Protestants question about Purgatory

[Taestron]

pablope;9514067:

From: catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences

If we don’t know how long: Why could an act gain 300 days of indulgence? What is the formula to calculate days, and time for that matter?

If only God knows the efficacy of an indulgence or if it is received at all: Why have it into practice?

Merits… If Christ’s merits are infinite, Why do we need to get merits from anyone else?

And since Christ’s merits compromise “most” of them, How do we know it is most? Are Christ’s 51%, 60%? And How exactly do we measure the merits of each and who is keeping the books on the Treasury? And more importantly, How? And are there checks and balances on the merits? How are they attributed to each person in the living world and in the non-living world?

How do we determine temporary penalties?

Thanks,

Jose

To add my own questions. I’m not sure I understand what a temporary penalty of sin actually is. I believe it was Anselm who said that a sin against an infinite God puts us in an infinite debt to God. Does it make sense to say that Christ takes away the infinite penalty for sin but leaves the temporal? I cannot think of what this would mean.

Even if this is the case, I have some questions about the implementation of the doctrine. Of course I don’t think I am perfect now, but it would seem the very moment I behold God, I would lose all the remaining vestiges of sin and its consequences; I cannot think of a purgatory that prevents me from seeing God until I am completely cleansed and maintains the claim that Christ paid the penalty for sin. So if purgatory does exist it would be instantaneous, and wouldn’t matter how many indulgences I had been granted, as far a time is concerned. But that still means that the amount of suffering might be able to be reduced. However, how is it that we earn indulgences? Is it not by our suffering here on earth? Then if we suffer, why is it that we need the Church to grant us indulgences; wouldn’t God already see our suffering and apply it to our credit? Or if the Church has the power to grant indulgences, then why not use the merit of Christ to grant every Christian a plenary indulgence?

 

[BettyBoop416]

I’ve had non-Catholic friends ask me about Purgatory too. I guess my inability to give them a satisfactory answer is because I, myself, am very skeptical about this teaching.

I think it might be a mistake to talk about being worthy. Ask him instead, if he is now perfect and without sin and without any desire to sin. Then ask him if those in heaven are perfect and without sin and without any desire to sin. Then ask him how those who were imperfect and sinful and with desire to sin became changed so that they could enter heaven.

I agree that very few of us are perfect and without sin. I also agree that there might possibly be some process by which we are made “acceptable” for admission into Paradise. But it’s a huge leap from there to the Church’s teaching regarding Purgatory - which impresses me as being nothing more than someone’s best guess about what happens.

 

[Porknpie]

I believe that for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). I believe that Christians, when they die, go immediately to paradise and are in the presence of Jesus. Paradise is the intermediate state where those who died in Christ await the resurrection. Technically speaking, heaven is a state that awaits for us only after the resurrection and final judgement.

Let’s actually read 2 Corinthians chapter 5:6-10. You are quoting line 8 in error. The scripture does not say that when we die we will be immediately in heaven. We first come to the judgement seat of Christ ( and from there, hell, purgatory or heaven based on what we did in the body).

6* So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
7for we walk by faith, not by sight.
8Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord.
9Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.
10For we must all appear* before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

See the previous link to a discussion on paradise and heaven. Jesus opened the gates of heaven after preaching to the dead immediately after his death. The gates of heaven are definitely open. Read the Book of Revelation too.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=336998

 

[snarflemike]

“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”.

Actually this is not found in the bible.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Actually this is not found in the bible.

Perhaps this is the quote being referred to:

Let’s actually read 2 Corinthians chapter 5:6-10. You are quoting line 8 in error. The scripture does not say that when we die we will be immediately in heaven. We first come to the judgement seat of Christ ( and from there, hell, purgatory or heaven based on what we did in the body).

6* So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
7for we walk by faith, not by sight.
8Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord.
9Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.
10For we must all appear* before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

 

[taylormcbee]

This can be a sticky issue. Here’s questions I have gotten:

1. Where does Jesus talk about Purgatory?
2. Where does Jesus talk about praying for the dead?
3. Jesus abolished the “Old Law”, so the OT doesn’t apply.
4. 2nd Maccabees isn’t even in the Bible. Even if it were; see no. 3.

Purgatory is a toughie… I need answers on refuting these, myself. I’ll be watching this thread very closely. Thank you for posting this thread!

