A
allischalmers
Guest
Don’t it say somewhere in the Bible to worship God by playing instruments? I believe it does.
- Status
Andrew,
I believe they would see the continuing faith in Christ Jesus as risen Lord in Lutheranism. They may not recognize our traditions, or yours, or that of any of us.
I think a more interesting question might be, would we be willing to listen to what they tell us, in addition to scripture and the early councils, of the faith of the apostolic era and the early undivided Church?
Jon
N
Nine_Two
Guest
You’ll have to show me where. But you ignored the second point.
C
ConfusedTim
Guest
i think they would look with dismay at the current situation within Christianity and wonder how it got to the point were there were so many varieties of churches and no apparent unity. Because of the varying interpretations of what the bible means we have thousands of pastor popes all with their own take on what scripture means. To an outsider (muslim, atheist, etc) we are all making it up as we go along and if we cant agree ourselves on what Christianity is all about how can we convince others?
They apostles would be sad that some people have had to redefined the “church” from a visible body to a spiritual collection of believers with a wide variety of doctrinal views - some churches believing that baptism is for the young and others for the old. Some believing that baptism washes away our sins and others that it is merely a symbol. The Eucharist being viewed as the true body and blood of Jesus by one group and others saying that again its a symbol.
Ultimately, i think they and Jesus would be very sad at what has transpired.
They apostles would be sad that some people have had to redefined the “church” from a visible body to a spiritual collection of believers with a wide variety of doctrinal views - some churches believing that baptism is for the young and others for the old. Some believing that baptism washes away our sins and others that it is merely a symbol. The Eucharist being viewed as the true body and blood of Jesus by one group and others saying that again its a symbol.
Ultimately, i think they and Jesus would be very sad at what has transpired.
K
kcmekim
Guest
They would if they compared it with scripture.
Yes and no. Yes, because we consider them brothers in Christ and would want to have fellowship with them and, because, while their extra-Biblical opinions aren’t inspired, they are instructive and so we hope that they would approve.
No, in the sense that they’re just men and we get our doctrine from scripture, not from men. If they did disagree with us, we would certainly welcome them to make a case from scripture, but it wouldn’t carry any more weight than anyone else.
Seriously? Are you new here? You’ve got to know by now that no Catholic here is going to pass up a chance to attack us.
K
kkoleon
Guest
funny how one becomes an member of the orthodox church. i was born into the greek orthodox church but i am now catholic.
D
dzheremi
Guest
If it is true that no Catholic here ever passes up an opportunity to “attack” Protestants (I’m surprised you can comfortably use such absolutist language when you’ve only been here for 8 days), then that’s all the more reason to thank Harpazo for specifically asking all involved not to do that,
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
If I’m not mistaken, the earliest church was found in excavations of Dura-Europos (Syria) and was dated (approximately) at 230-250 A.D., and it was a “house church.” Churches per se weren’t built until Constantine. So the Apostles and early martyrs would by all means find any of our physical buildings, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox, as unrecognizable… or, ironically, resembling the pagan temples of their day. [egad]
As far as faith - I suspect they would find some things awesome, and some things terribly sad. As well as communication technologies have advanced, we still manage to spend more time tearing apart than building up. We are less community-oriented (at least in the U.S.) and much more individualistic and autonomous. American Christians tend to equate patriotism & politics with faith - somethings that the Apostles and martyrs would find abhorrent. They might be tempted - as were the first monastics - to see our relative security and comfortable living akin to joining the powers and principalities of the world which were (and are) the greatest enemies of the Church… and they would run away from human society and find solitude in the deserts and mountains.
And then we could relive Donatism, Arianism… you get the idea.
History rarely repeats itself. But it CAN rhyme.
K
kcmekim
Guest
And I’m surprised at the number of times I, my church, and my religion have been attacked in the last eight days.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
I have found many Catholics here who engage in discussions with Protestants in a respectful way. There are some Catholics who do bash Protestants, just as there are some Protestants who hit the forums with “guns blazing,” insulting Catholics as much as they can, as fast as they can. It goes both ways. “Stirring the pot” on the bashing issue doesn’t help anyone.
In Christ,
Anna
J
jmcrae
Guest
You do realize that they wrote the Scriptures, right?
Do you know where the Bible came from?
Even though these are the very same men who wrote that same Bible that you consider to be authoritative? How is it that these men’s writings (the Scriptures) have authority for you, but not their statements or their practices?
