Protestants question about Purgatory

[ForeverGrace]

JL: Baptism cleanses us of all sin and debt due and makes us holy to enter heaven. However most of us AFTER baptism have sinned. We stain or wedding garment by the debt due for mortal sins forgiven and works of hay or stubble (venial sin) from which we need to be cleansed.

[1Jn1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.]

[Jn5:16 If any man see his brother sin a **sin which is not unto death

, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.] A sin unto death we call mortal a sin not unto death we call venial. Those dying in a state of mortal sin go to hell they have defiled the temple of God. Those who die with venial sin go to purgatory for cleansing.

[1Cor3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 **Every man’s WORK shall be made manifest: for the DAY shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so AS BY FIRE. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man DEFILE the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, **and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.

[Mt 18:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee all that debt …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the TORMENTORS till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses] The king forgave a great dept owed him by the servant. The servant would not forgive one who owed him, but had him put in prison having no mercy. LIKEWISE our heavenly Father will do to those who forgive not FROM THE HEART.

We can confess our sins and faults in confession and are forgiven the eternal punishment. Yet we must make up or repair the temporal damage our sins have caused. We can do that here or we will pay in purgatory. An example, repairing the damage we may have caused spreading rumors about someone. Only thru baptism is the slate wiped clean, both eternal punishment and temporal dept. There is no need for anyone to go to purgatory. In this life we can repair the damage, directly if possible, or thru prayer, alms, penance, etc…

Those in purgatory can do NO work, they can do nothing to help themselves. [Jn9:4 **I must work the works of him that sent me, WHILE IT IS DAY: the night cometh, when no man can work.] Night has come for those who have departed, when no man can work.

Those on earth can avoid AND aid the souls in purgatory. Offering up prayers, alms, acts of charity, indulgences gained, fasting or other sacrifices offered to God. How much our acts help only God knows. HIS GRACE SUPPLIES the value to any good deed performed, with the very GRACE HE SUPPLIES to do the good deed in the first place.
Those in purgatory are saved already, otherwise they wouldn’t be in purgatory but hell.

Purgatory is God’s great mercy and fruit of the cross. Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross, when we neglect the GRACE GOD SUPPLIES to correct our faults and grow in holiness? Is it earning and nullifying the cross when some of our works are stubble, and we suffer lose, THOUGH SAVED, yet as by fire, 1Cor3:12-16?

When God chastises and scourges his children on earth. Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross? No. It’s one’s own negligence for which God chastises them so they may see their faults and change growing in holiness. He gives all the grace necessary to actually become holy. It’s our own faults, that hinder us, from making use of those gifts (graces) God gives us.

[Hb12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, **My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, NOR FAINT when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But IF YE BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof ALL are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS, and NOT SONS. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; BUT HE for our profit, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.]

We are CHASTENED and SCOURGED by God while we are on earth, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. If we fail to embrace and learn from those chastisings on earth growing in holiness. God in His great mercy will scourge and purify those in need of holiness in purgatory. It isn’t necessary for anyone to go to purgatory, but God in his great mercy knows man and provides.

[2Tm2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 IF A MAN CLEANSES HIMSELF FROM THE LATTER, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, **MADE HOLY, USEFUL TO THE MASTER and prepared TO DO ANY GOOD WORK.]

[1Cor3:12 now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 … 14 … 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so **AS BY FIRE.]

Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross, when one builder is diligent and another careless in using the grace God gives them to build? If we don’t, thru the grace God supplies, purge the latter on earth then God in His great mercy will do so in Purgatory.
2Cor7:1 Having therefore these promises, **dearly beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES ** from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING HOLINESS in the fear of God.

Mmmmm… none of this has anything to do with the fact, that Jesus already paid the price for my sins. I repent on a pretty frequent basis. Of course, I don’t believe I have to earn my salvation. Scripture says it is a gift. You don’t pay for a gift.

I accept that you believe there is a purgatory. You’ll have to accept that I do not and neither can I find any scripture to support a place called purgatory. But… if there was, how obscene is it, that if you have enough money you can get out or avoid it all together. I have read that in your scriptures and heard one of your Priests affirm that. Are these people maybe misrepresenting what the teaching is? That sounds sadly more like American justice. That does not sound like God’s justice at all.

I love 2 Corinithians 7:1. It reminds us all to seek to live a godly life, but I don’t see any mention of purgatory there. There is no mention of cheap grace in my Bible. And any suggestion that my Saviors sacrifice is given cheaply is well… never mind. However, it does remind me how different we really are. I know my Savior will not cast me aside because He has promised to redeem me and He is not a man that He should lie. He has not laid out a long list of ‘must do’s’ to be saved. No, my Bible says “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. Halleluia, What a Savior.

 

[Porknpie]

I love 2 Corinithians 7:1. It reminds us all to seek to live a godly life, but I don’t see any mention of purgatory there. There is no mention of cheap grace in my Bible. And any suggestion that my Saviors sacrifice is given cheaply is well… never mind. However, it does remind me how different we really are. I know my Savior will not cast me aside because He has promised to redeem me and He is not a man that He should lie. He has not laid out a long list of ‘must do’s’ to be saved. No, my Bible says “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. Halleluia, What a Savior.

