scriptures specifically claim for themselves that they are the voice of God. Can you provide me with a verse or verses?

God bless you

 

[greggy53]

Yes, there are a lot. Just check the OT where it says a lot of times “Thus says the LORD.” Also, Peter in his second epistle recognized the epistles of Paul as “Scripture.”

Funny how you should mention the 2nd Epistle of St Peter…20 "Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. "

There should no presonal interpretation of scripture…What say the “Bible Believers” about this one? Are you Bible believers with this scripture or Bible ignorers?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The only difference is that no reformer ever claimed infallibility nor that they were “successors” to Peter and the apostles who were in fact quite Christlike.

A Lutheran and or an Anglican will have to correct me on this matter, but I believe both churches affirm Apostolic succession and consider it rather important.

God bless

 

[jake23]

Nope; just trying to get you to see yourself; as in a mirror. You still cannot help yourself by looking at the first line you wrote. Humility is the place where God comes and meets the lost sinners.

You seiousely got some issues! Let it go guy! You can play judge all you want but no one is going to fall for the lies! You have just pulled this thread up again and have read all your posts and wow are you lacking of education! Are you so cluelless that you do not realize that the Bible was written much later by Catholics and you interpretations are horribly wrong! You are so lost and yet judge and preach to others which is a grave sin! You are teaching false teachings created by youre self opinions instead of Christs! There more people lack knowledge, the more opinionated they become and you fall right into this category! Seriousely grow up and get an education, most importantly embrace the truth and let go of the lies! I will pray even for someone liek you! Good luck!

 

[Dokimas]

1. 
   *]I think it says be fruitful and multiply.
   *]how does that happen if a couple is contracepting
   *]that means sex is for procreation AND oneness.
   
   Says who? What’s your source
   
   Your problem is, you create strawmen.
   
   God said be fruitful and multiply.
   
   Show me one verse in scripture that promotes contraception. Don’t duck this question. I would like to see your answer.

1. 
   

   This is what the verse says: Ge 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;​

   The earth is pretty full. If it’s so important that we keep having children to obey God, why did Paul tell us it’s better not to marry?​

   If you can show me a verse that tells you to drive your car, then I’ll show you a verse about contraception. Of course you can’t, there were no cars then. I doubt there were any mechanical contraception to be written about over 1900 years ago.​

   BTW, you seem to have an attitude problem.

 

[Dokimas]

If they are easy then you would have the correct answer but your answer is no answer at all. How do you know that Jesus died and did rise again? You can’t say because the Bible said so because that would be circular reasoning.

So I ask again, How do you know that the Bible is indeed the Word fo God?​

Second, Jesus did establish His church. He (His perfect life, His sacrificial death and His resurrection) is the only foundation of the church. He built upon it with His apostles of which Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and James was the leader in Jerusalem. [/qutoe]
Naah. For someone who claims to belive that the Bible is the Word of God you completely left out Matthew 16:18.

 

[steve_b]

This is what the verse says: Ge 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;​

The earth is pretty full.

according to who?
D:

If it’s so important that we keep having children to obey God, why did Paul tell us it’s better not to marry?

What is the context of Paul’s statement?
Did Paul say don’t marry? No. In the greater context of Paul’s writings, did he not want people to marry? No.
D:

If you can show me a verse that tells you to drive your car, then I’ll show you a verse about contraception.

You brought up contraception 1st. Therefore you go 1st. Where does scripture teach contraception.
D:

I doubt there were any mechanical contraception to be written about over 1900 years ago.

Does this mean you don’t have an answer? mechanical contraception isn’t the only form of contraception they had. And yes, contraception was available even in OT times. So show where contraception was promoted by scripture.
D:

BTW, you seem to have an attitude problem.

Why, because I asked you not to duck the question. If you had an answer I think you would have produced it immediately. Can you produce the scripture that promotes contraception Y/N? If no just say so. If yes please produce it.

 

[Dokimas]

according to who?

What is the context of Paul’s statement?
Did Paul say don’t marry? No. In the greater context of Paul’s writings, did he not want people to marry? No.

You brought up contraception 1st. Therefore you go 1st. Where does scripture teach contraception.

Does this mean you don’t have an answer? mechanical contraception isn’t the only form of contraception they had. And yes, contraception was available even in OT times. So show where contraception was promoted by scripture.

Why, because I asked you not to duck the question. If you had an answer I think you would have produced it immediately. Can you produce the scripture that promotes contraception Y/N? If no just say so. If yes please produce it.

I’ve never seen anything about contraception one way or the other. Your turn. Please tell us the verses where contraception is prohibited.​

You have an attitude because you asked me not to duck the question?

