Protestants Re: The Popes Infallibility, And why does it worry you so much?

[EvangelCatholic]

Some posters may not be aware of how much the issue of infallibility is being studied by Roman Catholic scholars. Here’s excerpts from

**Renewal of Papacy will transform Church

by Bernard Cooke | Jun. 17, 2013
ncronline.org/news/theology/renewal-papacy-will-transform-church

"Much recent public reflection on the papacy has been more general and more basic. To take but one example: In recent months, America magazine has published a number of articles by leading students of ecclesiastical authority – Gaillardetz, Fogarty, Reese, Wright – all asking serious questions about the nature and limits of the Vatican’s role in the teaching activity of the church.

Without stating it explicitly, all are suggesting that the key view of Vatican II regarding the collegiality of pope and bishops has yet to be absorbed in official thinking or honored in papal behavior.

If this description of the church is seen to be more appropriate than descriptions that are organizational in character, “collegiality” finds an applicability far beyond the relation between pope and bishops; it is a characteristic of the people of God as a whole. As a result, notions like magisterium take on a broader and less authority-based meaning than that presently understood in official circles.

While not widely publicized, there has been forthright and forward-looking discussion of papal primacy in the so-called “bilateral groups” (Catholic-Lutheran, Catholic-Anglican, and so forth), which consist of representative bishops and theologians from the Christian churches in question.

One of the most carefully researched and thoughtful, and unfortunately little-known, essays was that of Patrick Burns in the Lutheran-Catholic study of the papacy."**

 

[ufamtobie]

So is infallibility only upon Peter and his successors, or on all Apostles?

Read scripture, who did Jesus Christ hand / give the keys to? It was not to all Apostles but to St. Peter Only and then onto His successors the Popes.

Jesus did not say to all of His apostles you are rock I will build my church but only to St. Peter, you are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church.

Ufam Tobie

 

[SteveVH]

Meh, some people I read somewhere. So let us assume that they are pretty bad at what they do, is the list of infallible statements so hard to find?

We have over 2000 years of history. Yeah, it would take some digging. But they would be found in the defining documents concerning doctrine arising from various councils, for example. In all truth, the Pope has rarely spoken from the “Chair of Peter” and I believe that was a grand total of two times; the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. But when the pope makes statements such as the following, as soon to be St. John Paul, II did, concerning women becoming priests:

*"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate."*

It is pretty clear that this qualifies as infallible teaching as well. So it would take a lot of time, I would think, to sift through papal writings, statements, declarations etc. over the history of the Church.

But I happily defer to someone with more knowledge in this area.

 

[pablope]

It think the one who inspired the canon is greater than the one who compiled it. I also think the authority of the one who inspired the canon is greater than the authority of the one who compiled it, and so on.

But who did God give this authority to?

 

[Henree]

If you want a list…go back 2000 yrs and search for every papal proclamation…Good luck on your endeavor.

But those decrees and proclamations are alive in the Church…in its common teaching, its common worship…its common life…dating back 2000 yrs.

It is lived.

I’ll take it then that the list can’t be produced; therefore, it doesn’t exist.

 

[pablope]

What do you think my answer is to that question?

Why bother to ask it then?

You are the one who brought it up…so I asked…why do protestants have a different canon?

Should there be only one or two?

 

[pablope]

That doesn’t answer my question.

How do you know the church made an “infallible” proclamation regarding the canon?

who made the proclamation?

And was the proclamation for whom? The whole church? A single diocese?

 

[Henree]

But who did God give this authority to?

Assumes God had to give authority to compile the Scripture.

Did God give the Assyrians authority to come against Israel, or did He simply direct them to do so by His own authority?

 

[pablope]

I’ll take it then that the list can’t be produced; therefore, it doesn’t exist.

It can…you can get it started.

As I said…we do not need a list…the HS protects the Church from teaching error on faith and morals.

These infallible statements are alive in the Church in how it teaches, how it worships, how it lives and proclaims the gospel.

 

[Henree]

who made the proclamation?

And was the proclamation for whom? The whole church? A single diocese?

I know who made the proclamation. That isn’t the question.

The question is, how do you know that any “infallible” proclamation is indeed “infallible?”

 

[pablope]

Assumes God had to give authority to compile the Scripture.

Did God give the Assyrians authority to come against Israel, or did He simply direct them to do so by His own authority?