If your boss writes you a memo and you feel bound to obey the memo, shouldn’t you feel even more bound to obey, if the boss comes to you and speaks to you in person? How do you think he would react if you were to say, “Well, it’s not in the form of a memo, so I don’t need to do as you tell me to do”?
J
jmcrae
Guest
I don’t think the OP was asking about the appearance of the buildings, but rather, the structure of the worshipping community, with Bishops, priests, deacons, and lay people, with the praying community of hermits, monks, nuns, etc., and things like the practice of the liturgy, the Sacraments, and so on - how recognizable would the structure of your local community, and its liturgy and other practices be, to the Apostles and their immediate successors?
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
kcmekim: I am very interested in hearing your answers to jmcrae’s questions.
Anna
K
kcmekim
Guest
Did you bother to read my post?
Yes.
One is inspired, the other is not.
I think he would say, “Excellent. I’m happy that you know the difference between inspired scripture and the opinions of men”.How do you think he would react if you were to say, “Well, it’s not in the form of a memo, so I don’t need to do as you tell me to do”?
J
jmcrae
Guest
Yes, I did. You seem to believe that there is something “magical” about words being written down.
Why? Both come from the same source - the Apostles of Jesus Christ. It is the Apostles who are inspired of God; not the ink, or the parchment.
You have an interesting boss. Mine would say, “Do as I tell you, regardless of the mode in which I tell it to you, or be fired.”
How are their written-down “opinions” more inspired than their spoken “opinions”?
G
GottaGo12345678
Guest
I understand why you are struggling with God; i hope and pray that God wins should He chose.Why to Rome when Harpazo is an Orthodox inquirer? Also, that’s some real Christian love, I’ll tell ya…“I dunno, but YOUR church is definitely full of it!” Uh-huh…
C
Ceil-1
Guest
I don’t understand how some of the more fundamentalist Christians can be so sure of themselves.
I don’t know any student who would consider his textbook an accurate example of the real thing. And let’s face it, the Scriptures are obscure at best. They deal with the interior dispositions, not the “smells and bells”. Unfortunately, along with the “smells and bells” went the theology.
I find it all very confusing that our complacent brothers and sisters can compare themselves to those holy people who fasted continuously, prayed constantly, lived as refugees and died horrible deaths. Modern Catholics are no better in that regard.
I like the comment made a while back, I’m sorry, I don’t know who, that the martyrs would recognize the Church in the third world. And I believe Confused Tim is correct, Jesus is very unhappy with the current situation, if our contemporary visionaries are to be believed. In fact, popular Catholic piety is pretty much banking on the fact that He is ready to bring a great chastisement upon us. And welll-deserved it is, too. I pray for mercy.
I don’t know any student who would consider his textbook an accurate example of the real thing. And let’s face it, the Scriptures are obscure at best. They deal with the interior dispositions, not the “smells and bells”. Unfortunately, along with the “smells and bells” went the theology.
I find it all very confusing that our complacent brothers and sisters can compare themselves to those holy people who fasted continuously, prayed constantly, lived as refugees and died horrible deaths. Modern Catholics are no better in that regard.
I like the comment made a while back, I’m sorry, I don’t know who, that the martyrs would recognize the Church in the third world. And I believe Confused Tim is correct, Jesus is very unhappy with the current situation, if our contemporary visionaries are to be believed. In fact, popular Catholic piety is pretty much banking on the fact that He is ready to bring a great chastisement upon us. And welll-deserved it is, too. I pray for mercy.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
What exactly is it that you think makes the scripture inspired?
I mean my answer would be that it was written by men who were filled with the Holy Spirit and had great discernment regarding the will of God.
But what do you say?
K
kcmekim
Guest
The Bible says that all scriptre is God-breathed.
M
MDK
Guest
Why don’t you believe Christ? I do.
Actually, Peter would be very pleased with what is taught by the Catholic Church. God is pleased with what His Church teaches. He’s just not very pleased with all the people who don’t listen to and obey His teachings given to us through His one Church.
Anyone who believes the Catholic Church has gone astray, then cannot believe Christ who said the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church, founded with Peter as visible head. I believe Christ.
Ignorance of the Catholic Church is ignorance of Christ. Sadly, many are ignornant of God’s Church, the Catholic Church with the office of Peter as Prime Minister for the earthly part of the King’s Kingdom. Trusting Christ is trusting His teachings through His Church. If you don’t trust the doctrines and Sacraments in the Catholic Church, then you don’t trust Christ.
- Status