- Status
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Sorry…missed one comment…how after death?..
Thing is when we believe in Christ and draw on His eternal life…we are already living eternal life now through the resurrected Lord.
When we ‘die’, we simply pass from this type of existence where we have physical boundaries to another level of existence…the transcendent…the mystical…and we continue where we left off…either seeking the Lord or rejecting Him.
I am referring to baptized Christians in this context.
Thing is when we believe in Christ and draw on His eternal life…we are already living eternal life now through the resurrected Lord.
When we ‘die’, we simply pass from this type of existence where we have physical boundaries to another level of existence…the transcendent…the mystical…and we continue where we left off…either seeking the Lord or rejecting Him.
I am referring to baptized Christians in this context.
P
pablope
Guest
Hi, Jon…as far as I know…the Church has not defined this…leaving it to the mercy and justice of God.
P
pablope
Guest
Thanks for the link…i will reread this again…
Hmmm…this may a misconception on your part…when the Mass if offered…since in itself is the highest form of prayer…it is offered for the souls in purgatory…the intention of it…and receiving the body is still for us…those present in the Mass.
Well, when you say "instant’…that still denotes time, isn’t it?
Unless you mean, at the time of death…there is the instance of immediate judgement…and the need for cleansing or purgation as judged by Christ…it happens…but we do not know the time and how.
Sure…I agree…and unless you want to go into the realm of private revelation…
and also with you…Pablo
K
KathleenGee
Guest
It is the body that leads us to sin, and sin leads us to death.
When the body dies, it can no longer sin…but sin distorts and affects the soul, and depending on the degree of sin, it can either separate us from God for the time of purgation, or the serious, deliberate and mortal sin, through our free consent and will, can permanently sever us from God.
Also, when we draw on the Eucharist, Our Lord says we inherit eternal life…and when we draw on the Lord in grace, we are already connected to the Risen Lord who broke the power of death and time, because we are now dead to ourselves, but alive in Christ…in the Risen, Glorious Christ.
We are alive in Christ Who lives outside of time…God created time, God created nature and natural law, and He respects His own handiwork, including natural law.
The beauty of living in the Risen Lord is that we are now living in eternal time, and our livelihood now comes from Him.
Thus when we die in the Lord, death has no string…we have only really died just once…when we died to ourselves and allowed the life of the Lord to come live within us and make us new sons and daughters of the Lord.
Grace and virtue cannot be measured in human terms. Faith and life in God is we entering into mystery. The Church’s measurement of indulgences is for man, but in them reflect the weight of sacrifice a penitent performs. But how they transfer into the Lord’s meaurements are more reflective our relationship or lack of with Him.
I don’t or never have been bogged down by looking at so many days of this and that I will be freed from purgatory…but instead…in this context only, I keep my eyes on the Lord.
Have I looked elsewhere and had fears about my salvation? Yes…but I have never had any scruples about days of indulgences…but kept my eyes on Him.
When the body dies, it can no longer sin…but sin distorts and affects the soul, and depending on the degree of sin, it can either separate us from God for the time of purgation, or the serious, deliberate and mortal sin, through our free consent and will, can permanently sever us from God.
Also, when we draw on the Eucharist, Our Lord says we inherit eternal life…and when we draw on the Lord in grace, we are already connected to the Risen Lord who broke the power of death and time, because we are now dead to ourselves, but alive in Christ…in the Risen, Glorious Christ.
We are alive in Christ Who lives outside of time…God created time, God created nature and natural law, and He respects His own handiwork, including natural law.
The beauty of living in the Risen Lord is that we are now living in eternal time, and our livelihood now comes from Him.
Thus when we die in the Lord, death has no string…we have only really died just once…when we died to ourselves and allowed the life of the Lord to come live within us and make us new sons and daughters of the Lord.
Grace and virtue cannot be measured in human terms. Faith and life in God is we entering into mystery. The Church’s measurement of indulgences is for man, but in them reflect the weight of sacrifice a penitent performs. But how they transfer into the Lord’s meaurements are more reflective our relationship or lack of with Him.
