Protestants: please stop using the label "Bible-believing"

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Maybe I misread HappyCatholic but it seems she/he likens birth control to murder. If so, using that logic, a woman kills millions of sperm even while getting pregnant.
Unnatural birthcontrol (anything other than the rythm method) is comparible to murder in that it is a sin, and a grave one.

They are alike in this way. It is no less a sin to prevent a human life (unnatural birth control) or cause a human life (fertility treatments) than it is to cause the death of a human.

I know this sounds harsh, but no matter the “typing” of the sin, it is all an interruption of God’s will for the unborn and the lives that will be affected by the unborn person.

The thought is that God will cause you to be pregnant if it is His will.

Blessings,

HC
 
Forced population control, is forced population control by whatever means…Who gets to decide who reproduces and who doesn’t?.. It’s fascism, and anti-Christian.
Whatever! :rolleyes: The couple decides. They have brains and human will, God gave us that. Nobody forces you to contracept, it woould still depend on the choice of the couple whether or not to plan their family size, to use whatever methods of contraception, whether NFP or artificial means, provided it is not abortion.
 
Does this mean that there is a possibility that God does not want to control the population for the sake of population control? If you say there is no passage either way than you must concede to this possibility, right? I ask because if I can show you that certain verses in the Bible refer to contraception, that would force you to review your outlook on God’s willingness to control the population for the sake of not overpopulating the earth. Right?
Yes, anything is possible when the Scriptures are silent. Moreover, let us remember what St. Paul said: “Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial” (2 Cor. 6:12a). Yes, if you can prove to me from Scripture that artificial contraception is prohibited then I willo concede. However, there are no passages, NONE, that PROHIBIT contraception, and please don’t even attempt to use the story of Onan because it has already been discussed lots of times in this and other threads. Yes, children are a blessing, that is in the Bible, but that still does not prohibit contraception. Let us be careful of making any unnecessary conclusions. Okay? 👍
 
Au contraire dear Bengoshi…

Any interferance with the sanctity of life is a sin against God. Murder is not the only sin involved in birth control in the case of abortion. You have also prevented an intended life from entering the world, that is separate from causing a death.

Only God should decide when a life is brought into the world and when it’s not. This is why fertility treatments are a sin. This is one of those things that is a hard pill to swallow, but is Truth nevertheless.

Blessings,

HC
Human tradition which has no clear scriptural basis. See Revelation 22:18-19 on adding to Scripture. Too bad you don’t appreciate God’s gift of reason and intellect, science, philosophy, and knowledge to humans that much. You just conveniently set it aside as evil. In fact if you remember your history, several scientists were excommunicated by Rome for heresy due to their scientific discoveries, which were then proven to be true nonetheless. It made the Catholic Church look stupid and backward. I hope it has learned its lesson.
 
What?? Your comparison makes no sense. When conception is allowed to take place naturally lots of sperm die, but God alone makes that determination. Many forms of contraception however interfere with that natural event thereby replacing Gods will with our own. Now I’m not opposed nor is the Church to all forms of conception. Just ones that unnaturally interfere or prevent conception, or ones that kill the child after conception.
I just want to let you know that Protestants, especially Calvinists, put great emphasis on God’s sovereign will, His providence, election and reprobation, and that He is in control of all things (Gk. “Ta panta”) due to His omnipotence.However, we do not use it as an excuse to be fatalistic in our attitude towards life. Human will and God’s will work hand in hand in ways that are a mysterious for us. God works His will in us. He uses humans to fulfil His will. Inaction should not be the result of faith. Filipinos have this wrong attitude called the “Bahala na” syndrome which is one of the causes of poverty and laziness. It a wrong attitude. It was brought to the Philippines by the Catholic Spanish conquerors. Such an attitude stunts progress.
 