Is that all your bible says about salvation? If yes, you must get a Catholic version. Below is a link to another thread that discussed the same subject. The bible is full of other salvation verses that we need to pay attention to. We do agree: what a Savior indeed!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=576194

 

[pablope]

Mmmmm… n

I accept that you believe there is a purgatory. You’ll have to accept that I do not and neither can I find any scripture to support a place called purgatory. But… if there was, how obscene is it, that if you have enough money you can get out or avoid it all together. I have read that in your scriptures and heard one of your Priests affirm that. Are these people maybe misrepresenting what the teaching is? That sounds sadly more like American justice. That does not sound like God’s justice at all.
r.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Turn with me now to 1st Peter, chapter 3, beginning in verse 17. In 1st Peter, chapter 3, verse 17, we read, “For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all. The righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God. Being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison.”

What’s he talking about? Well, almost all commentators see this as in continuity with the Hebrew idea of sheol. “But made alive in the spirit in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark in which only a few, that is, eight persons were saved through water.” Now, somebody could say, “Well, these people are only being preached to, to secure their damnation and finalize it.” Well that’s certainly a gratuitous reading that’s not suggested in the text. What is suggested in the text from the previous verse, is we’re talking about Christ the righteous dying for the unrighteous that He might bring us to God.

So he goes on to talk about the unrighteous who are in prison, but who are in prison for unrighteousness that we might not consider mortal. It’s unrighteousness, but it is not the kind of sin that is full-fledged and completely rationally chosen in rebellion, full scale rebellion against God. This is something perhaps quite different. At any rate, we have something that is neither hell nor heaven which Christ entered and then exited and, as the early Church firmly believed throughout the Church, Christ descended into hades. That’s the term, we translate it hell, but we sometimes mislead people — He descended into hades and then He ascended into heaven leading captivity captive, as Ephesians 4 says.

Let’s take a look at the Book of Revelation, chapter 20, verses 4-6 and 11 and following. In Revelation 20, John has a vision. In verse 4 it says, “Then I saw heavenly thrones and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also, I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus.” Probably a reference to the prophets like John the Baptist who had been literally beheaded for his marturia, his testimony. The word is mar-tu-ria, where we get the word martyrs. “…testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and it would not worship the beast or its image and had not received its mark on the forehead with their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years in heaven on these thrones.” We’ll return to this by the way when we look into the evidence from the New Testament for the cult of the saints, why we believe that some saints are actively interceding on our behalf with heavenly authority.

We go on, verse 5, “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.” They were dead but they weren’t in heaven. They didn’t come to life. “This is the first resurrection,” that is, those who die and immediately go to heaven and sit on thrones because they were martyrs. That’s the first resurrection, those who have been martyred. “Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection. Over such, the second death has no power for they shall be priests of God, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.”

St. Maxmillian Kolbe’s feast day is this day. He is one of those heavenly priests interceding for us because he was martyred on behalf of Christ’s people in the war. It goes on now. We can take a look at verse 11, “Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it. From his presence earth and sky fled away and no place was found for them and I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne and the books were opened. And another book was opened which was the book of life and the dead were judged by what was written in the books by what they had done and the sea gave up the dead in it. Death and hades gave up the dead in them and all were judged by what they had done. Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Two classes of righteous, those who are martyred, they just went straight to heaven and sat on thrones and reigned with Christ. But there’s a second group, isn’t there? Those that did not participate in the first resurrection of the righteous martyrs, but they did have their names written in the book of life; so when the white throne, the great white throne of judgment occurs, they are delivered from hades. They participate in what you could call the second resurrection, not the second death and afterwards death and hades are swallowed up in the lake of fire, and then you’ve got pure hell and pure heaven and no more intermediate place or state at the end of time.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…it is most important that you get a Bible that is approved of by the Church. The Council of Trent affirmed after reflecting on the issues of the Protestants, that the books that were chosen since the beginning of Christianity, were indeed inspired selections.

I cannot follow an individual break away faith, but remain with that which is challenged, tested and prayerfully by the ecclesia in the spirit of faith and certitude. If you read Bible alone, you are not witnessing how the faith of the Word of God was then put into practice as understood through the Apostles. That is the tradition of faith: How the faith was understood and preached to the world by the Apostles, and how they approved of then how the faith was to be lived out and put into practice. You are missing out on 2,000 years of faith and practice…the Word and Tradition. They go hand in hand…the Word and the faith of the people.

St. Peter says we are not to follow personal interpretation but only that given to us by the Apostles, who were preappointed at the chosen time, they alone chosen by Christ Himself to be ‘witnesses’ to His Majesty.

 

[jlhargus]

Mmmmm… none of this has anything to do with the fact, that Jesus already paid the price for my sins. I repent on a pretty frequent basis. Of course, I don’t believe I have to earn my salvation. Scripture says it is a gift. You don’t pay for a gift.

JL: I can agree it has nothing to do with Jesus ALREADY paying the price for your sins. It has to do more with the sins you commit AFTER baptism. Yes Jesus has indeed paid the price for our sins with his blood and no one can earn salvation it is a gift. How is the fruit of that blood applied to cleans from sin after baptism?

I accept that you believe there is a purgatory. You’ll have to accept that I do not and neither can I find any scripture to support a place called purgatory.

JL: I know you don’t accept purgatory I use to be Protestant. Some don’t believe in hell but it still exits. The word PURGATORY isn’t found in scripture, nor is the word TRINITY. Although the word trinity or purgatory are not in scripture the concept is found in scripture. Christ uses the word PRISON to describe a temporary place of restitution. Jews still pray for their dead for eleven months after their death. Why would anyone pray for the dead if they didn’t think they could be helped?