I don’t or never have been bogged down by looking at so many days of this and that I will be freed from purgatory…but instead…in this context only, I keep my eyes on the Lord.
Have I looked elsewhere and had fears about my salvation? Yes…but I have never had any scruples about days of indulgences…but kept my eyes on Him.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Blessings, Jon!
I was actually addressing Isaiah…
It can be said that John’s Rev. 22 are referring to the imagery of the Mass. I am so slow in getting through my liturgy materials. But the more I read about the Mass, the more profound I have of its great work of salvation, and as the final fulfillment of all the words of Scripture.
In speaking of time, I am studying Pope Benedict’s ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’. In it, he states that Christ Himself came at a most particular time…when His Divine Mission would not only speak to believers, but to those who lived in His time, and to all of mankind in history.
Considering the Covenant of the Blood, we first recall Melchizedek’s offering bread and wine as sacrificial gifts rather than the blood of goats, rams, and lamb. He prophecizes of the day that will come when we will have the perfect, perpetual sacrifice.
And prior to this, we also recall Abraham who took Isaac to be sacrificed, but the Angel of the Lord stopped him, and then showed him a ram that was stuck in a bush and directed Abraham to sacrifice this ram instead.
We know about how in Exodus the Lord instructed Moses the daily sacrifice, the temple, the inner sanctuary where only the High Priest could enter once a year to sprinkle the blood of the lamb on the altar to atone for the sins of the Lord’s people. And of course, we remember that the Lord entered Jerusalem during the week of the Passover up to Holy Thursday. Jesus provided bread and wine, but no sacrificial lamb.
Jesus came into this world during the Constellation of Aries – of the Ram, that can also be referred to as the Lamb. And after 40 days…recalling the time of the Passover, Jesus ascended into heaven…He now the Sacrificial Lamb, and likewise, the Perfect High Priest, Who passes through the gate into the sacred heavenly altar, standing at the altar of the Father, wounded but triumphant, and risen and glorified.
The Passover and the Day of Atonement are fulfilled in Christ’s death and in His resurrection and glorious ascension into heaven. It is this same Glorified Lamb that is present in the Eucharist at the altar at Mass.
The greatest act on earth we can do as believers is to stand at Mass unified with the Lord in heaven, triumphant and glorious, united in eternal union that transcends everything of this world. We may appear as if we are standing in our pews looking at the altar. But it is the Holy Spirit Who is carrying us as a congregation forward and ever closer to our final union with the Lord in heaven.
This is a most tremendous grace to draw on to fill our souls, to offer for others who are suffering, who passed on, or have lost their faith…drawing on the merits of the Mass.
Scott Hahn called the Mass the ‘nuclear bomb’ so to speak against evil in this world.
We will never know the value of suffering in this life or the value of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass until the next life. The Lord told Peter and the Apostles that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. We must thank the Lord that He has inspired His ministers to provide us indulgences, penances to draw on the great graces and life of the Mass to bring to those who have passed on, and who are in need of our prayers as well.
I was actually addressing Isaiah…
It can be said that John’s Rev. 22 are referring to the imagery of the Mass. I am so slow in getting through my liturgy materials. But the more I read about the Mass, the more profound I have of its great work of salvation, and as the final fulfillment of all the words of Scripture.
In speaking of time, I am studying Pope Benedict’s ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’. In it, he states that Christ Himself came at a most particular time…when His Divine Mission would not only speak to believers, but to those who lived in His time, and to all of mankind in history.
Considering the Covenant of the Blood, we first recall Melchizedek’s offering bread and wine as sacrificial gifts rather than the blood of goats, rams, and lamb. He prophecizes of the day that will come when we will have the perfect, perpetual sacrifice.
And prior to this, we also recall Abraham who took Isaac to be sacrificed, but the Angel of the Lord stopped him, and then showed him a ram that was stuck in a bush and directed Abraham to sacrifice this ram instead.