1 Corinthians 7:
1 ¶ Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am;
9 but if they cannot exercise self–control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.​

Before I ask you to interpret these verses for us, let me observe the reason Paul gives for marriage: needing sex (not to have children!!!1).

 

[erikd]

I’ve never seen anything about contraception one way or the other.

9 He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother’s wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother’s name.
10 And therefore the Lord slew him, be- cause he did a detestable thing.

Genesis 38:9-10

1 An eunuch, whose testicles are broken or cut away, or yard cut off, shall not enter into the church of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 23:1

All of Christendom condemned the practice of contraception, which interferes with God’s plan, until after 1930. The Catholic Church is the only major religion to hold true to the teachings of Holy Scripture. There are plenty of resources right here on Catholic.com which might shed some light on these issues:

catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

 

[Dokimas]

9 He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother’s wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother’s name.
10 And therefore the Lord slew him, be- cause he did a detestable thing.

Genesis 38:9-10

1 An eunuch, whose testicles are broken or cut away, or yard cut off, shall not enter into the church of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 23:1

All of Christendom condemned the practice of contraception, which interferes with God’s plan, until after 1930. The Catholic Church is the only major religion to hold true to the teachings of Holy Scripture. There are plenty of resources right here on Catholic.com which might shed some light on these issues:

catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

According to Deuteronomy, a eunuch can’t enter a RC church?​

Looking at the context of Gen 38 verses, seems God is speaking to a specific person. He killed the person for disobeying. Except for this verse, I’ve never heard of a man using contraception being killed by God. Have you?

 

[erikd]

According to Deuteronomy, a eunuch can’t enter a RC church?​

Looking at the context of Gen 38 verses, seems God is speaking to a specific person. He killed the person for disobeying. Except for this verse, I’ve never heard of a man using contraception being killed by God. Have you?

There are a great many things being done today that the people of the Old Testament would have been punished for. Just because we’re not punished in this lifetime doesn’t mean we won’t be punished in the next. The Old Testament really teaches what is and is not pleasing in the sight of God. It is up to us to obey His commands or disobey and risk the punishment of the eternal lake of fire.

As for Genesis 38, you’re absolutely right. God is addressing one specific person and punishing him for one specific act. Are you saying that others may act this way without the fear of punishment? The burden of proof would be on you to prove that philosophy.

 

[Dokimas]

As for Genesis 38, you’re absolutely right. God is addressing one specific person and punishing him for one specific act. Are you saying that others may act this way without the fear of punishment? The burden of proof would be on you to prove that philosophy.

Using your logic, what the angel said to Mary is to all women.​

Is there a record of anyone else being told that? Is there a record of anyone else dieing?​

We know the 10 commandments are not just for one person. It’s not addressed to one person. We know they are important to all because of what Jesus and the NT writers say about the Law of God.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

• • denotes footnote

Matthew 16

18 Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’),* and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell* will not conquer it.19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid* on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit* on earth will be permitted in heaven."
20 Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From then on Jesus* began to tell his disciples plainly that it was necessary for him to go to Jerusalem, and that he would suffer many terrible things at the hands of the elders, the leading priests, and the teachers of religious law. He would be killed, but on the third day he would be raised from the dead.
22 But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him* for saying such things. “Heaven forbid, Lord,” he said. “This will never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”
[NLT]

Lets takes this into context. First Jesus was perfect and the Son of God so He can’t lie or make deceptive statements or those words spoken of falsely. “This” is a simple word if He wanted to say something precise to make Peter the head of his Earthly and Spiritual Churches He would have. Its clear in the context to anyone that Jesus meant that the act of faith so pure is the basis of the Church in the broad sense all believers. And in honor of that changed his name to Peter meaning the Rock.

But note the next chapter Peter questioned Jesus and was angry at him in clear language.

To anyone that reads the two chapters its clear that the faith mattered and the man ,Peter, was not himself special. There were 12 Apostles plus Paul plus Mary of Magdela and other devotees of Jesus who all had ministries. Several women are noted in the Early Church preaching and speaking of God as well. Its pretty clear there the Holy Spirit was busy promoting branches and different aspects of the faith. All that matters is one love and honor Jesus as the Son everything else is trappings.

I will note it was your early Church that destroyed the branches of the tree how many heretics did your faith eliminate just because your Popes and Councils didn’t agree with some small matter of doctrine. That infighting was Satanic and plunged the faith into a dark abyss for centuries I feel. That same infighting I see here.

We are all brothers and sisters saved by the grace of Jesus and His sacrifice, we all look to the Son for our authoirty and how to behave. Is this very debate a thing that Christ would want?

I suggest praying on the matter and call on Him who gives us His blessing and whose faith we follow in His name, the Holy Spirit who floods us with gifts and the Father who sits in Heaven to seek wisdom and love on this matter.