I just want to let you know that Protestants, especially Calvinists, put great emphasis on God’s sovereign will, His providence, election and reprobation, and that He is in control of all things (Gk. “Ta panta”) due to His omnipotence.However, we do not use it as an excuse to be fatalistic in our attitude towards life. Human will and God’s will work hand in hand in ways that are a mysterious for us. God works His will in us. He uses humans to fulfil His will. Inaction should not be the result of faith. Filipinos have this wrong attitude called the “Bahala na” syndrome which is one of the causes of poverty and laziness. It a wrong attitude. It was brought to the Philippines by the Catholic Spanish conquerors. Such an attitude stunts progress.
Which may be appropriate place to return to orinal comment:
The Bible does not establish anything: Man’s confraternity of agreement establishes agreed interpretation; similarly this is interpreted or defined as the workings (or action) of the Holy Spirit.
Catholics are permitted to hold private interpretation of Scripture; as an instutional Church, interpretation belongs to the Body of the Faithful under what is accepted as Divine Revelation, this is seen as ‘Infallibility of Doctrine’ and pronounced *ex cathedra *by the Pope (from his position as head of the Catholic Church. In layman’s terms somewhat like a professor having seat of learning in a university. Recently we saw Pope John Paul 2 declare Mary “Mother of the Church”, saying it was something the Faithful had always believed.)
No Catholic is obliged to accept Catholic Dogma (Catholic belief) in private; when it affects and effects a neighbour (that is, the public) it is regarded as contractual agreement to one’s belonging to the Body of the Faithful.
 
Human tradition which has no clear scriptural basis. See Revelation 22:18-19 on adding to Scripture. Too bad you don’t appreciate God’s gift of reason and intellect, science, philosophy, and knowledge to humans that much. You just conveniently set it aside as evil. In fact if you remember your history, several scientists were excommunicated by Rome for heresy due to their scientific discoveries, which were then proven to be true nonetheless. It made the Catholic Church look stupid and backward. I hope it has learned its lesson.
remember, it was not just the Church, it was many mainstream scientists not affiliated with the Church. Take Galileo: he is popularely known to have been tried for heresy because of his heliocentric theory. He was, however, pushing his theory and demanding that it be taken as the only orthodox cosmological theory. Yes, it turned out to be right, but at the time there was nowhere NEAR enough proof to determine this, which is why Church, as well as scientists unaffiliated with the Church had him tried. Also, realize how many scientists have been Catholic clergy or monastics. Fr. Mendel, for one, as well as many others.

Personally, I think its Protestantism that has made itself look bad, with its influence, especially in northern Europe, in non-Christian, and even anti-Christian ‘enlightenment’ theories, as well as the appearence of radical rationalism, romanticism, etc etc. Kant, then Goethe, then Hegel,…all the way along the dark path to Nietzsche.
 
Yes, anything is possible when the Scriptures are silent. Moreover, let us remember what St. Paul said: “Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial” (2 Cor. 6:12a). Yes, if you can prove to me from Scripture that artificial contraception is prohibited then I willo concede. However, there are no passages, NONE, that PROHIBIT contraception, and please don’t even attempt to use the story of Onan because it has already been discussed lots of times in this and other threads. Yes, children are a blessing, that is in the Bible, but that still does not prohibit contraception. Let us be careful of making any unnecessary conclusions. Okay? 👍
It is interesting that you mentioned 1 Corinthians 6:12 as showing that contraception is allowable, presumably since it falls under the category of the word “all” as in “all things are lawful to me.” What must be understood, however, is that St. Paul here makes a comparison between those under the law and those outside of the law (the Jews and the Christians.) The distinction is between those that are under the Law of Moses and those that are under the law of faith. If one is to say that contraception is allowed under this passage, then one must not forget the rest of the passage: “all things are not expedient” (1 Cor. 6:12). After all, in the very next verse, St. Paul tells us that “the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body” (1 Cor. 6:13).

Your interpretation of the passages of Genesis 38 is partially correct, though very much incomplete. Catholic Answers has a tract on this very issue and here’s what the apologists say:

Catholic Answers Faith Tracts on Contraception

*The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. “Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also” (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as “Onanism,” after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as “Sodomy,” after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).*

catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

The early Church has always believed that the improper use of the seed (Onanism) is very much contrary to the natural law of God.

Clement of Alexandria

*“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted” (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).*

Lactantius

“God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital ’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring” (ibid., 6:23:18) [A.D. 307]).

Council of Nicaea I

*"f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. (Canon 1 [A.D. 325]).

Augustine

"I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 [A.D. 419]).

Jerome

“But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?” (Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393]).

John Chrysostom, St

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. . . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws? (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).*
 
It is interesting that you mentioned 1 Corinthians 6:12 as showing that contraception is allowable, presumably since it falls under the category of the word “all” as in “all things are lawful to me.” What must be understood, however, is that St. Paul here makes a comparison between those under the law and those outside of the law (the Jews and the Christians.) The distinction is between those that are under the Law of Moses and those that are under the law of faith. If one is to say that contraception is allowed under this passage, then one must not forget the rest of the passage: “all things are not expedient” (1 Cor. 6:12). After all, in the very next verse, St. Paul tells us that “the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body” (1 Cor. 6:13).