We know about how in Exodus the Lord instructed Moses the daily sacrifice, the temple, the inner sanctuary where only the High Priest could enter once a year to sprinkle the blood of the lamb on the altar to atone for the sins of the Lord’s people. And of course, we remember that the Lord entered Jerusalem during the week of the Passover up to Holy Thursday. Jesus provided bread and wine, but no sacrificial lamb.
Jesus came into this world during the Constellation of Aries – of the Ram, that can also be referred to as the Lamb. And after 40 days…recalling the time of the Passover, Jesus ascended into heaven…He now the Sacrificial Lamb, and likewise, the Perfect High Priest, Who passes through the gate into the sacred heavenly altar, standing at the altar of the Father, wounded but triumphant, and risen and glorified.
The Passover and the Day of Atonement are fulfilled in Christ’s death and in His resurrection and glorious ascension into heaven. It is this same Glorified Lamb that is present in the Eucharist at the altar at Mass.
The greatest act on earth we can do as believers is to stand at Mass unified with the Lord in heaven, triumphant and glorious, united in eternal union that transcends everything of this world. We may appear as if we are standing in our pews looking at the altar. But it is the Holy Spirit Who is carrying us as a congregation forward and ever closer to our final union with the Lord in heaven.
This is a most tremendous grace to draw on to fill our souls, to offer for others who are suffering, who passed on, or have lost their faith…drawing on the merits of the Mass.
Scott Hahn called the Mass the ‘nuclear bomb’ so to speak against evil in this world.
We will never know the value of suffering in this life or the value of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass until the next life. The Lord told Peter and the Apostles that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. We must thank the Lord that He has inspired His ministers to provide us indulgences, penances to draw on the great graces and life of the Mass to bring to those who have passed on, and who are in need of our prayers as well.
P
Porknpie
Guest
Highly recommend Michael Barber’s book on Revelation as he goes line by line, highlighting the imagery of the Mass in Revelation. If you come from a faith that does not believe in Christs real presence in the Eucharist (or Lord’s Supper for you Lutheran’s), there is enough here seriously question where you are currently going to church. IMHO. :compcoff:
amazon.com/gp/product/193101826X/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i02
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
I have to admit, I really enjoy the spirituality of your words. Thanks for your time.
I agree with your last paragraph and have no problems leaving it a mystery, because that is what it is.
However, I disagree in our attempt to understand this mystery beyond it being a process of Salvation and work from our Lord in perfecting us.
God Bless you,
Jose
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Jose…
But God has called us to participate in the Divine mysteries for our salvation along with the communion of the faithful.
We can have Bible groups and fellowships and pick certain passages upon which to reflect.
But in the Mass, something else is happening. We are fulfilling Christ’s Covenant of the Blood by our participation. When we go to Mass, we are actually entering into the living presence of God Himself on the altar of heaven, a dynamic is happening in that we are also going back to the Old Testament and witnessing again, as if in an arena, of all the events leading up to the time of Our Lord, Who came at the appointed time, Whose apostles, as they themselves claim, were chosen even before they met Christ.
When we attend Mass, we are entering into the mystery of sacred space and time. We are being united with the ancient Jews of faith, as well being witness to those who failed in faith. We are present in contemporary time to Jesus and His time when He preached on earth and performed miracles, and taught us life lessons both for this life below as well as the means to gaining eternal life through His sacred bread.
When we go to Mass, we are literally walking into and participating in the presence of the Living God – His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. The Masses we attend, and fully incorporate, the more sanctified we become.
You just cannot compare a Protestant service to the Mass.
But God has called us to participate in the Divine mysteries for our salvation along with the communion of the faithful.
We can have Bible groups and fellowships and pick certain passages upon which to reflect.
But in the Mass, something else is happening. We are fulfilling Christ’s Covenant of the Blood by our participation. When we go to Mass, we are actually entering into the living presence of God Himself on the altar of heaven, a dynamic is happening in that we are also going back to the Old Testament and witnessing again, as if in an arena, of all the events leading up to the time of Our Lord, Who came at the appointed time, Whose apostles, as they themselves claim, were chosen even before they met Christ.
