Protestants Regarding (Luke 7:48) & (John 20: 22-23)

[ufamtobie]

(Luke 6: 46) Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not put into practice what I teach you?

(Luke 7:48) He said to her, ‘‘Your sins are forgiven’’; at this His fellow guests began to ask among themselves, “WHO IS THIS THAT HE EVEN FORGIVES SINS?”

Protestants, the Fellow guests above did not truly believe that Jesus Christ could forgive sins, Because they only thought that God the Father could only do such a thing, but now Jesus even goes a bit farther in (John 20: 22-23) here He has given his Apostles the Authority to forgive mens sins as well…

Imagine if these guests were also present when Jesus Christ said to His Apostles in (John 20:22-23) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Protestants, what would these Guests say about Jesus Christ NOW giving Authority to men, (His selected men to care for His Church) to forgive Sins or Retain sins? Again, what would these Guests think? These guests would not believe it! Just Like you Protestants don’t believe that the Successors of the Apostles the Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Popes Can’t forgive Mens sins, But How Wrong You Protestants and these Guests Are!

The Point is, now that the Original Apostles died and now are in Heaven, does this mean that the Authority that Jesus Christ gave to His Apostles/CHURCH to Forgive mens sins or retain them is no longer valid? …Truth is, this Authority that Jesus Christ gave to the original Apostles and as time goes on these Original Apostles by the laying on of hands to their Successors to forgive sins or retain them continues to this very day and it is Valid as Valid can be until the End of time.

This is One of the many reasons why Jesus Christ left His One Church, and this His One Church, continues throughout generations because of the Successor of the Apostles. Amen Because without Successors the gates of Hell would of prevailed over His Church and you Know that can never happen for Jesus Christ Promised that hell will never prevail. Amen

Protestants, there is a Church where you truly can hear that Your sins our Forgiven or retained, this is how Jesus Christ want us to do in order to have our sins Forgiven or retained, so if you have a problem with me saying this, mind you, your problem is not with me, but with Jesus Christ Himself, and I promise you, you won’t win this debate.

(Luke 6: 46) Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not put into practice what I teach you?

Ufamtobie

 

[Anthony_Joseph]

ufamtobie,

Your points are well thought out and logical. The problem is no protestant will engage them logically. They can not and remain protestant. I know because I just spent a year and a half debating someone who agreed logically with all my points (including yours) and would not admit she was wrong. I’m not saying don’t open this kettle of worms, but the only people who this will sway are the deeply academic who have been steeped in Thomistic philosophy and either came to their faith or are coming to the Church through reason. Many are blinded by pride and hurt. Especially the Lapsed Catholics who left the Church after having been hurt some how.

Our problem is that we want to evangelize the protestant world yet they get angry when we do. We’re like dancers who want to dance with new partners but we can’t ask them to lead, all we can do is hope they eventually take a chance and try leading. Then when they start asking questions, we know its time to start gradually showing them the depths of beauties of the Catholic faith.

By the way, if you read the thread on fallen away Catholics, you’ll get a lot of insight into the main modes of protestant thought. Also the thread on why Baptists hate Catholics is a good one.

Pax Christi

 

[ufamtobie]

Anthony,

We can not stop proclaiming the truth, the truth is truth, wether they believe it or not, wether they want to listen or not. I believe with all my heart that the Lord has brought these Protestants to CAF to learn the truth, and we must repeat the truth over and over again and again. Let us sound like a broken record that repeats and repeats over and over again this is our work that we must complete, or we ourselves may fall under the Lords wrath, we must spread the Gospel, even if its to no avail, we still have to do it, but here at CAF is someone Greater than us and that is the Holy Spirit and He will be the Ultimate One to Finish the Work to bring them safely Home. Amen

Ufamtobie

 

[Jesness]

I dunno if we ourselves actually have the ability to forgive sins. Jesus didn’t tell his followers to forgive sins until they’d recieved the Holy Spirit after his resurection. Is it us or Christ * in* us that forgives sins?