2nd Maccabees is in the catholic bible Martin Luther took it out of the protestant bible to support his stance, he wanted to take out a lot of things, but at the risk of accidentally de railing the thread, ill just say. In response to number 3 Jesus said something to the effect of , Don’t think i came to abolish the law but i came to fulfill it .

 

[rinnie]

This can be a sticky issue. Here’s questions I have gotten:

1. Where does Jesus talk about Purgatory?
2. Where does Jesus talk about praying for the dead?
3. Jesus abolished the “Old Law”, so the OT doesn’t apply.
4. 2nd Maccabees isn’t even in the Bible. Even if it were; see no. 3.

Purgatory is a toughie… I need answers on refuting these, myself. I’ll be watching this thread very closely. Thank you for posting this thread!

Sure Jesus said there is a FINAL CLEANSING. How can a final cleaning be here. Unless we go to confession, and never sin again. So I personally don’t see many who do that. But it is posible. Because we are called to be Christlike and forgo our sin. And Christ did make it possible. There were many Saints on this earth.

next try Matt. 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation AFTER expiation. We know ther is no penny to be paid in heaen, and no liveration from hell.

Now go back to Luke. The severity of the Judge in the parable is a WARNING of the fate of unrepentant sinners in the coming judgment by God.

Matt. 12:32 In this AGE or the AGE TO COME. Now how can there be forgivenss in hell? There isn’t. How can you need forgivenss in heaven? You Can’t. You must be completely free from sin. So where is this STATE or place that it comes from? But yet the scriptures state only if you deny GOD can you not be forgiven in the AGE GO COME. Where is the AGE TO COME?

 

[Publisher]

Actually this is not found in the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)

 

[JonNC]

=pablope;9514067]

I think we agree on that. Even the CC has not defined how it takes place, as far as I know…it just takes place and we call it Purgatory.

Maybe the understanding of it has evolved into a “place” or “where”…

Actually, that was the medieval understanding that the reformers balked at. A major thrust of the 95 Theses.

From the link you provided before…if I recall correctly, it was a “place” issue, mainly…and the selling of indulgences…but indulgences are still a CC teaching. The “practice” has been refined.

Yeah, its still a troubling doctrine for us.

Anyway, do you see any problem with offering masses and prayers for the dead?

Prayers for the dead, no. The mass (Eucharist), however, seems directed at those who aprticipate in His body and blood - eat and drink for the remission of sins.

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)

Per posted #22 Catholics don’t disagree but 5:8 can not be CHANGED to read that being absent from the body is to be with the Lord. That ignores 5:10 and that judgment occurs after you leave the body.

 

[snarflemike]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)

But that’s not what you quoted the first time.

I would rather be absent from work and present in Hawaii, but that doesn’t mean that the minute I leave work I’m in Hawaii (darn!).

 

[KathleenGee]

The problem is our own desire to want to sin.

This old priest in the confessional told me if we just accept the crosses Christ gives us every day, and do what we are supposed to do every day…with pure love of God…we will go straight to heaven without purgatory.

There are many different levels of purgation. But the grace and consolation of being in purgatory is that you can see God…you have the Beatific Vision. So once you have no more desire to sin…and have desire now totally only for the Lord…this desire in union with Him…encloses you in Him.

 

[crazzeto]

A need for purgation, for entering Heaven. This occurs at the moment of death by the grace of God. If I can say that, then ok, as far as I’m concerned.

This seemed to be the biggest complaint of the Lutheran reformers.

Agreeable, to me. Again, I think it is/was the state/place issue, the indulgences and masses for the dead that Lutherans really have/had a problem with.

Jon

Do Lutherans of your persuation still take a dim view of the Communion of Saints? I beleive that your last point could be addressed simply, if prayer can help convert here on Earth and bring one closer to God, then certainly prayer and pious acts can shorten the time of purgation after death can it not?

 

[JonNC]

Do Lutherans of your persuation still take a dim view of the Communion of Saints?

Lutherans of any persuasion should not take a dim view of the Communion of Saints.

I beleive that your last point could be addressed simply, if prayer can help convert here on Earth and bring one closer to God, then certainly prayer and pious acts can shorten the** time of purgation **after death can it not?