 

[soflochristmas]

’Roman Catholic’
Be gentle with our friend. I too was once an evangelical Protestant; and Gottago may have issues not related to the subject at hand (perhaps control, or power): Our topic of debate may only be a vehicle to let off the steam of anger.
At the moment our Protestant friend needs to ventilate. God bless Gottago.
What people talk about, the presenting issue, is rarely the issue.
God bless you too 'Roman Catholic’

Kevin, you hit the nail on the head. Only problem is at some point all the “arguments” and appeals to reason, history, love, and truth have been made and then it becomes time to step back, wipe the dust from our feet, and move on.

 

[steve_b]

I’ve never seen anything about contraception one way or the other.

Then why did you invoke scripture to support your comments about contraception
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5693932&postcount=638
D:

Your turn. Please tell us the verses where contraception is prohibited.

I knew you would try and duck the question.
D:

1 Corinthians 7:
1 ¶ Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

The Greek in that passage is

“touch” haptomai
definition
1) to fasten one’s self to, adhere to, cling to
a) to touch
b) of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
c) of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
d) to touch, assail anyone
Now in context, what is Paul saying about not “touch” in this passage.

it could be

• (c) If it is in the Levitical context, i.e. if the priesthood, then celibacy is good
• (b) If it is in the unmarried context, then since sexual activity among unmarried people is fornication, which is a grievous sin, then this restriction of touch is to avoid serious sin. Obviously not a restriction meant for married life between husband and wife.

D:

2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.

avoiding sexual Immorality is the context. Enough said…
D:

7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

Note: In the priestly gift, mentioned above, it is perfectly appropriate to remain celibate.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am;

9 but if they cannot exercise self–control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

There is NOTHING here that talks of contraception. Why are you trying to make it so?
D:

Before I ask you to interpret these verses for us, let me observe the reason Paul gives for marriage: needing sex (not to have children!!!1).

No, it is about avoiding sexual misconduct.

Try again

 

[soflochristmas]

You seiousely got some issues! Let it go guy! You can play judge all you want but no one is going to fall for the lies! You have just pulled this thread up again and have read all your posts and wow are you lacking of education! Are you so cluelless that you do not realize that the Bible was written much later by Catholics and you interpretations are horribly wrong! You are so lost and yet judge and preach to others which is a grave sin! You are teaching false teachings created by youre self opinions instead of Christs! There more people lack knowledge, the more opinionated they become and you fall right into this category! Seriousely grow up and get an education, most importantly embrace the truth and let go of the lies! I will pray even for someone liek you! Good luck!

Jake, you too hit the nail on the head. 2,000 years of history, 1 billion present day believers, unified in faith, countless saints and people of example, and many, many people here who stoop to their level to provide spiritual solid food…that they might see and believe…some people will be drinking milk their whole life. In which case, it’s time to wipe the dust from our feet and move on.

Hebrews 5:11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Luke 10:10’Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’

Luke 10:16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Jesus refering to the Catholic Church

 

[erikd]

Using your logic, what the angel said to Mary is to all women.

I’m not sure how you can say that. If the angel Gabriel said that to all women, we’d have a lot of Jesus’ walking the earth. I guess I’m missing your point. The example I gave was that of someone doing something against God’s will and being punished for it. That person, in particular, did something particularly wrong in the eyes of God, and he was therefore punished. If someone else did it, the consequences would probably be similar, though they could be expressed differently. Not all people who sin are punished immediately, some are punished at their particular judgement. Do you feel this is incorrect? As far as the punishment relating to more people other than the one being spoken of in the particular passage, the offense is just as bad for one man as it is for another. Granted, exceptions can and have been made, i.e. King David. However, for the most part, these stories illustrate the disdain God has for certain actions and the possible consequences of those actions. Also, I am not generalizing the fact that all people will be punished equally for equal offenses, because I don’t believe they will. I believe that God looks at each individual and his / her actions throughout their life and bases His judgement of that person on the whole life of that person. Therefore, if you commit the sin that the person in question committed, but you lived an absolutely holy life otherwise, God would look at the entire package of events that make up your whole life and base His judgement on everything. Hope that answers your question.​

-Is there a record of anyone else being told that? Is there a record of anyone else dieing?

The Old Testament is full of stories of people being punished for their sins. Sodom and Gomorrah were two cities full of inhabitants who were killed for the unjust ways (Genesis 19:24-25). In the New Testament all of the Catholic Inspired Writers tell us that we should avoid sin at all cost, as it is not pleasing in the Eyes of the Lord.​

-We know the 10 commandments are not just for one person. It’s not addressed to one person. We know they are important to all because of what Jesus and the NT writers say about the Law of God.

I think you and I agree wholeheartedly on this.