 

[Wesley7]

I can look it up somewhere in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Lapey]

I dunno if we ourselves actually have the ability to forgive sins. Jesus didn’t tell his followers to forgive sins until they’d recieved the Holy Spirit after his resurection. Is it us or Christ * in* us that forgives sins?

As are all good works, it is Christ in us. Not all are authorized to forgive sins, only those ordained with the Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Just as in baptism, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

The prist says after you confess your sins to him, “I absolve you in the name of the F, S & HS.”

The Priest forgives in the name of the trinity.

 

[Jesness]

As are all good works, it is Christ in us. Not all are authorized to forgive sins, only those ordained with the Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Are you talking about all Christians when you say ‘priesthood,’ or only of those who are actutally ordained ministers? As I recall, all that are baptized into Christ are considered part of a ‘Royal Priesthood.’ In which case, thank you for clarifying; and, I agree that we can forgive sins.

 

[Erich]

Are you talking about all Christians when you say ‘priesthood,’ or only of those who are actutally ordained ministers? As I recall, all that are baptized into Christ are considered part of a ‘Royal Priesthood.’ In which case, thank you for clarifying; and, I agree that we can forgive sins.

CCC 1268 has this to say about baptism:

The baptized have become “living stones” to be “built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood.” By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light.” Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

Whenever we serve God (for example, by worshipping Him) we participate in this common / universal priesthood of all believers. But, it is the role of the ministerial priesthood (by virtue of Holy Orders) to serve the people of God (for example, by offering Mass, hearing confessions, etc.) In fact, one of the Pope’s titles is “Servant of the Servants of God”

This article goes into more detail about why we have a ministerial priesthood.

And this article explains by what authority Catholic priests receive their Holy Orders – and why a congregation’s vote cannot suffice, Scripturally speaking, to appoint a man as “pastor,” since the congregation (of inferior authority) cannot confer superior authority upon a man.

 

[Dokimas]

Your points are well thought out and logical. The problem is no protestant will engage them logically. They can not and remain protestant. I know because I just spent a year and a half debating someone who agreed logically with all my points (including yours) and would not admit she was wrong. I’m not saying don’t open this kettle of worms, but the only people who this will sway are the deeply academic who have been steeped in Thomistic philosophy and either came to their faith or are coming to the Church through reason. Many are blinded by pride and hurt. Especially the Lapsed Catholics who left the Church after having been hurt some how.

Maybe she agreed with the verses you mention but not your understanding. That happens to me regularly here. The verse in the original posts are wonderful verses. I’m not convinced the OP has the correct understanding of the verses.

Our problem is that we want to evangelize the protestant world yet they get angry when we do. We’re like dancers who want to dance with new partners but we can’t ask them to lead, all we can do is hope they eventually take a chance and try leading. Then when they start asking questions, we know its time to start gradually showing them the depths of beauties of the Catholic faith.

I need evangelizing? Okay, evangelize me, please.

By the way, if you read the thread on fallen away Catholics, you’ll get a lot of insight into the main modes of protestant thought. Also the thread on why Baptists hate Catholics is a good one.

No thank you. I’m not interested.

 

[JonNC]

(Luke 6: 46) Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not put into practice what I teach you?

(Luke 7:48) He said to her, ‘‘Your sins are forgiven’’; at this His fellow guests began to ask among themselves, “WHO IS THIS THAT HE EVEN FORGIVES SINS?”

Protestants, the Fellow guests above did not truly believe that Jesus Christ could forgive sins, Because they only thought that God the Father could only do such a thing, but now Jesus even goes a bit farther in (John 20: 22-23) here He has given his Apostles the Authority to forgive mens sins as well…

Imagine if these guests were also present when Jesus Christ said to His Apostles in (John 20:22-23) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Protestants, what would these Guests say about Jesus Christ NOW giving Authority to men, (His selected men to care for His Church) to forgive Sins or Retain sins? Again, what would these Guests think? These guests would not believe it! Just Like you Protestants don’t believe that the Successors of the Apostles the Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Popes Can’t forgive Mens sins, But How Wrong You Protestants and these Guests Are!