If Onesiphorus has died, as it seems Paul is indicating, since Paul doesn’t indicate Onesiphorus is with him. Paul would not only be praying for Onesiphorus’ family in 2Tm1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:] but also for the repose of the soul of Onesiphorus in 2Tm1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.] MERCY on THAT DAY, would indicate judgement, [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men to die once, and after that comes judgment,] In closing the letter Paul does not memtion Onesiphorus but salutes his household. [2Tm4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and THE HOUSEHOLD of Onesiphorus.] This would also indicate Onesiphorus is dead and Paul is praying for the repose of his soul. Strongly indicating Paul believed in a temporary place/state (purgatory) other than heaven and hell. Prayer for those in heaven would be superfluous as they have no needs. Also prayer for those in hell would be superfluous as they are beyond help.

[Mt5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art **IN THE WAY with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, TILL thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, **and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.

[Mt 18:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the TORMENTORS till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses]

[1Cor3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 **Every man’s work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS. 14 IF ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 IF any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.
[Mk9:49 For **EVERY ONE SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.] [HEB 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.]

How can a WORK be carried with us into death when we are spirit, and take nothing with us? Works are brought to the judgement in the HEART or SOUL’S intention. Was the intention of the work, for love of God, or for the praise it will bring to self, or even half and half? That inclination, to works of wood, hay, stubble, will be purged by fire or suffering to render the soul pure. Just as gold which has impurities, yet is still valuable, it is purified, as though by fire. The HEART or soul must be separated from the impure works of wood, hay or stubble.

[Jer 17:9 THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 ** I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, ACCORDING TO what HIS DEEDS deserve.]
[Mk7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that WHATSOEVER THING FROM WITHOUT ENTERETH INTO THE MAN, it CANNOT DEFILE HIM; 19 Because IT ENTERETH NOT into HIS HEART, BUT INTO THE BELLY, and goeth out into the draught, PRUGING ALL MEATS? 20 And he said, **THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF THE MAN, that DEFILETH THE MAN. 21 For FROM WITHIN, OUT OF THE HEART of men, PROCEED EVIL thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,] When we die, we take nothing with us, we are at our core being=soul from which pure or impure actions come. the same work can be gold or hay, depending on the intention of the heart, whether done for love of God or love of self. It is from within our heart or core being, from which sin comes, that’s what needs to be purified, of impure works.

[1Pt4:18 And **IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?]

[Mt 12:[Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it **SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN him, NEITHER in this world, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME. 33 EITHER MAKE THE TREE GOOD AND its fruit good OR make the tree BAD and its fruit bad for the tree is known by its fruit 34 You brood of vipers! how can you speak good when you are evil For out of the abundance OF THE HEART the mouth speaks 35 The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil 36 I tell you on the day of judgment men will RENDER ACCOUNT FOR EVERY CARLESS WORD they utter] Neither in the world to come idicates some things can be forgiven in the next world.] Some trees can be MADE good only thru suffering either in this life or in the next.

 

[jlhargus]

But… if there was, how obscene is it, that if you have enough money you can get out or avoid it all together. I have read that in your scriptures and heard one of your Priests affirm that. Are these people maybe misrepresenting what the teaching is? That sounds sadly more like American justice. That does not sound like God’s justice at all.

JL: That would be obscene to the extreme and is not God’s justice AT ALL. I think you have misunderstood both the scripture and the Priest. If the scripture you are referring to is 2Macbs you are mistaken. They took up a collection to buy sacrificial animals for sin offering in the temple.

[2Macbs12:43 And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection 44 For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. 45 And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.] By the way this comes from the 1611 KJV of the Bible which had all the Deuterocanonical books of the OT.

[Lv 19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even A RAM for a trespass offering. 22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him WITH THE RAM of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.] So in your bible did the Israelites buy God off? That ram was not a cheap offering. Do you consider Leviticus obscene?

I love 2 Corinithians 7:1. It reminds us all to seek to live a godly life, but I don’t see any mention of purgatory there.

JL: [2Cor7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.]

I also love 2Cor7:1 and ALL scripture. I too do not see any mention of purgatory there. Why should there be? I also don’t see any mention of how we cleanse OURSELVES from all filthiness in just 2Cor:1:7 either.

There is no mention of cheap grace in my Bible. And any suggestion that my Saviors sacrifice is given cheaply is well… never mind.

JL: I see you have no answer to my post so you make cheap remarks as a cover. I have a think skin so it’s ok. Can you point out in my post what you consider CHEAP GRACE. Also where did I suggest Christ’s sacrifice is given cheaply? Do you consider it CHEAP GRACE when God CHASTISES His children on earth to YIELD the FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that they MIGHT be PARTAKERS of His holiness and avoid purgatory altogether? Hb12:11 tell us chastising isn’t joyous but grievous when one goes thru it.

[Hb12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons**; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 … Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward IT YIELDETH the peaceable FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, LEST THAT WHICH IS LAME be TURNED OUT OF THE WAY; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:]

However, it does remind me how different we really are. I know my Savior will not cast me aside because He has promised to redeem me and He is not a man that He should lie. He has not laid out a long list of ‘must do’s’ to be saved.

JL: I certainly didn’t say or even imply Christ would cast you or anyone aside. He never casts anyone aside. But a willful sin, unto death, can cast Christ aside by the sinners free will choice. Even a gift can be thrown away. Has Christ promised to redeem you without repenting and truning from sin?

No, my Bible says “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. Halleluia, What a Savior.

