Protestants: please stop using the label "Bible-believing"

[Bengoshi]

Hi, Bengoshi:

The burden of proof I spoke of referred to two topics. First one was the law and its penalty. You claimed that the law and penalties were “passed” in Deut. while I made the argument that they were merely presented in Deut. while existing in Genesis. The law of lying with your dead brother’s wife is explained for the first time in Deut. along with the penalty for disobedience. Yet, in Genesis, Onan is asked to follow this law, indicating that it existed back then. If the law existed, the punishment for disobedience would have existed as well, and, though presented by Moses in Deut. already existed in Genesis. To say otherwise is to claim that:

1: The law did not exist in Genesis: This would not make sense as Onan was asked to follow this law, showing that it must have already existed

2: That the penalty did not exist or was somehow changed: This would also not make sense since if the law exists one would assume the penalty exists as well.

3: That the penalty was changed between Genesis and Deut.: This would also not make sense since God does not change His mind or make mistakes, and a change in the law would indicate one of those circumstances.

So which one of the three above are you subscribing to?

The other burden of proof I presented to you was by showing you that the early Christians believed what I believe, and they were much closer in time to the writings of Genesis and Deuteronomy. I know they were over 1000 years apart but we are over 3000 years apart.

There is, however, another way of looking at this issue. God provides us with our offspring, they do not come from ourselves (Gen. 30:2, Luke 1:13-17) and it is therefore not prudent of us to prevent that which God provides.

In regards to your overpopulation argument, you have to keep in mind how populations work. Currently, you are paying into a social security system that provides social security to our elderly. Any payment you make does not add to your own account, it adds to the accounts of those currently on social security. When you will retire, and require social security, others will be paying for you. The same is true for our pension systems and many different retirement plans. Not all, since 401 and IRA plans are of our own doing and saving. Nevertheless, societies throughout the world have been built on reliance of reproduction. Our government is counting on children because they are future tax payers. This practical argument cannot be avoided since a depletion of population will inevitably cause economic hardships.

It was a custom in Genesis. It was pronounced into a formal law in Deut. The Law, Torah, began with Moses. Therefore, the penalty for the violation of the custom has not yet been written down in Genesis.

As to procreation, yes, we cannot reproduce without God’s grace, however, science has also proven that sex and ejaculation iside the woman’s vagina during her fertile periods will result in pregnancy. God has placed that into natural law and science. That is how it generally works. Now, if you don’t believe in that, then it’s not my problem.

As to support, I am not in favor of government pension in principle. It is good, but it can promote laziness and dependence on government and other people. People should learn to invest, save, and secure their own financial future instead of depending on government dole outs. It fosters as entitlement mentality. This would require a longer discussion, so lets lay off this for now.

 

[Bengoshi]

Jesus practiced religious ritualism.

Yes He did, because Jesus was still himself under law (Gal. 4:4-5).

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

What’s Q.E.D.? Also, what do you mean by nothing I have written negates your comments? Comments to what? My previous post to which you replied is not connected to any issue raised in this thread but was an independent thing that I just wanted to share. Not that I am emotionally attached to CATHOLICISM and Pope Benedict, I just find it interesting for my spirirtual growth and the broadening of my understanding of Christianity as a whole. There is nothing emotional about it. I just truly enjoy the study of theology. I do try to acquire and read as much Systematic Theology books as I can. It’s just an expensive hobby though! For me, the reason why I study theology is for a deeper understanding of the mind and workings of God. No one can fully understand God of course for He is incomparable, unfathomable and infinite.

Just because a book is read in a Seminary does not indubitably imply it to be an intellectual masterpiece, I refer to CATHOLICISM (now read the rest of my comment). You have criticised my posting. I defend it.
Q.E.D. is (sometimes) written at the end of an algebraic equation ‘quad erat **demonstradum’, meaning ‘this is as far as it can be demonstrated’.
Our shared comments seem somewhat similar in this.
Perhaps you are neither attached to CATHOLICISM nor Pope Benedict, perhaps it is to a cloak of victimhood, loco citato.

 

[erikd]

It was a custom in Genesis. It was pronounced into a formal law in Deut. The Law, Torah, began with Moses. Therefore, the penalty for the violation of the custom has not yet been written down in Genesis.

If it was a custom not a law, then why was Onan slain? Seems a little harsh to be slain for not adhering to customs.