The Point is, now that the Original Apostles died and now are in Heaven, does this mean that the Authority that Jesus Christ gave to His Apostles/CHURCH to Forgive mens sins or retain them is no longer valid? …Truth is, this Authority that Jesus Christ gave to the original Apostles and as time goes on these Original Apostles by the laying on of hands to their Successors to forgive sins or retain them continues to this very day and it is Valid as Valid can be until the End of time.

This is One of the many reasons why Jesus Christ left His One Church, and this His One Church, continues throughout generations because of the Successor of the Apostles. Amen Because without Successors the gates of Hell would of prevailed over His Church and you Know that can never happen for Jesus Christ Promised that hell will never prevail. Amen

Protestants, there is a Church where you truly can hear that Your sins our Forgiven or retained, this is how Jesus Christ want us to do in order to have our sins Forgiven or retained, so if you have a problem with me saying this, mind you, your problem is not with me, but with Jesus Christ Himself, and I promise you, you won’t win this debate.

(Luke 6: 46) Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not put into practice what I teach you?

Ufamtobie

Lutheran Confession/Holy Absolution:

P: If we say we have no sins, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

C: But if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A: We confess unto you that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned aginst you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen

P: Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us, and for His sake, forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Suggested format of Private Confession / Holy Absolution, which appears in Lutheran service books, from Luther’s Small Catechism
can be found here:
bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#confession

Lutherans recognize the power to bind and loose.

Jon

 

[Lapey]

Are you talking about all Christians when you say ‘priesthood,’ or only of those who are actutally ordained ministers? As I recall, all that are baptized into Christ are considered part of a ‘Royal Priesthood.’ In which case, thank you for clarifying; and, I agree that we can forgive sins.

Validly ordained men through the laying on of hands by the succesors of the apostles, the bishops.

 

[Erich]

As a **called **and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Suggested format of Private Confession / Holy Absolution, which appears in Lutheran service books, from Luther’s Small Catechism
can be found here:
bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#confession

Lutherans recognize the power to bind and loose.

Called by whom? From By What Authority?

[W]hen Heb. 5:4 addresses the office of High Priest, it is the office of High Shepherd, High Pastoribus. Clearly, the restriction of Heb. 5:4 applies to all “shepherds,” all “priests,” all “pastors”: the office, because of its solemn duties and grave responsibilities (James 3:1), cannot be taken upon oneself, but rather, one must be called to this office by God.

The same, of course, goes for “ambassadors.” The dictionary defines the word to mean, an “authorized messenger or representative” - thus, an ambassador must be sent. In fact, the word “apostle” is Greek for “sent one.” To this we can add the words of St. Paul, who says that preachers must be “sent.” (Rom. 10:15)

Now, what does “to be sent” mean, except that someone in authority over you has conferred the privilege and authority upon you? In fact, it goes without saying that the one who confers the authority must be superior in authority to the one being commissioned, since no one can confer that which he does not possess himself.

In other words, a congregation’s vote cannot suffice, Scripturally speaking, to appoint a man as “pastor,” since the congregation (of inferior authority) cannot confer superior authority upon a man.
…
Biblically, there is only one way to become a legitimate ambassador of Christ, or “pastor”: by appointment from a superior. This can be done in two ways: being commissioned by a legitimate ambassador (apostolic succession), or being called directly by God. We saw examples of this in Scripture already: Ss. Timothy and Titus were appointed to their positions of authority by succession, Moses was appointed to his position directly by God, with no human mediation.
…
“But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.” (John 5:31-36)

This last case should truly give pause to any professed follower of Christ who claims to have been called as a Shepherd of God’s flock. Where are the miracles that must attend your ministry as verification of your extraordinary calling? If even Jesus submitted to this proof-test, how can any mere man exempt himself from this same test, unless he wishes to say he is greater than even Jesus?