We are talking about Scirpture…now assyrians…so answer the question.

 

[Henree]

It can…you can get it started.

As I said…we do not need a list…the HS protects the Church from teaching error on faith and morals.

These infallible statements are alive in the Church in how it teaches, how it worships, how it lives and proclaims the gospel.

See post #45.

 

[Sacredheart1208]

It worries them because they misunderstand the concept. They believe, implicitly, that the Church is infallible when they believe that the Bible is inerrant, but seem to have a hard time connecting the dots between the canonization of Scripture and anything else the Church teaches. The fact is that the Church made an infallible proclamation when it canonized Scripture and the Holy Spirit remains with the Church in protecting it from error in all other matters of faith and morals.

Peter or the Popes actions or what they say are not infallible here is when they are infallible

“What is claimed for the pope is infallibility merely, not impeccability or inspiration (see above under I).
the infallibility claimed for the pope is the same in its nature, scope, and extent as that which the Church as a whole possesses; his ex cathedra teaching does not have to be ratified by the Church’s in order to be infallible.
infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:
The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians, not merely in his private capacity as a theologian, preacher or allocutionist, nor in his capacity as a temporal prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome. It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Church universal.
Then it is only when, in this capacity, he teaches some doctrine of faith or morals that he is infallible (see below, IV).
Further it must be sufficiently evident that he intends to teach with all the fullness and finality of his supreme Apostolic authority, in other words that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way, or to define it in the technical sense (see DEFINITION). These are well-recognized formulas by means of which the defining intention may be manifested.
Finally for an ex cathedra decision it must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church. To demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin. Theoretically, this intention might be made sufficiently clear in a papal decision which is addressed only to a particular Church; but in present day conditions, when it is so easy to communicate with the most distant parts of the earth and to secure a literally universal promulgation of papal acts, the presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.” -NewAdvent.org

 

[ufamtobie]

What makes you think Protestants are worried about papal “infallibility?”

Henree

I have read it here, and elsewhere that the Pope infallibility is a reason why they don’t enter the Catholic Church.

What is your reason or reasons why you don’t enter the Church Jesus Christ Established over 2000 years ago?

Your Brother in Christ.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Henree]

We are talking about Scirpture…now assyrians…so answer the question.

I did.

 

[ufamtobie]

Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God? How do you know this?
You had better hope that the Church made an infallible proclamation concerning Sacred Scripture or you cannot be sure if any certain sacred text found in the Bible is, truly, the inspired word of God. You only have the Catholic Church’s word for it, nothing else.

Amen Amen.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Henree]

Henree

I have read it here, and elsewhere that the Pope infallibility is a reason why they don’t enter the Catholic Church.

That’s probably not because they’re worried about the notion of papal infallibility, but because they reject it.

ufamtobie:

What is your reason or reasons why you don’t enter the Church Jesus Christ Established over 2000 years ago?

I’m in it.

ufamtobie:

Your Brother in Christ.

See? Even you know that I’m in it.

 

[ufamtobie]

That’s probably not because they’re worried about the notion of papal infallibility, but because they reject it.

I’m in it.

See? Even you know that I’m in it.

Henree,

You are my brother In Christ because you are saved by the Catholic Church, However, you are a brother outside looking into the Church Jesus Christ established, and I pray one day you will receive the full Grace to be in.

Reject it? Wow thats even worse than being “worried” Henree, do you Reject it as well?

Ufam Tobie

 

[SteveVH]

I’ll take it then that the list can’t be produced; therefore, it doesn’t exist.

It is not as if a list of infallible statements is going to produce a variety of doctrines and beliefs hitherto unknown. With the exception of the doctrines concerning Mary’s immaculate conception and her assumption, body and soul, into heaven, the infallible declarations are given to confirm and define doctrines and beliefs already held. If one wanted to choose a particular doctrine I am sure you will find many definitive statements concerning it which would have to be considered infallible.

 

[Henree]

It is not as if a list of infallible statements is going to produce a variety of doctrines and beliefs hitherto unknown. With the exception of the doctrines concerning Mary’s immaculate conception and her assumption, body and soul, into heaven, the infallible declarations are given to confirm and define doctrines and beliefs already held. If one wanted to choose a particular doctrine I am sure you will find many definitive statements concerning it which would have to be considered infallible.

Why would I have to consider those statements to be “infallible?”