I’m sorry, crazzeto, please forgive me because that word “time” gets in the way, from my POV. When you say “time in Purgatory”, what exactly is your understanding? I don’t want to respond without being clear as to what you mean.

I sort of take the Luther view, that a prayer along the lines of, *Dear Father in Heaven for Jesus’ sake, if this our departed loved one is in a condition accessible to mercy, we pray that you would be merciful and gracious to him/her,*is appropriate. It is my hope that our prayers for loved ones who die, coupled with the prayers of the saints in Heaven, implore God to mercy and Grace, but I don’t believe it speeds up the process in any way we can understand.

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The problem is our own desire to want to sin.

Very wise words!

This old priest in the confessional told me if we just accept the crosses Christ gives us every day, and do what we are supposed to do every day…with pure love of God…we will go straight to heaven without purgatory.

Again, very wise words! Reminds me of Brother Lawrence

There are many different levels of purgation. But the grace and consolation of being in purgatory is that you can see God…you have the Beatific Vision. So once you have no more desire to sin…and have desire now totally only for the Lord…this desire in union with Him…encloses you in Him.

Here I’m lost

What are these levels and how exactly we know them?

How can we desire to sin after death?

Thanks,

Jose

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Do Lutherans of your persuation still take a dim view of the Communion of Saints? I beleive that your last point could be addressed simply, if prayer can help convert here on Earth and bring one closer to God, then certainly prayer and pious acts can shorten the time of purgation after death can it not?

How is this time measured?

Thanks,

Jose

 

[KathleenGee]

‘Levels’ refer to the levels of the desire to keep on sinning.

There is such a thing as habitual sin…the good side of it is that it keeps us humble, knowing we cannot save ourselves.

It is said that it is our faults that lead us to sin. So in working for our salvation, it helps alot to do the best we can be and do every day…and to work on developing our conscience, fine tuning it.

So this also represents why Our Lord said there is enough problems in one day.

Another thing…one can sin more out of weakness but not deliberate desire…it is said the just man sins 7 times a day. There is less offense to God when we do things out of weakness than deliberate. We are sinners and all we can do is trust in His mercy. And we cannot imagine just how much the presence of Original Sin warped the entire universe…and how the Resurrected Lord has transcended time and space, and is calling ALL men up to Himself.

The other awareness I have come to in regards to my own sinfulness and habitual sin is to claim the Lord over all of me that is in habitual sin, to stand in the place in the place of habits and faults – where we go over our own natural boundaries of who we really are — to be who we are not…no matter how small the area…or do or take something in excess of what we truly need…faults…this is how we can go from stepping outside our natural boundaries to go into the areas of sin…gluttony, sloth, envy, pride, jealousy, anger, etc…

So it is said the great wisdom is in knowing one’s self…especially from a Christian perspective to know one’s true self as the Lord has called us to be…and to stay with Him.

Calling on the Lord as our only justification is very good practice…He atoning for our sins…for what we have done, or did not do but should have, or simply omitting.

So, it all depends on what part of you needs more of redemption of Christ. Subsequently, conversion and conformity to Christ is a life long journey.

 

[pablope]

Actually, that was the medieval understanding that the reformers balked at. A major thrust of the 95 Theses.

Hi, JOn…just thinking about this…I think it stems of what our minds associate it with.

When Church says it is a “process”…our feeble and simple minds and thoughts associate the “process” with time…and a place…because that is what we were conditioned to think of what a “process” is…an orderly procedure…that is called the process of purgation.

Yeah, its still a troubling doctrine for us.

 

[pablope]

Lutherans of any persuasion should not take a dim view of the Communion of Saints.

I’m sorry, crazzeto, please forgive me because that word “time” gets in the way, from my POV. When you say “time in Purgatory”, what exactly is your understanding? I don’t want to respond without being clear as to what you mean.

Jon

As I said previously, I think when the word “process” of purgation is mentioned…our feeble and simple thinking associate the process with “time”…for we know that a process takes time.

Though of courese, we leave that process and time to God…since God is beyond time…

 

[JonNC]

As I said previously, I think when the word “process” of purgation is mentioned…our feeble and simple thinking associate the process with “time”…for we know that a process takes time.

Though of courese, we leave that process and time to God…since God is beyond time…

Then, Paul, how does the Church determine the impact of indugences an masses for the dead?

Jon