Here, then, is the summary of what we find in Scripture: no man can take the responsibility or title of “pastor” to himself. Rather, he must be sent by God, either indirectly (via succession), or directly (via extraordinary calling). If he claims the latter, his mission must be accompanied by miracles, signs and wonders as proof of his Divine vocation.

 

[JonNC]

Called by whom? From By What Authority?

By the authority of the Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod, in my case. Our congregation has no authority to “vote” for a pastor who is not ordained within the LCMS. I don’t know what other communions do. You’ll have to ask them.

When our parish had a vacancy some years ago, the office of our synod bishop (referred to as district president for some strange reason), was directly involved in our call process, and we received a pastor from the seminary, who was then ordained.

While the following document from the USCCB is more directly about the ELCA, it has far more accurate information about Lutheran orders than the apologist you quoted.
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml#6
Jon

 

[Erich]

While the following document from the USCCB is more directly about the ELCA, it has far more accurate information about Lutheran orders than the apologist you quoted.
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml#6

I would expect that, since that document is directly from the U.S. Lutheran - Roman Catholic dialog. Is it just the ELCA that participates? Or do the LCMS and WELS also participate?

I didn’t read the document in its entirety (Print Preview said it’s 65 pages long), but from the parts I did read I couldn’t help but think that the LCMS and WELS (and likely a good humber of the “micro-synods” listed at pastorzip.org/uslutheranlinx.html – until I came across that site I had no idea there were so many different ones!) are probably theologically closer to the Catholic Church than to the ELCA, especially in light of recent ELCA goings-on.

 

[JonNC]

=Erich;6758981]I would expect that, since that document is directly from the U.S. Lutheran - Roman Catholic dialog. Is it just the ELCA that participates? Or do the LCMS and WELS also participate?

I’m fairly sure WELS did not. LCMS, much to my chagrin, moves in and out of these kinds of dialogues, though they have been more consistent of late.

I didn’t read the document in its entirety (Print Preview said it’s 65 pages long), but from the parts I did read I couldn’t help but think that the LCMS and WELS (and likely a good humber of the “micro-synods” listed at pastorzip.org/uslutheranlinx.html – until I came across that site I had no idea there were so many different ones!) are probably theologically closer to the Catholic Church than to the ELCA, especially in light of recent ELCA goings-on

The document isn’t, but that portion of the USCCB site probably is. As to your question, while the ELCA seems far more open to dialogue, you are right that in some very obvious areas - who can be a priest/pastor, etc. - LCMS seems, at least to me far better positioned. The only problem in the LCMS is that we have some who, like some Catholics, just don’t believe in dialogue, but are waiting for a statement from Rome that Luther was right, after all, and Rome was wrong. That wait has been 500 years long, and that approach will mean at least another 500 years.

Jon

 

[Padrej]

As are all good works, it is Christ in us. Not all are authorized to forgive sins, only those ordained with the Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Just as in baptism, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

The prist says after you confess your sins to him, “I absolve you in the name of the F, S & HS.”

The Priest forgives in the name of the trinity.

The highlighted portion is where the major divide is. In the Catholic church you have a Priest who is given the authority to forgive. A protestant is going to look at that and say, OK the Bible also speaks of the Priesthood of ALL believers. Jesus also told his followers that if YOU do not forgive others you cannot expect to be forgiven. So I could not go to a priest and say, I cannot forgive what my brother Tom did to me I need you to absolve him for me; I would have to forgive what my brother Tom did.

The purpose of confession is to have the priest absolve YOUR sins, but you would also have to forgive the other person who has wronged you. As Anglicans we have priests who are also given the authority to absolve. Not all persons choose to confess directly to one of us, SO they go to the one who can, Jesus Christ. The Bible assures a Protestant that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive. The Bible does not tell us, If I confess my sins to a priest only, God is faithful and just to forgive. We also look at the “confess your sins to one another” line that I have always heard the Catholic church uses as one of its basis for the sacrament of confession and say that we can do literally just that as there are times that we have to get things off of our chest. (Now nobody PLEASE attack if I have misquoted the confess sins to one another as one of the basis as this is what I have always heard; gentle correction is appreciated).