Your interpretation of the passages of Genesis 38 is partially correct, though very much incomplete. Catholic Answers has a tract on this very issue and here’s what the apologists say:

Catholic Answers Faith Tracts on Contraception

The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. “Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also” (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as “Onanism,” after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as “Sodomy,” after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).

catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

The early Church has always believed that the improper use of the seed (Onanism) is very much contrary to the natural law of God.

Clement of Alexandria

*“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted” (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).*

Lactantius

“God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital ’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring” (ibid., 6:23:18) [A.D. 307]).

Council of Nicaea I

"f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. (Canon 1 [A.D. 325]).

Augustine

"I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 [A.D. 419]).

Jerome

“But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?” (Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393]).

John Chrysostom, St

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. . . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws? (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).

What a low view of sex these people have then! For them and the RCC, the purpose of sex is merely to procreate (to propagate the species), while most Protestants, gleaning from the teachings of the Bible, say that sex within the confines of marriage, have a two-fold purpose, i.e. 1) as an expression of marital love and passion, and 2) as an act of procreation. Absent any one of the two purposes of sex would make man nothing more than an animal with regard to sexual activity.
 
What a low view of sex these people have then! For them and the RCC, the purpose of sex is merely to procreate (to propagate the species), while most Protestants, gleaning from the teachings of the Bible, say that sex within the confines of marriage, have a two-fold purpose, i.e. 1) as an expression of marital love and passion, and 2) as an act of procreation. Absent any one of the two purposes of sex would make man nothing more than an animal with regard to sexual activity.
You still have not addressed your interpretation of the story of Onan. I showed you why Onan was slain, not just humiliated. Can you address this issue before we move on to the next one?
 
What a low view of sex these people have then! For them and the RCC, the purpose of sex is merely to procreate (to propagate the species), while most Protestants, gleaning from the teachings of the Bible, say that sex within the confines of marriage, have a two-fold purpose, i.e. 1) as an expression of marital love and passion, and 2) as an act of procreation. Absent any one of the two purposes of sex would make man nothing more than an animal with regard to sexual activity.
I am a Catholic (one of the RCC), what you have written reads very similar to what I have written elsewhere.
Surprisingly,occasionally I do try to stay on the thread.
 
Maybe I misread HappyCatholic but it seems she/he likens birth control to murder. If so, using that logic, a woman kills millions of sperm even while getting pregnant.
Many types of birth control are murder because they kill the child * after * conception. Other types prevent union between sperm and egg unnaturally. Those are deemed sinful because they interfere with God’s will by perhaps preventing a child form forming that God wanted, or knew. Scripture says:“I knew you in your mother’s womb,” The Church tells us that God knows all of us, and our lives here are not an accident. In the Christian “ethos” nothing is accidental. God has a plan for everything and everyone. The so called Bible believers believe this as well, but they conveniently forget this aspect when it comes to birth control.
 
May I ask some questions?
How many times have you, Catholics, had relations {intercourse} with your wife or husband through out the years?
How many children do you have?
Did you have relations {intercourse} just to procreate?
How many times did your wife get pregnant?
What was the outcome of her pregnancy?
Did you use any kind of protection? {not just condums, or the pill there are other ways besides these 2}
I know these questions are personal and nobody wants to discuss them but I have a reason for these questions.
 
Yes, anything is possible when the Scriptures are silent. Moreover, let us remember what St. Paul said: “Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial” (2 Cor. 6:12a).
Context context context
B:
Yes, if you can prove to me from Scripture that artificial contraception is prohibited then I will concede.

However, there are no passages, NONE, that PROHIBIT contraception, and please don’t even attempt to use the story of Onan because it has already been discussed lots of times in this and other threads. Yes, children are a blessing, that is in the Bible, but that still does not prohibit contraception. Let us be careful of making any unnecessary conclusions. Okay? 👍
(emphasis mine)

1 Tim 2:15
women will be saved through childbearing—***if ***they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Notice the IF?

holiness in that sentence is (ἁγιασμός hagiasmos )

definition


1) consecration, purification
2) the effect of consecration
a) sanctification of heart and life
propriety in that sentence is (σωφροσύνη sōphrosynē )

definition


1) soundness of mind
2) self-control,

therefore,

how is contraception, which is a man made divice,pharmaceutical etc to deliberately through artificial means prevent conception after intercourse, an act of

faith
, (what God has prescribed )
love, (as Paul describes so well elsewhere)
holiness, (consecration, purificartion, of heart and action as defined above)
propriety (self control as defined above)

Use the scripture provided and refute what was said.