As to procreation, yes, we cannot reproduce without God’s grace, however, science has also proven that sex and ejaculation iside the woman’s vagina during her fertile periods will result in pregnancy. God has placed that into natural law and science. That is how it generally works. Now, if you don’t believe in that, then it’s not my problem.

Did I say that I don’t believe that? I am an adult and understand the birds and bees. What I said was that we cannot interfere with what God put into motion. That’s what I was hoping you would respond to.

As to support, I am not in favor of government pension in principle. It is good, but it can promote laziness and dependence on government and other people. People should learn to invest, save, and secure their own financial future instead of depending on government dole outs. It fosters as entitlement mentality. This would require a longer discussion, so lets lay off this for now.

I agree with you in principal, but there’s a lot more to it, and you’re right it would require a lengthy discussion, so I’ll keep it pithy. As our baby boomers age, and live in better health then ever, they will survive to a ripe old age. If they retire at 65 and live until 85, that’s 20 years of inflation, that most people of middle income means cannot save for. That difference is made up by some programs like medicare which is a necessity not necessarily an entitlement. Entitlement society I am not in favor but taking care of our grandparents I am. For that reason, alone, you need more than a one to one ration of deaths to births. This is just simple economics. This phenomena is referred to as “depopulation” and it is a serious concern for anyone with children or grandchildren as this phenomena destabilizes economies of entire countries and deflates their currencies. I tried to keep it pithy, though I would be willing to go into it further if you feel strongly enough to start a thread regarding this issue.

 

[Bengoshi]

Just because a book is read in a Seminary does not indubitably imply it to be an intellectual masterpiece, I refer to CATHOLICISM (now read the rest of my comment). You have criticised my posting. I defend it.
Q.E.D. is (sometimes) written at the end of an algebraic equation ‘quad erat **demonstradum’, meaning ‘this is as far as it can be demonstrated’.
Our shared comments seem somewhat similar in this.
Perhaps you are neither attached to CATHOLICISM nor Pope Benedict, perhaps it is to a cloak of victimhood, loco citato.

Oh, you meant the book CATHOLICISM! Haha! Mea culpa! I hate algebra by the way! Now what do you mean with your last statement “perhaps it is to a cloak of victimhood”?

 

[KathleenGee]

I can’t find the name, but a Protestant historian spent 27 years in research and concluded that the claims of the Catholic Church that the succession to Peter was indeed never broken.

My younger daughter is learning her bible study with a fundamentalist church and she is now going through anti-Catholicism…Last night I pulled out my Vatican II documents, the Universal Catechism, Code of Canon Law, the Vatican II Documents of the Sacred Liturgy, a classic on Butler’s, ‘Lives of the Saints’, the American Standard Bible we use at Mass, the Jerusalem Bible, the Dhouay Rheims Bible of my parents. I have a shelf of encyclicals written by John Paul II from 1991 until his death…I shared with her P Benedict’s ‘The Spirit of the Liturgy’, and this book I am promoting, ‘The Mass of the Early Christians’, one passage containing the Liturgy of St. James, The Lesser, who was head of the Church of Jerusalem.

I didn’t show her materials on the nature and mission of the church, the different forms of spirituality, the various religious orders and congregations, the many different forms of prayer.

If people will take time to review just a few documents, they will see the Word of God permeates the Church, especially our Sunday Mass.

I put Vatican II on top because it represents the Pope and the communion of Bishops, successors to the Apostles from the entire world…and the perspective in which to reflect on Scripture in the times we live today.

The Bible is open to interpretation and the misunderstanding of just one word brings about a different message that can fracture the Body of Christ, His Church.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

**As Dokimas wrote: ** *How do you know, [Protestant, that] there are 66 books in the Bible? The Bible doesn’t say that. Indeed the Bible does not tell you which Books belong in the Bible. You are using other human sources to base your belief on, and that is ok as long as you can trust those sources.

Truth and knowledge are found in the scriptures, but not complete truth or knowledge. That is why God gave us his Church. The Bible cannot be the complete source of our faith.
It must be a combination of these two things. Jesus said he would build his Church; it is the Church that has his blessing and the fulness of truth in the scriptures. The Church through the Holy Spirit has told us which sacred writings are scripture and which ones that are not.*​

Well, for sure, a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian who is “Bible-believing” has more Bible in which to believe! he believes in all of the Holy Scripture that the Universal Church over the ages has acknowledged as revealed, apart from some slight differences over the inclusion of a few contested books (e.g., 3rd and even 4th Maccabees). Protestants like to winnow down what they believe, to the point of following unbelieving, Christ-denying Jews as to what belongs in the Old Testament. Lutherans and Anglicans, if they are geunuine, believe more, Baptists believe so little that they hover on being Muslims by comparison.