JL: The Catholic Bible says the same. So that’s all one needs to do BELIEVE alone. All we need then is a Holy Leaflett not the whole Bible. The Bible also says when one believes they MUST repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins AND they shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38. And again in [Jms1:22 But BE ye DOERS OF THE WORD, and **NOT HEARERS ONLY, deceiving your own selves.] You can’t rest on one scripture verse ALONE to the exclusion of other scriptures. Otherwise you end up having scripture contradict scripture, which it never does.

 

[CaptFun]

This can be a sticky issue. Here’s questions I have gotten:

1. Where does Jesus talk about Purgatory?
2. Where does Jesus talk about praying for the dead?
3. Jesus abolished the “Old Law”, so the OT doesn’t apply.
4. 2nd Maccabees isn’t even in the Bible. Even if it were; see no. 3.

Purgatory is a toughie… I need answers on refuting these, myself. I’ll be watching this thread very closely. Thank you for posting this thread!

It’s not really all that sticky. It’s just that the “minor doctrine” of Purgatory (not so emphasized, nor taught about in detail in the 1500s) was a convenient issue for the “Reformers” to debate the Church on. More on that another time.

I don’t view the critiques of this established doctrine on a par with it … and so have some qualms about answering the above questions. But ok, I’ll use the form you’ve given.

1. In His teachings about the “Kingdom of God” (which is NOT of this world - even though it is within you) Jesus refers to a place and time of justice and punishment where some might be detained " … until the last penny is paid".

Matthew 18:34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. 35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."
< This is the end of the parable of the unjust servant - who is forgiven a large debt by the “Master” - then does NOT forgive another HIS trespasses. And so “loses his salvation” at least temporarily “until the last penny is paid.”

Jesus speaks of temporary punishment, justice, and reconciliation elsewhere as well:

Luke 12:57 “Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. 59** I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” **

**Matthew 5:23 **Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there at the altar, go first and ***be reconciled with your brother, ***and then come and offer your gift. 25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

If one argues Jesus was giving counsel ONLY about this earthly life … the verses are obscure. If they apply to “the Kingdom of God” - they have eternal value to us. If these are “throw away verses” applicable only to pre-Church Jews … why did the Holy Spirit inspire the Gospel writers to include them in the New Testament addressed to the Church?

2). Jesus does more than talk. He prays for the dead. And raises them to life.
Even though later they died again. Then too there is this …

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. 19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience,** through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Did Jesus’ preaching to the spirits in prison result in any saved souls? Were these NOT souls that He died for? If SO and if there still are “spirits in prison” (remember scripture believing folks, that prison is established and not shown to be eliminated thereafter); then should not the BODY of Christ (the Church) follow the Head (Christ) in this ministry?

I speak this way to those for whom the Church’s teaching is not enough. It is for me. But even playing in the “scripture alone” ballpark this ought to give one pause.

1. But but but Jesus HIMSELF says: Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
   Number 3 is almost a PERFECT contradiction of this!
2. Yes it is. And I’ve seen number 3 … it looks a lot like Theological “number TWO!” :sad_yes:

The same Church that ratified the WHOLE New Testament (which NOW most other “Christians” accept), canonized both Maccabee books of the Old Testament. For some reason (possibly to carve out an identity more distant to the Church they were leaving?) some of the Reformers adopted the so-called “Jewish canon” for the Old Testament.

HERE is the funny thing. That Jewish “Council of Jamnia” took place in 70 AD. Those Jews did NOT believe Jesus was the Messiah. Maccabees 1 and 2 not only recorded a great Jewish hero and leader praying for the souls of the dead - but pointed strongly to a future Resurrection for the dead; which was anathema to the Sadducees.

Nevertheless the Reformers dispatched several OT books on the non-believers’ say so.
This was odd because, if one reads Sirach for instance, it seems like Jesus quotes from it or says things very similar to what had been written. Those books were used in Jewish worship all through Jesus’ life and for 30+ years after until the rulings at Jamnia. Just months later Titus and the Roman army put an end to the Jewish state, the temple, the Sanhedrin, and the Jewish priesthood (except for the NT priesthood of the Christians).

Counter questions: What do Protestants call the 1 Corinthians 3 place (or time) where some "suffer loss" < (note the verb) and are ***saved but only “as through fire” ?
*** It appears to be a place of judgement, not heaven/not hell.

1 Corinthians 3:11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
---- Part 1 --- to be continued (sorry it's so long but there's a lot!)

 

[CaptFun]

This can be a sticky issue. Here’s questions I have gotten:

1. Where does Jesus talk about Purgatory?
2. Where does Jesus talk about praying for the dead?
3. Jesus abolished the “Old Law”, so the OT doesn’t apply.
4. 2nd Maccabees isn’t even in the Bible. Even if it were; see no. 3.

Purgatory is a toughie… I need answers on refuting these, myself. I’ll be watching this thread very closely. Thank you for posting this thread!

Part 2 of my long answer

The root word** “Purge”** and the many scriptures that refer to God purifying His people, priesthood etc. ARE in the Bible.

**Isaiah 6:1 **In the year King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne, with the train of his garment filling the temple.

2 Seraphim were stationed above; each of them had six wings: with two they veiled their faces, with two they veiled their feet, and with two they hovered aloft.

3 “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts!” they cried one to the other. “All the earth is filled with his glory!”

4 At the sound of that cry, the frame of the door shook and the house was filled with smoke.

5 **Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
**
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.

7 He touched my mouth with it. “See,” he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed,*** your sin purged.”

---

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?” “Here I am,” I said; “send me!”

