protestants reading the bible are taking the catholic church's word for it.

[Proallen]

Yes all credit does go to the Holy Spirit, but we must remember that the Holy Spirit is the soul of the Catholic Church. Every thing the Church accomplished in any age is ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit, the soul of the Church. The two are in-separable just as you and your soul are one and the same in the person God created you to be. So it is with the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church.forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

This is what I couldn’t stand when I was Catholic. The Roman church and Mary come first before the Trinity and the Scriptures.

 

[Palaeologos]

You tell me to read history and YOU had to actually look up High School history…
Tell me how the English Reformation can trace their lineage to Luther…

Edward VI was a Lutheran in all but name. And there was a spectrum of influence among the English Reformers; some were Henrician Catholics, some Lutherans, some Calvinists, even some Zwinglians (I could name a certain Archbishop of Canterbury…). The English Reformation was influenced by the Continental Reformation, though it was a separate thing.

 

[traillius]

This is what I couldn’t stand when I was Catholic. The Roman church and Mary come first before the Trinity and the Scriptures.

You left the catholic church> Either you or the church is wrong. No one wants to be wrong, so you will call the church wrong. And this is just a misinterpretation, based on comfirmation bias, to support your supposition that the church is wrong. Regardless, your statement is not true. The creed, which is the statement of fundamental catholic belief, only contains one line about Mary, and one line about the catholic church. 99% of the creed is about one of the members of the trinity. And everything the church teaches is based on scripture " ignorance of scripture is ignorance of christ " I can’t remember the name, but he/she was definitely very catholic.

 

[Proallen]

You left the catholic church> Either you or the church is wrong. No one wants to be wrong, so you will call the church wrong. And this is just a misinterpretation, based on comfirmation bias, to support your supposition that the church is wrong. Regardless, your statement is not true. The creed, which is the statement of fundamental catholic belief, only contains one line about Mary, and one line about the catholic church. 99% of the creed is about one of the members of the trinity. And everything the church teaches is based on scripture " ignorance of scripture is ignorance of christ " I can’t remember the name, but he/she was definitely very catholic.

How can the Roman church be based upon Scripture when it claims to have written Scripture? Isn’t like that me basing my life upon my autobiography before I even write it??

 

[Cursilista]

How can the Roman church be based upon Scripture when it claims to have written Scripture? Isn’t like that me basing my life upon my autobiography before I even write it??

You couldnt have attended college, lol

 

[traillius]

How can the Roman church be based upon Scripture when it claims to have written Scripture? Isn’t like that me basing my life upon my autobiography before I even write it??

The church didn’t “write” scripture, individuals did. What the church did was get together, and decide which scripture was in concert with accepted christian teaching, or not. Those not in concert were excluded from the canon, as determined by the council of trent, and confirmed at later councils. Martin Luther simply re-assembled a different version of the bible, based on what he felt was important, rather than relying upon the church guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Palaeologos]

You couldnt have attended college, lol

Wait a minute, he has a point.

If the Church wrote the Bible, the Church cannot claim to be based on the Bible. The Church can be consonant with the Bible, and it can claim to teach nothing contradictory to the Bible. But to say the Church both wrote and is based on Scripture is to commit an act of question-begging every bit as egregious as the classic Evangelical statement “The Bible is the Word of God because it says so, right there in the Bible.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Wait a minute, he has a point.

If the Church wrote the Bible, the Church cannot claim to be based on the Bible. The Church can be consonant with the Bible, and it can claim to teach nothing contradictory to the Bible. But to say the Church both wrote and is based on Scripture is to commit an act of question-begging every bit as egregious as the classic Evangelical statement “The Bible is the Word of God because it says so, right there in the Bible.”

Is the church created and formed by God’s revelation to mankind, or does the Church cause God’s revelation to mankind?

 

[elvisman]

That’s funny. Hippo and Carthage became part of the Orthodox church didn’t they?

BUT - they didn’t declare any other books than what were declared at those councils, ummm . . . DID they?

 

[elvisman]

This is what I couldn’t stand when I was Catholic. The Roman church and Mary come first before the Trinity and the Scriptures.

**That’s inaccurate. Let’s just say it - that’s a lie. Nothing is placed before God in the Catholic Church (it’s not called the Roman church, but nice try).

First of all - the Church is Jesus’ Body - so it can’t come before the Trinity.
God somes first and foremost above eveything. BUT - to try to seperate Jesus and his Church goes against the very heart of the Scriptures.

In short - what you couldn’t stand about the Catholic Church was totally false.
Do your homework before making such ludicrous claims.