A Catholic or an Orthodox believes in all of the Bible of the Church of the ages. A sectarian believes in a lot less than that. A Lutheran or Anglican equivocates by placing some of the Old Testament into a supplement between Testaments or as an anti-climactic end to the Bible as a published document for him.

Jerry Parker

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Oh, you meant the book CATHOLICISM! Haha! Mea culpa! I hate algebra by the way! Now what do you mean with your last statement “perhaps it is to a cloak of victimhood”?

Throughout your postings I am aware of the *leitmotif *suggestion of your being on the back foot (a common trait in Western modern day youth: Blaming another for one’s state of mind).

                                              AHIMSA

 

[Bengoshi]

Throughout your postings I am aware of the *leitmotif *suggestion of your being on the back foot (a common trait in Western modern day youth: Blaming another for one’s state of mind).

                                              AHIMSA

By the way, I am not a western modern day youth. I’m not even western!

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

By the way, I am not a western modern day youth. I’m not even western!

Not a Western modern day youth? Who said you are?

(A brilliant example of how text can be open to interpretation.)

 

[Bengoshi]

Not a Western modern day youth? Who said you are?

(A brilliant example of how text can be open to interpretation.)

The reason is that you use a lot of jargon without making sure that your interlocutor understands the same. Can’t you just use plain English instead of using a lot of foreign words and phrases. At least explain/define them when you use them. There is no need to sound overly scholarly here. I never said that I fully understood your post. And id I say that you said I was a western modern day youth? I just wanted to clarilfy that in advance. Remember, there are other people reading this thread other than us.

 

[luckyfredsdad]

I can’t find the name, but a Protestant historian spent 27 years in research and concluded that the claims of the Catholic Church that the succession to Peter was indeed never broken.

**Madam, what has a protestant historian got to do with the matter at hand? He is entitled to an opinion, just as you or I am, but he has to answer the questions put above, just where in Scripture does Peter’s prerogatives go beyond those of the other Apostles ? Where in scripture does Peter’s ,‘Succession,’ extend to the Bishop of Rome or his successors?
Where in Scripture or Holy Tradition is the Bishop of Rome or the Papacy even mentioned? In this latter case he is simply mentioned as a Bishop of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church doing his service as a diocesan bishop, nothing more!
**
**In fact they are not mentioned. If your Protestant scholar has studied the early fathers of the first three or four Centuries and not learned that the early fathers have,in the main, no idea , nor are remotely conscious, as far as I can see, of the prerogatives of the papacy he,s wasting your time! The Bishop of Rome has his authority from two sources, the State, in that the Emperor’s [Gratian and the Valentinians mainly,] gave him power and he was dependent on the state police to enforce his will. Secondly, the Church through the Ecumenicl Councils made him Patriarch of the West and even this was probably at the Emperor’s behest. But these were a result of his being the Emperors parish priest not of Revelation, Scripture or Tradition! In fact the Ecumenical fathers in Council gave the Bishop of Constantinople, [New Rome,] the same priviliges as they gave the Bishop of Rome,[Old Rome]. The difference being that Old Rome’s commission had an earlier date on it!
**

**I commend you for your study of your Church’s teaching, but, ‘Vatican Two Documents,’ and Encyclicals written by various luminaries of your Church in modern times are hardly evidence, for the questions at hand! It is like asking the polis to be the judges in their own courts! As Our Saviour Christ Himself says," IF I BEAR WITNESS TO MYSELF, MY TESTIMONY IS NOT TRUE"!!

As Paul shows us constantly,after Christ 's Revelation, Tradition through the Holy Ghost and the Councils is our strength. The Deposit of Faith is neither to be increased nor diminished and that is what Rome has done, tampered with the Deposit!
**

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The reason is that you use a lot of jargon without making sure that your interlocutor understands the same. Can’t you just use plain English instead of using a lot of foreign words and phrases. At least explain/define them when you use them. There is no need to sound overly scholarly here. I never said that I fully understood your post. And id I say that you said I was a western modern day youth? I just wanted to clarilfy that in advance. Remember, there are other people reading this thread other than us.