Review: Isaiah goes to heaven. Is convicted of his sin in God’s presence. An Angel takes and ember (fire or hot coal) from the altar, touches his lips and says ***NOW … PURGED.

---

Isaiah THEN gets over his formerly sinful self and deeds and answers “Here I am!” to the Lord. :extrahappy:

If a hardhead insists on it … you could shake the dust of your feet and go but … you could remind him how St. John felt upon seeing Almighty God.

**Revelations 1:12 **Then I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me, and when I turned, I saw seven gold lampstands

13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, wearing an ankle-length robe, with a gold sash around his chest.

14 The hair of his head was as white as white wool or as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame.

15 His feet were like polished brass refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing water.

16 In his right hand he held seven stars. A sharp two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest.

17 When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last,

18 the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.

Verse 17 looks like a Purgatory moment for John. Is it untrue??

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

and HE said things like:

John 14:12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

13 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.

And sometimes we ask that the sins of our departed loved ones be forgiven.
Do WE love them more than HE does? :nope:

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord’s rejection does not last forever;

32 Though he punishes, he takes pity, in the abundance of his mercies;

33 He has no joy in afflicting or grieving the sons of men.

Read the rest of this chapter though … and suffering can go on for awhile, tough suffering too!

There’s more. But prayer for the dead, temporary suffering after death for purification (even for some of the “saved”), God’s mercy being great as well as His justice, and the fact that JESUS gave His Church power and authority to teach, bind and loose things … even sins; ought to do for now.

**Matthew 16:15 **He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus said** to him **in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you** bind on earth shall be bound in heaven**; and **whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

Jesus’ words. This binding and loosing power of office did not die with Peter. And so
the Church teaches with the same authority. That Church teaches of a place of temporary
purification for some after death; called Purgatory. It is for the “saved” and not a second chance for the damned as some have accused the Church of teaching.

The basis for teaching that there IS NO PURGATORY! Is not the Church’s teaching. It is novel. It is uncharitable if souls there need our prayers and utterly proud and selfish.
Perhaps only Catholics give these poor souls any help at all. Maybe not many of these either.

The JOB of the Church is to save souls, give comfort, lead others to God.

If one is still in doubt about this … consider that …

**2 Peter 3:9 **The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, ***not wishing that any should perish *******but that all should come to repentance.

Hell is eternal. It is WHAT Jesus saved us FROM. But it seems people go there.

The Church has never PUT anyone there though. It has canonized saints for our benefit and to imitate.

And … in a last burst of Ecumenism and Unity … one day there WILL be no Purgatory. :hug1: “… And they’ll no-o we are Christians by our love!”

 

[crazzeto]

Top quoting because I am on my phone which now lacks a physical keyboard. So to the first point, then understanding the communion of saints we could at least say if we understand that there is a purgatory, then we should understand how our prayer and mortification help them (indulgences). So we should be left with, is there a time of purgation. To get at that second question, I guess the best answer I have is wall clock time, before entering heaven. A period of time required to make the soul perfectly formed to God, as revelation says.

Lutherans of any persuasion should not take a dim view of the Communion of Saints.

I’m sorry, crazzeto, please forgive me because that word “time” gets in the way, from my POV. When you say “time in Purgatory”, what exactly is your understanding? I don’t want to respond without being clear as to what you mean.

I sort of take the Luther view, that a prayer along the lines of, Dear Father in Heaven for Jesus’ sake, if this our depard loved one is in a condition accessible to mercy, we pray that you would be merciful and gracious to him/her,is appropriate. It is my hope that our prayers for loved ones who die, coupled with the prayers of the saints in Heaven, implore God to mercy and Grace, but I don’t believe it speeds up the process in any way we can understand.

Jon

 

[CaptFun]

jlhargus posted:

[2Macbs12:43 And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection 44 For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. 45 And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.] By the way this comes from the 1611 KJV of the Bible which had all the Deuterocanonical books of the OT.

HA! Thanks for this jihargus. This verse is not only about sacrificing and praying for the dead – but about the RESURRECTION!

The Reformers may have adopted the non-Christian Jewish (Old Testament) “Canon” because they opposed the doctrine of Purgatory … and indulgences … and Church authority - and the book of 2 Maccabees affirmed these things in a positive way. But the non-Christian Jews who demoted several books which were being used by the upstart “Christians” at the Council of Jamnia, 90AD – opposed THIS section due to its affirmation of “The Resurrection,” a central teaching of the Christians – but anathema to the Sadducees especially.

 

[KathleenGee]

CaptFun…will take time to read your responses…

We have to understand the profundity of the Mass, the daily sacrifice Melchizedek prophesized…the perpetual sacrifice…the daily Mass is being said around the world 24 hours in the day.

The daily sacrifice atones for the sins committed by the world, including all Christians. Jesus stands as the Sacrificial Lamb-- wounded but glorified and triumphant, before the Heavenly Father, and is united with us at Mass on the altar. When we stand united with Him, centered on Him Who is our life, this is the greatest act we as Christians can do before sin and evil.

Dr Scott Hahn called the Mass the Lord’s atomic bomb, along with the sacraments, against Satan and sin.

When we have a Mass said for either ourselves or another, we are calling on Christ Himself to atone for our sins and draw us closer to the Lord in heaven. So that is why we offer Masses, as those in Maccabees had done, good to pray for the dead, to facilitate their way into heaven. The Mass assists in purging the desire to sin in the soul.