When we attend Mass, we are entering into the mystery of sacred space and time. We are being united with the ancient Jews of faith, as well being witness to those who failed in faith. We are present in contemporary time to Jesus and His time when He preached on earth and performed miracles, and taught us life lessons both for this life below as well as the means to gaining eternal life through His sacred bread.
When we go to Mass, we are literally walking into and participating in the presence of the Living God – His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. The Masses we attend, and fully incorporate, the more sanctified we become.
You just cannot compare a Protestant service to the Mass.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Whoo…I mean to say, thank you Isaiah…the name of my favorite OT prophet…I have been out at work in the field for over 24 hours, am on call waiting for call…before I go rest…I scrolled back too fast and missed your name correctly.
Sorry!
Sorry!
S
studychristian
Guest
I am not Catholic, but the idea of Purgatory does make sense. I don’t get the idea of praying for others to get out of there. This is probably not the Catholioc idea of Purgatory but essentially I think only those who have addictions that weren’t beaten by the time of death go to Purgatory.
F
ForeverGrace
Guest
There is no purgatory. Scripture says that Jesus died for my sins. Am I supposed to believe there is some sin, His precious blood did not cover?
PLUS, the Book of Tobit (holy scripture for Catholics) says I can pay my way out by giving enough alms. And Father Stravinskas reaffirmed it. He said “Pay me now or Pay me later”.
Nope, there is no toll bridge for heaven. Jesus completely paid my way home.
PLUS, the Book of Tobit (holy scripture for Catholics) says I can pay my way out by giving enough alms. And Father Stravinskas reaffirmed it. He said “Pay me now or Pay me later”.
Nope, there is no toll bridge for heaven. Jesus completely paid my way home.
S
studychristian
Guest
I don’t fully understand the Catholic belief when it comes to Purgatory, but Purgatory seems logicial in a sense that not all people go there, in my opinion those who died with addictions that weren’t beaten go there to overcome those addictions. I think Purgatory is about getting rid of errors that needed fix, not getting rid of sin, I believe His death on the cross payed for the sins of those who accept Him.
P
pablope
Guest
From post #9:
t isn’t just Christ suffering. It’s Christ suffering lived out in us and through us for our sake and for those around us, but then as charity flowers and becomes complete and perfect in us, love covers a multitude of sins. Why? Because Christ’s love wasn’t enough, He didn’t suffer long enough? No, because His suffering and His redemption having been finished and accomplished by the Holy Spirit, the third forgotten Person of the Trinity, applied in us who are mystical members of His mystical body.
The essence of Christianity is Christ reproducing His life, His suffering, His death and then His resurrection in glory in us. That is the essence of Christianity…This is why purgatory is so hard for us to understand. We don’t want to carry the cross. We want to make an optional clause in our contract with Christ. “If you want to be my disciple, you’ve got to carry the cross. You’ve got to die to self.”
Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.
F
ForeverGrace
Guest
I respect what you believe. Addiction is a physical illness that results in unacceptable behavior and that behavior is sinful.
I don’t believe we need to get a last shower before coming into the presence of our Savior. First of all, he does not say that in the scriptures, and second a person either has sin or they don’t.
Since I’m a reformed believer, that means that I don’t hold that we have an absolutely free will. Scripture says there is none righteous, no not one.
IF there weren’t all of these ‘methods’ ( for lack of a better word) to escape purgatory, I might be convinced, but Jesus does not make people pay to get out of jail. Nope, that’s Monopoly.
God Bless friend.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, Forevergrace…there is purgatory…and the other problem is that your form of Christian has no religion of the communion of saints. So many fundamentalists can only refer back to Old Testament faithful figures.
But you are not aware of any actual saints down through the ages…only those mentioned in The Epistles…and a bishop referred to by Christ, the actual Voice of Revelations…though it was penned by St. John the Evangelist.
After that, there is no witness of faith by believers in fundamentalism to exhort and teach the faithful as the faith of Christ inculturates and expands into human history. Nothing. There are those preachers who who are not telling you the truth of Catholicism…Why the need? So much they teach is wrong.