Gal 6:
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;

Seems to me that is a rather loaded statement… would you agree? Introducing BC pills, condoms, foams, creams, IUD’s, withdrawl, etc etc into the marital act making a natural and sacred act into an unnatural act, to purposefully prevent conception, might please the sinful nature as Paul says but in doing so has dire consequences as he warns…agreed?

here’s a connection you may not have had presented to you from the pharmaceutical side of the issue.

φαρμακεία pharmakeia G**al 5:20, Rev 9:21 (sorcery witchcraft depending on translation)

*definition (strongs) *
1) the use or the administering of drugs
2) poisoning
3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

φαρμακεύς pharmakeus Rev 21:9 (sorcery, witchcraft)
1) one who prepares or uses magical remedies
2) sorcerer

Pharmakeia/pharmakeus

now administering drugs to heal people is good. However that’s NOT the context here. We’re talking about administering potions and poisons to do harm. in the 1st century, administering drugs was ALSO associated with potions to prevent conception (spermacides, rinsings, etc) or once conception has taken place, potions that induce abortion. Yes they had these means in the 1st century to prevent conception. As you can see, it is condemned in scripture.
 
Whatever! :rolleyes: The couple decides. They have brains and human will, God gave us that. Nobody forces you to contracept, it woould still depend on the choice of the couple whether or not to plan their family size, to use whatever methods of contraception, whether NFP or artificial means, provided it is not abortion.
Maybe I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were speaking of forced birth control in over-populated countries. The way you worded it made it sound that way.
Here is your previous post:
Originally Posted by Bengoshi
God gave us science to understand the natural world around us, and science observes that there are places on the earth that are heavily populated. So in these areas, there should be population control.

The implied statement here is that “science” should decide. Am I right?

Even if you didn’t mean forced population control. It would still be a matter of God’s will vs human will. Catholics believe that our life does not belong to us. It is a gift from God, and starting it, as well as ending it is his prerogative alone.
 
Ephesians 5

22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord.23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of his body, the church.24 As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.
25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.*27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault.28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself.29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church.30 And we are members of his body.
31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.”*32 This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one.33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
[NLT]

Now I ask this if women are just for breeding children since Birth Control in the main is evil then is it right for a man to force his wife to have children if it might be a medical issue for one?

Also since conception occurs when the egg meets a sperm and there is interaction starting life, any method that prevents that should not be sinful. Before then they are cells not life that is simple science.

My mother of blessed memory had medical issues my father and her were Catholic at the time and he had a vasectomy because he loved my mother and it would have been cruel to harm her. And why should they refuse natural loving realtions as husband and wife which is a gift from God.
 
Dokimas:

A woman does not have control over her ovum nor a man’s sperm. That is not the intention of God. It is God’s intention for the life of a soul and the lives and souls of those involved that is compramised in birth control and fertility treatments.

What you are describing is the way in which God prescribed a human being to be conceived. Are you somehow suggesting that God is responsible for the deaths of persons whom fail to be conceived. This sounds illogical and not what you probably intended to say.

Your thoughts on this are notable, but again do not address the intentions of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

HC
Several posts back someone seemed to liken all contraception to murder, the killing of sperm. If that is what the person believes (which doesn’t make sense), then that person must account for the millions of sperm that die within a women. If one is murder, the other is too, IMO.
 
Several posts back someone seemed to liken all contraception to murder, the killing of sperm. If that is what the person believes (which doesn’t make sense), then that person must account for the millions of sperm that die within a women. If one is murder, the other is too, IMO.
The difference is that one is intentional and one is not.
 
Several posts back someone seemed to liken all contraception to murder, the killing of sperm. If that is what the person believes (which doesn’t make sense), then that person must account for the millions of sperm that die within a women. If one is murder, the other is too, IMO.
Some confusion here. Sperm are not viable in themselves. They are not human life, and they won’t be until they combine with an egg.
 
Some confusion here. Sperm are not viable in themselves. They are not human life, and they won’t be until they combine with an egg.
I agree with you. That’s why I con’t think it’s murder when sperm die through contriception.
 
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