The Bible is written in over 15 languages (including dialects), and many cultures and various world-views; and yet a Protestant believes he/she can pick it up and understand exactly what is being said. (No, I’m not claiming you as a Fundamentalist / Evangelical Protestant who lives in a cloud of sola scriptura).
The thread of the initial preposition has not been lost - for the benefit of many perhaps some of the absurdities have been emphasized. Thank you.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Yes we can, the Holy Spirit is our guide we trust the translation team to give us a good edition to read and most choose ones we like such as the NLT which puts much of the terms into a common use language. Then when we read it in that language we know we glean from it the teachings of God. We are to have the faith of a child and pure faith, strong faith above all considerations and that is very simple: love and trust in the Lord like a child does to His parents and the rest works itself out.

Its true I do listen to teachers and those strong in faith but they are guides placed her for their Calling by God not the final authority I listen to, that is the Holy Spirit that flows within me and who grants me my authority.

What weak faith to think God cannot and would not create Protestants for His ways are mysterious and His plans for us sometimes obscured but the end is His will. Another once thought they knew more than than God ,Lucifer, and we know what his fate was.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Yes we can, the Holy Spirit is our guide we trust the translation team to give us a good edition to read and most choose ones we like such as the NLT which puts much of the terms into a common use language. Then when we read it in that language we know we glean from it the teachings of God. We are to have the faith of a child and pure faith, strong faith above all considerations and that is very simple: love and trust in the Lord like a child does to His parents and the rest works itself out.

Its true I do listen to teachers and those strong in faith but they are guides placed her for their Calling by God not the final authority I listen to, that is the Holy Spirit that flows within me and who grants me my authority.

What weak faith to think God cannot and would not create Protestants for His ways are mysterious and His plans for us sometimes obscured but the end is His will. Another once thought they knew more than than God ,Lucifer, and we know what his fate was.

Scating on thin ice setting your own opinion as final authority! Reading *‘the translation *(you) *like…then we know we glean from it the teachings of God’ *putting your aesthetic taste above all else, then turning to the Lord. The Lord is given second fiddle!You ‘listen to teachers …but **they are guides’, what *‘flows within me…grants me my authority’. * Your authority is your own opinion, what ‘feels’ right to you.
And then you have justification? If I do not agree with you I am on the side of Lucifer.
Egocentric flirtation in which God is seen as no more than a prop to your own self agrandizement and the Holy Spirit, self righteousness (that which gives you your authority): Your ego craving a God for its own justification.

 

[greggy53]

What weak faith to think God cannot and would not create Protestants for His ways are mysterious and His plans for us sometimes obscured but the end is His will. Another once thought they knew more than than God ,Lucifer, and we know what his fate was.

We know that God often makes good things come from the bad things that happen in our lives. Perhaps it is this way with the so- called reformation. It was a bad thing to say the least, but perhaps some good may fow from it. I don’t think that is out of the question.

 

[Zundrah]

Once Protestants come into the Catholic Church, they then realize how much of Holy Scriptures is synthesized throughout our entire faith.

Yes… herersy. That is the scripture you use in your “faith”!

 

[greggy53]

Yes… herersy. That is the scripture you use in your “faith”!

Aw come on you know what she was saying…And you are saying that the Church that Jesus established was heretical for 1500 years?

 

[jake23]

Yes we can, the Holy Spirit is our guide we trust the translation team to give us a good edition to read and most choose ones we like such as the NLT which puts much of the terms into a common use language. Then when we read it in that language we know we glean from it the teachings of God. We are to have the faith of a child and pure faith, strong faith above all considerations and that is very simple: love and trust in the Lord like a child does to His parents and the rest works itself out.

Its true I do listen to teachers and those strong in faith but they are guides placed her for their Calling by God not the final authority I listen to, that is the Holy Spirit that flows within me and who grants me my authority.

What weak faith to think God cannot and would not create Protestants for His ways are mysterious and His plans for us sometimes obscured but the end is His will. Another once thought they knew more than than God ,Lucifer, and we know what his fate was.

We can be assure this a person with a great lack of education and truth! seriousely far off!

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Jake,

**You wrote: ** *We can be assure this a person with a great lack of education and truth! seriousely far off! *​

Just a word to the wise, fellow Cathlic (as I hope that you are or become) when accusing someone to be more literate: spell and conjugate correctly yourself and link phrases and clauses together with the right connector words. Probably, though, you only had needed to proof-read your contribution! You should have written in correct English: We can be assured that this **is **a person with a great lack of education and of truth! seriously far off!.

More in humour than in hubris, Jerry Parker