We will not realize how efficacious and how great the Mass until we are united with the Lord in heaven.

 

[JonNC]

Top quoting because I am on my phone which now lacks a physical keyboard. So to the first point, then understanding the communion of saints we could at least say if we understand that there is a purgatory, then we should understand how our prayer and mortification help them (indulgences). So we should be left with, is there a time of purgation. To get at that second question, I guess the best answer I have is wall clock time, before entering heaven. A period of time required to make the soul perfectly formed to God, as revelation says.

How much time do you think Christ needs? Is it ok for me to believe that, in an instant, at the moment of death, Christ’s love and grace sufficiently purifies one, just as, at the moment of Baptism, the Spirit does the same?

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

I can see where you are going, Captain…

Recall the time when Christ brought several of His apostles up to the mountain and there appeared to them Moses and Elijah and Christ walked among them…this Theophany the precursor to the beginning of Christ’s divine mission…the Transfiguration.

Christ entered Jerusalem at the beginning of the Passover. Christ had presented the sacred gifts as Melchizedek at the Last Supper of bread and wine, but no sacrificial lamb. There He declared holding up the bread and then the wine, that He is now the Bread and Wine, do this in memory of Me…the form of worship now the Memorial. This is now the beginning of Christ’s priesthood and the institution of the priesthood…Christ working through His chosen in spirit and truth.

Here at the Last Supper, at the institution of the Eucharist and its inseparable link with the instituted priesthood, Christ likewise singles out Peter to name him as head before the rest of the apostles.

But HIs death and resurrection did not complete His mission. He told His followers not to touch Him as He had not ascended yet to the Father.

What is completing His mission…is Jesus as the One, High Priest.

The high priest of the Old Testament would sprinkle sacrificial blood on the altar of the Mercy Seat…once a year…only once a year, and only the High Priest, of the authorized Levite priesthood.

And on the eve of the Resurrection, Christ appears in His resurrected state, also telling the followers not to touch Him as He had not yet ascended to His Father. But on the other hand, He now gives the apostles authority to forgive and absolve sins through Him, to bind and loosen.

After the Passover, and Christ’s death and resurrection,Jesus ascended into heaven…and now as the wounded but Triumphant Lamb enters through the gate of heaven to stand before the Heavenly Father, and uniting Himself to the sacred banquet below at the Eucharistic Table.

Then forty days after His death and resurrection, comes Pentecost, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Who is now their Teacher and Comforter, the beginning of the universal Church with Christ as the High Priest and Sacrificial Lamb Who is our nourishment here below, Whose nourishment feeds us eternal life. Scripture is very clear on that.

Christ is the atonement of sin. What about the Christians who continue to sin every day? Why the significance of the Daily Sacrifice??? The sacrament of penance is not only the source of forgiveness and healing, but also a new strengthen and life in Christ. That is what the sacraments are…outward concrete signs that contain therein the life of grace in Christ. Seven sacraments…seven the symbol of life.

And going back to the Mass…it is the greatest atonement for sin on earth. And it is offered up for the forgiveness and remission of sins of those in purgatory…recall St. Paul’s words of the purging fire…that still have some inclination and will of sin.

Our goal in life is to have perfect will with the Lord. If someone is truly penitent and has sinned his entire life, and confesses his sins with the utmost of full conversion and repentance, he can go straight to heaven. The issue is one going back and sinning again.

So as our Lord invokes us, we are to renounce ourselves daily, pick up our cross and follow Him every day.

To go straight to heaven with the desire and will to continue to sin…no matter the size as any sin disfigures us and puts darkness around us…contradicts the presence of heaven where there is no sin but God and His life.

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun…will take time to read your responses… Time OFF Purgatory for YOU perhaps Thanks.

We have to understand the profundity of the Mass, the daily sacrifice Melchizedek prophesized…the perpetual sacrifice…the daily Mass is being said around the world 24 hours in the day. Yes we do. And the mass would be the promised sacrifice from the purified priesthood prophesied in Malachi (last book of the OT) as well.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

In the NT that sacrifice IS the sacrifice of Jesus, the new HIGH Priest. And it is worldwide not just in Jerusalem at the Temple as the OT sacrifices were.

Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; And suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, And the messenger of the*** covenant*** whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. 2 But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire, or like the fuller’s lye. 3 He will sit** refining and purifying (silver)**, and *he will purify the sons of Levi, *Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD. <The Mass (the New Covenant “Do this …” commanded by Jesus)

The daily sacrifice atones for the sins committed by the world, including all Christians. Jesus stands as the Sacrificial Lamb-- wounded but glorified and triumphant, before the Heavenly Father, and is united with us at Mass on the altar. When we stand united with Him, centered on Him Who is our life, this is the greatest act we as Christians can do before sin and evil. Culminating with our obeying Him by receiving His body and blood and keeping our part of the New Covenant, consuming the “lamb” that replaces the OT Passover lamb (also commanded to be consumed). WHAT intimacy. That the Lord should come to US so intimately! :extrahappy:

Dr Scott Hahn called the Mass the Lord’s atomic bomb, along with the sacraments, against Satan and sin. He rocks! Oh yeah, Scott Hahn TOO!

When we have a Mass said for either ourselves or another, we are calling on Christ Himself to atone for our sins and draw us closer to the Lord in heaven. So that is why we offer Masses, as those in Maccabees had done, good to pray for the dead, to facilitate their way into heaven. The Mass assists in purging the desire to sin in the soul.