To go straight to heaven with the continued desire to sin is an injustice and affront to God. I do not see it intentional by any fundamentalist…but in heaven there is no sin.
Purgatory, Heaven, Hell…are states of being…Where and how you die continues on…but as your body is now dead…your trial is over. Because the body leads you to sin. The wages of sin is death.
Going to regular confession helps us refine our conscience and guide us to continue to develop a greater conscience to know ourselves and weaknesses, and to avoid near occasions of sins.
We have had many saints all down the ages who have had mystical experiences or theological insights that are true revelations of the Holy Spirit. Many of them have spoken of purgatory.
If you pick up your cross daily in love of Christ, and are in union with God and His love throughout the day, every day, you will go straight to heaven. There was a young mother who died so many years back. She was no saint, but an ordinary woman. Parishioners told the pastor at the funeral that they sensed she went straight to heaven.
You don’t have to be a canonized saint to go to heaven. And St. Paul talks of the fire one must pass to have the desire of ALL sin removed before entering heaven. He was given a glimpse of heaven, and said we cannot believe what awaits us for those who endure. St. Thomas Aquinas was taken up to heaven, and said all his works were as straw.
So the next life…in all its dimensions, is the fulfillment of all the virtues of Jesus Christ, His Mercy and…His Justice as well. We cannot say "I am saved because I have taken Christ as my personal savior.’ The next step is picking up the cross and following Him, and enduring in Him to the end.
But you are not aware of any actual saints down through the ages…only those mentioned in The Epistles…and a bishop referred to by Christ, the actual Voice of Revelations…though it was penned by St. John the Evangelist.
After that, there is no witness of faith by believers in fundamentalism to exhort and teach the faithful as the faith of Christ inculturates and expands into human history. Nothing. There are those preachers who who are not telling you the truth of Catholicism…Why the need? So much they teach is wrong.
To go straight to heaven with the continued desire to sin is an injustice and affront to God. I do not see it intentional by any fundamentalist…but in heaven there is no sin.
Purgatory, Heaven, Hell…are states of being…Where and how you die continues on…but as your body is now dead…your trial is over. Because the body leads you to sin. The wages of sin is death.
Going to regular confession helps us refine our conscience and guide us to continue to develop a greater conscience to know ourselves and weaknesses, and to avoid near occasions of sins.
We have had many saints all down the ages who have had mystical experiences or theological insights that are true revelations of the Holy Spirit. Many of them have spoken of purgatory.
If you pick up your cross daily in love of Christ, and are in union with God and His love throughout the day, every day, you will go straight to heaven. There was a young mother who died so many years back. She was no saint, but an ordinary woman. Parishioners told the pastor at the funeral that they sensed she went straight to heaven.
You don’t have to be a canonized saint to go to heaven. And St. Paul talks of the fire one must pass to have the desire of ALL sin removed before entering heaven. He was given a glimpse of heaven, and said we cannot believe what awaits us for those who endure. St. Thomas Aquinas was taken up to heaven, and said all his works were as straw.
So the next life…in all its dimensions, is the fulfillment of all the virtues of Jesus Christ, His Mercy and…His Justice as well. We cannot say "I am saved because I have taken Christ as my personal savior.’ The next step is picking up the cross and following Him, and enduring in Him to the end.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I would also like to add that the discipline and study of eschatology in the universal Church is most historic and profound, involving the work of many down through the course of time.
The Church does not haphazardly throw out some ideas for us to believe in. There are ideas that do not become doctrine for many years…and then the Church together must debate and discern if such an idea or concept is truth.
We do not ever follow one man who decides to throw out or rewrite concepts based on his personal opinion or convictions. We follow the Holy Spirit at work in the Church. The Church is by nature conservative and tests all spirits.
Subsequently, there is great depth of thought and calling upon of the Lord in all our undertakings.
The Church does not haphazardly throw out some ideas for us to believe in. There are ideas that do not become doctrine for many years…and then the Church together must debate and discern if such an idea or concept is truth.