 

[Palaeologos]

Is the church created and formed by God’s revelation to mankind, or does the Church cause God’s revelation to mankind?

I would say the former. But “God’s revelation to mankind” isn’t just Scripture, and through the agency of the Church mankind has received God’s revelation. I say “through the agency of the Church” because God, not the Church, has caused the revelation.

Apropos of nothing, I’d say you’re probably the most Catholic Wisconsin Synod Lutheran I’ve ever come in contact with!

 

[TriuneUnity]

I would say the former. But “God’s revelation to mankind” isn’t just Scripture, and through the agency of the Church mankind has received God’s revelation. I say “through the agency of the Church” because God, not the Church, has caused the revelation.

Agreed on the point that God worked through the agency of human prophets and apostles to give revelation to mankind (with the exception of the Person of Christ who is the fullest revelation of God to man, and is Himself God). You hit the ultimate disagreement that exists between Protestants and Catholics, that being the issue of where God’s revelation to mankind exists in the Church today. No one disputes that God revealed Himself orally before that was written down.

Protestants argue that while not all revelation is Scripture, all the revelation we possess today is Scripture. The Church would have to demonstrate that the Tradition it possesses today is revelation from God. To Protestant thinking, Rome has not adequately done so. Any of the teachings that were handed on by the prophets and apostles are sufficiently contained within Scripture.

Apropos of nothing, I’d say you’re probably the most Catholic Wisconsin Synod Lutheran I’ve ever come in contact with!

I take that as a compliment! My roots are in the Missouri Synod, however. I landed in the WELS by circumstance, rather than doctrine (i.e., the LCMS churches in the area I am in now are blah).

 

[Palaeologos]

I take that as a compliment! My roots are in the Missouri Synod, however. I landed in the WELS by circumstance, rather than doctrine (i.e., the LCMS churches in the area I am in now are blah).

Well, that certainly makes sense. I’ll bet you’re the only person in the congregation making the sign of the cross when the pastor gives the blessing.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Well, that certainly makes sense. I’ll bet you’re the only person in the congregation making the sign of the cross when the pastor gives the blessing.

LOL absolutely. I never look around to see if any of the other members are giving me odd looks. I should do that sometime!

 

[Proallen]

You couldnt have attended college, lol

Not the one you didn’t go to anyway.

 

[robdaddyf]

You couldn’t have attended college.

Proallen, it is time to get off your paper high-horse and say something of substance instead of crying “bully” or taking the opposite approach and being one.

 

[robdaddyf]

This is what I couldn’t stand when I was Catholic. The Roman church and Mary come first before the Trinity and the Scriptures.

Now this is a ridiculous statement and it is pretty clear you weren’t properly catechized. I’m sorry.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Oh good grief.

OK.

There should be no argument that somehow humans were involved in the process of adjucating the canon. I mean somehow, somewhere, somebody or some folks had to decide that Hebrews was in and 1 Clement was out. Now we can have a debate on how this happened and how easy this process was, but the fact remains that humans were involved in this process.

However,

This was not a case of humans deciding for God what the Bible would look like. This certainly was settled in heaven and God was just allowing man to join him in this process.

God certainly uses humans in His work, even today this happens. This does not mean that humans should take the praise and glory for this. When this happens it is just man joining God in what He is doing and all praise goes back to Him.

Just because God uses humans in one branch of Christianity, it does not mean this branch of Christianity is superior in any way.

It is true that the apostolic church at some point adopted the name Catholic for itself. This apostolic church later divided into multiple organizations. When this happens according to logical rules of inheritance, all child organizations inherit from the parent (obviously certain attributes like name can only be inherited by one child).

So the folks that were involved in adjucating the canon are logically common ancesters to all of us.

So there is absolutely no basis in all of this for one organization to make boasts for itself in this. In fact it does not seem becoming and fitting at all.

Do we have a question here are did I muss it.I can not find any question

 

[elvisman]

Now this is a ridiculous statement and it is pretty clear you weren’t properly catechized. I’m sorry.

I wouldn’t expect a response.
He never responded to my retort to his stunningly ignorant comments in post #90.

 

[Karmartia]

It’s just hard to take hearing the CC did this and the CC did that while not mentioning the Holy Spirit at all. ALL the credit goes to the Holy Spirit, IMO, so at the very least, He should get the ‘top billing’ and not you or I or any church including the CC.

You’re right, the Holy Spirit always gets “top-billing.” It’s not our fault that the Holy Spirit chose to take up residence with the Holy Catholic Church.