We will not realize how efficacious and how great the Mass until we are united with the Lord in heaven.

Amen. I did think of a Purgatory-like (emotional) moment Peter had before he was able to attend that last supper.

John 13:5 5 Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and dry them with the towel around his waist. 6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Master, are you going to wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing, you do not understand now, but you will understand later.” 8 Peter said to him, ***“You will never wash my feet.” ***Jesus answered him, **“Unless I wash you, you will have no inheritance with me.” **

Now why Jesus’ presence wasn’t “sufficient” for Peter to be able to come to the table with dirty feet … or wash his own feet isn’t recounted. But if we must have a similar purification done for us before we can join the heavenly banquet - we’d better just obey Jesus instead of contending with him about the necessity, and then the form of what He’s doing – or changing the subject from OUR purification to HIS sufficiency.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ is showing Peter that he must become a servant…Servant of God is the title given both to the Holy Father and the bishops. Being a servant and placing one’s self is the way of the disciple, the follower of Jesus. We are are all called to participate in the apostolic life according to our state of life, as long as all centers on the Will of God.

And the washing of feet was the custom upon entering a home. One could say it is a renewal of baptism. We bless ourselves with Holy Water upon entering and leaving a church as a renewal and affirmation of our baptismal promises.

That is taking one small quote and making a huge assumption about it…sin is most serious…no matter how small. Christ said in Luke 13…‘do penance for the remission of sin, lest ye likewise shall perish’.

Christ is the atonement of sin.

Nobody is buying their way into heaven. NO Catholic, even hundreds of years ago, living in austure times then compared to now would ever think of fooling God and paying their way into heaven…

Again, we are drawing on Christ in the Mass, the usual form of indulgence. The normal stipend is $5 to have a Mass said, especially for the deceased. You are offering up the saving and redemptive life of Christ as atonement for a person who has passes on. It is all about you and Christ.

Five dollars these days doesn’t get anybody much anything. But you cannot compare the Mass to anything of this world.

 

[CaptFun]

Hi. Typo alert. In my post #66 regarding the non-Christian Jewish **“Council of Jamnia” **that “canonized” some of the OT scriptures but not a part of the Septuagint the Christians were using … **took place in 90 AD not 70AD **(I got the date right in a later post).

In 70 AD The Romans under Titus conquered Judea (including Jerusalem and the final zealots at the fortress of Masada). Putting an end to the Jerusalem Temple service and the Jewish nation/state.

2 Maccabees was particularly troublesome for the Jamnian Jews as it pointed to the Resurrection of people after death. It was troublesome for the Reformers who questioned the existence of Purgatory because, IF scripture 2 Maccabees’ recounting of a Jewish leader praying for the repose of the souls of the dead (who were found to have done wrong too) would have “proved Purgatory” somewhat “in scripture” < which was then replacing any teaching office of the Church in the Protestant view.

So … they went with the non-Christian Jews (who could have accepted the Messiah in 90 AD but did not) and their canon of the OT. Sometimes claiming the Catholic Church “added on” to the Bible.

This was true. The Church added the whole New Testament. It did not exclude the OT Septuagint books used throughout Christ’s life and for 57 more years even by the Jews.
Add to this that Jamnia did not CLOSE even that canon (like the Catholic Church later did with the whole Bible). What’s more, much of the diaspora (Jews outside the Holy Land) never got the word from Jamnia and continued to use the Septuagint books as scripture - some reportedly do so to this day!

When the Catholic Church DID “add” the books of the New Testament (though they were God inspired from the beginning, before formal canonization), they also formalized the 7 OT books of the Septuagint in question. They did not write THOSE.

Early Reformers debated possibly tossing NT books out of the canon too. Notably James and Revelation.

James because the new “faith alone saves” doctrine ran up against the “scripture alone” doctrine in THIS powerful, repetitive, section:

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can ***that faith save ***him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also ***faith of itself, if ***it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. ***Even the demons believe that ***and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that** faith without works is useless?
**
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also*** faith without works is dead.

---

What a doctrinal POUNDING from scripture! “If” James was scripture.

Revelation (6:10) showed visions of saints in heaven petitioning God to do things on Earth.
And the last book of the Bible also referred to the saints as those who “keep the Commandments,” and “wash their robes.” Then it depicted Jesus as one who would judge souls “according to their deeds”. < As opposed to supporting the “faith alone” idea. Some called it “obscure”. Some sources say prominent Protestant reformers cynical of or hostile to the Book of Revelation at one time included Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Karlstadt, Oecolampadius, and Erasmus.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, James is part of Scripture. And the tradition we follow of Sacred Scripture, the Septuagint, is the same that the apostles and St. Paul followed, those Jews who were expecting the Messiah.

James was a great apostle…who went with Jesus, Peter and John to partake in the theophany of the Transfiguration, and he most assuredly has his Epistle to be included, his faith of good works emphasizing it is Jesus Christ through which the world was created…this connection between word and deed…the Word Made Flesh.

We have to look at the apostles in context…this importance placed to James and his relationship to Christ.

So, it is not safe to assume that a reformer by himself with a small gathering of other men can trump those of the Church in earliest times approximating and many of them knowing the Apostles, decide 1500 years later which books to use for public revelation.

The Council of Trent listened and pondered the concerns of the Protestant reformers in the Council of Trent, which indeed corrected abuses and papal issues brought out by the dismantling of faith. After much deliberation, the Holy Spirit guided the Council to re-affirm the work of selecting the appropriate Books of the bible that were done by about 100 ad. The Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church all this time since Pentecost.