We do not ever follow one man who decides to throw out or rewrite concepts based on his personal opinion or convictions. We follow the Holy Spirit at work in the Church. The Church is by nature conservative and tests all spirits.
Subsequently, there is great depth of thought and calling upon of the Lord in all our undertakings.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Baptism cleanses us of all sin and debt due and makes us holy to enter heaven. However most of us AFTER baptism have sinned. We stain or wedding garment by the debt due for mortal sins forgiven and works of hay or stubble (venial sin) from which we need to be cleansed.
[1Jn1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.]
[Jn5:16 If any man see his brother sin a **sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.] A sin unto death we call mortal a sin not unto death we call venial. Those dying in a state of mortal sin go to hell they have defiled the temple of God. Those who die with venial sin go to purgatory for cleansing.
[1Cor3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 **Every man’s WORK shall be made manifest: for the DAY shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so AS BY FIRE. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man DEFILE the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.]
[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, **and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.
[Mt 18:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee all that debt …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the TORMENTORS till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses] The king forgave a great dept owed him by the servant. The servant would not forgive one who owed him, but had him put in prison having no mercy. LIKEWISE our heavenly Father will do to those who forgive not FROM THE HEART.
We can confess our sins and faults in confession and are forgiven the eternal punishment. Yet we must make up or repair the temporal damage our sins have caused. We can do that here or we will pay in purgatory. An example, repairing the damage we may have caused spreading rumors about someone. Only thru baptism is the slate wiped clean, both eternal punishment and temporal dept. There is no need for anyone to go to purgatory. In this life we can repair the damage, directly if possible, or thru prayer, alms, penance, etc…
Those in purgatory can do NO work, they can do nothing to help themselves. [Jn9:4 **I must work the works of him that sent me, WHILE IT IS DAY: the night cometh, when no man can work.] Night has come for those who have departed, when no man can work.
Those on earth can avoid AND aid the souls in purgatory. Offering up prayers, alms, acts of charity, indulgences gained, fasting or other sacrifices offered to God. How much our acts help only God knows. HIS GRACE SUPPLIES the value to any good deed performed, with the very GRACE HE SUPPLIES to do the good deed in the first place.
Those in purgatory are saved already, otherwise they wouldn’t be in purgatory but hell.
Purgatory is God’s great mercy and fruit of the cross. Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross, when we neglect the GRACE GOD SUPPLIES to correct our faults and grow in holiness? Is it earning and nullifying the cross when some of our works are stubble, and we suffer lose, THOUGH SAVED, yet as by fire, 1Cor3:12-16?
When God chastises and scourges his children on earth. Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross? No. It’s one’s own negligence for which God chastises them so they may see their faults and change growing in holiness. He gives all the grace necessary to actually become holy. It’s our own faults, that hinder us, from making use of those gifts (graces) God gives us.
[Hb12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, **My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, NOR FAINT when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But IF YE BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof ALL are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS, and NOT SONS. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; BUT HE for our profit, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.]
We are CHASTENED and SCOURGED by God while we are on earth, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. If we fail to embrace and learn from those chastisings on earth growing in holiness. God in His great mercy will scourge and purify those in need of holiness in purgatory. It isn’t necessary for anyone to go to purgatory, but God in his great mercy knows man and provides.
[2Tm2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 IF A MAN CLEANSES HIMSELF FROM THE LATTER, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, **MADE HOLY, USEFUL TO THE MASTER and prepared TO DO ANY GOOD WORK.]
[1Cor3:12 now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 … 14 … 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so **AS BY FIRE.]
Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross, when one builder is diligent and another careless in using the grace God gives them to build? If we don’t, thru the grace God supplies, purge the latter on earth then God in His great mercy will do so in Purgatory.
2Cor7:1 Having therefore these promises, **dearly beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES ** from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING HOLINESS in the fear of God.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
I love Mass I suspect you are confusing me 
You got my name right - Jose and my forum name right as well - Isaiah
- Status