 

[KathleenGee]

There is one book of an apostle, the Gospel of St. Thomas. It was determined inspired, but for private revelation, not public revelation.

Public revelation is intended for all people and all time in all locations and cultures…speaking to the universal man.

 

[CaptFun]

There is one book of an apostle, the Gospel of St. Thomas. It was determined inspired, but for private revelation, not public revelation.

Public revelation is intended for all people and all time in all locations and cultures…speaking to the universal man.

Good point. NOT part of the canon does not mean "bad’. Nor does it mean a thing (like a hymn) is not inspired by the Holy Spirit or somehow to be avoided. There are a few ancient books like that which are referred to in the Bible - but not scripture!

Jude 1:14 Enoch, of the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied also about them when he said, “Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed and for all the harsh words godless sinners have uttered against him.” (the non-canon work quoted is from the book of Enoch 1:9 - which, because v9 is quoted, IS then part of the canon AS Jude 1:14-15) !

 

[CaptFun]

Yes, James is part of Scripture. And the tradition we follow of Sacred Scripture, the Septuagint, is the same that the apostles and St. Paul followed, those Jews who were expecting the Messiah.

James was a great apostle…who went with Jesus, Peter and John to partake in the theophany of the Transfiguration, and he most assuredly has his Epistle to be included, his faith of good works emphasizing it is Jesus Christ through which the world was created…this connection between word and deed…the Word Made Flesh.

We have to look at the apostles in context…this importance placed to James and his relationship to Christ.

So, it is not safe to assume that a reformer by himself with a small gathering of other men can trump those of the Church in earliest times approximating and many of them knowing the Apostles, decide 1500 years later which books to use for public revelation.

The Council of Trent listened and pondered the concerns of the Protestant reformers in the Council of Trent, which indeed corrected abuses and papal issues brought out by the dismantling of faith. After much deliberation, the Holy Spirit guided the Council to re-affirm the work of selecting the appropriate Books of the bible that were done by about 100 ad. The Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church all this time since Pentecost.

Thanks Kathleen. I may take this another way. Instead of being on defense and defending the doctrine so much. What are the FRUITS of the teaching?

1. Justice and mercy are reconciled with Truth. We are not only “saved” but purified, holy,
   and changed.
2. Since it was God’s will that our salvation would come through Jesus (his cross and covenant with us) and

… since we know of him through others (the Church, the BODY of Christ); and He desires us to (a) Love God with our whole mind, and our whole heart, and our whole soul and (b) our neighbors as ourselves …

it makes sense that we need both God and others and keeping our part of His covenant to be saved. It takes GRACE which we never could have merited or obtained without God’s free gift, FAITH believing and Works (keeping His Commandments especially the GREAT ONE above).

When we were born the first time … many helped us to survive. The Body of Christ (sent by the HEAD, Jesus) participates in our salvation too.

One MIGHT go “straight to heaven” without Purgatory, in fact it’s recommended! There is judgement though, even for those who will be rewarded! And while some people seem like little angels by the time they die - some are taken with good health and bad habits.

And with the “sins” which are “not unto death” per

**1 John 5:**16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should ***pray to God and he will give him life. ***This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

As people who pray, and can give life to a sinner (following Christ in that!) – wherein should be we self-impose a time limit for our charity? Since God is God of the living and not the dead - where is the teaching that our earthly prayers have no effect in heaven? In FACT from Christ’s mouth came the assurance that His Church could bind things on earth that would be carried out in heaven!

If we are to err … let it be on the side of charity (if that is even possible) rather than the side of sloth, stinginess, or withholding “life” to a soul through neglect or our own understanding.

The RESULT of Purgatory is purification, where one can then " … be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." For " … nothing unclean enters heaven." In heaven Paul says “…we shall be like Him…” We’ll have entered " through the narrow door …" where many will try and not be " …strong enough." <Jesus again alluding to some sort of “work”.

We are to enter through the gate, not try to enter in elsewhere like a thief.

We might be too smart by half if we pin our salvific hopes on some talented preachers’ novel interpretations of some of the “hard to understand” writings of Paul (which though true carry a warning … for false teachers use them to contradict Christ).

Even in this life we have reflections of Purgatory (purification from sin for the soul).
People undergo scary operations to be mortally “saved” here on Earth. And it’s worth it!
All rejoice when a sick person regains their health! It’s a shadow of the LOVE for one another the Lord wants for us!

Spiritually we have the sacrament of Penance, which, sincerely received (sins confessed with sorrow, purpose of amendment) gains us forgiveness with sins put as far away from us as east to the west. Indulgences (which lessen or eliminate even the just punishment due to sins) are also available. Even PLENARY Indulgences - completely satisfying justice - are available. One needn’t pay thousands, nor even a penny for one.

In the front of my NAB Catholic Bible is the Holy Spirit Prayer followed by the pronouncement of an available PLENARY indulgence for a person who prays, then studies scripture for one half hour with the reverence due God! (See for actual wording)

In THAT state one could by pass Purgatory justice-wise if they died before sinning!
Whether we’d still be frightened at finding ourselves at God’s judgement - is another matter. In Isaiah 6:4-5 his sin is PURGED in what looks like a moment. BUT with a hot coal (the Angel uses tongs to bring it from the altar!).

Isaiaih 6:4 Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.

5 He touched my mouth with it. “See,” he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

Interestingly enough, JUST Isaiah’s LIPS are purged. His eyes apparently didn’t need it!