 

[Padrej]

ufamtobie,

Your points are well thought out and logical. The problem is no protestant will engage them logically. They can not and remain protestant. I know because I just spent a year and a half debating someone who agreed logically with all my points (including yours) and would not admit she was wrong. I’m not saying don’t open this kettle of worms, but the only people who this will sway are the deeply academic who have been steeped in Thomistic philosophy and either came to their faith or are coming to the Church through reason. Many are blinded by pride and hurt. Especially the Lapsed Catholics who left the Church after having been hurt some how.

Our problem is that we want to evangelize the protestant world yet they get angry when we do. We’re like dancers who want to dance with new partners but we can’t ask them to lead, all we can do is hope they eventually take a chance and try leading. Then when they start asking questions, we know its time to start gradually showing them the depths of beauties of the Catholic faith.

By the way, if you read the thread on fallen away Catholics, you’ll get a lot of insight into the main modes of protestant thought. Also the thread on why Baptists hate Catholics is a good one.

Pax Christi

May I suggest that if you and ufamtobie want to convert Protestants that you seek things that a major similarities rather than the major differences. If you get a person to agree with your side that we have a great deal in common then it will be easier to explain what is the difference. This about how Protestants evangelize with the most success, it is when we find the common ground and then use it as a springboard for the other things. With all due respect this would be the most logical approach rather then saying or trying to show that Protestants are wrong, this way it would not cause one to dig heels in and frustrate either party.

 

[JonNC]

The highlighted portion is where the major divide is. In the Catholic church you have a Priest who is given the authority to forgive. A protestant is going to look at that and say, OK the Bible also speaks of the Priesthood of ALL believers. Jesus also told his followers that if YOU do not forgive others you cannot expect to be forgiven. So I could not go to a priest and say, I cannot forgive what my brother Tom did to me I need you to absolve him for me; I would have to forgive what my brother Tom did.

The purpose of confession is to have the priest absolve YOUR sins, but you would also have to forgive the other person who has wronged you. As Anglicans we have priests who are also given the authority to absolve. Not all persons choose to confess directly to one of us, SO they go to the one who can, Jesus Christ. The Bible assures a Protestant that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive. The Bible does not tell us, If I confess my sins to a priest only, God is faithful and just to forgive. We also look at the “confess your sins to one another” line that I have always heard the Catholic church uses as one of its basis for the sacrament of confession and say that we can do literally just that as there are times that we have to get things off of our chest. (Now nobody PLEASE attack if I have misquoted the confess sins to one another as one of the basis as this is what I have always heard; gentle correction is appreciated).

Padrej,
I am always impressed with the Anglicans who come here, not the least of which you and Fr. Mark Brown. And I note that both of you are either considering or walking the Pope’s bridge to unity with Rome for Anglicans. God’s blessings on you, and thanks for sharing the way you do.

I just wanted to note that, while what you say in the bolded is true (even in the Lord’s prayer we ask God to forgive our sins), the special blessing of confession is the pronouncement of absolution. When a pastor/confessor pronounces absolution, it eliminates doubt and offers comfort to the one confessing. It is one thing to believe He is faith and just to forgive, but even more wonderful to hear it pronounced by His called and ordained servant (the issue of orders notwithstanding).

I might also add that, at least for Lutherans, there is no confusion between the Priesthood of all believers, and the special priesthood, called and ordained.

Jon

 

[Padrej]

Padrej,
I am always impressed with the Anglicans who come here, not the least of which you and Fr. Mark Brown. And I note that both of you are either considering or walking the Pope’s bridge to unity with Rome for Anglicans. God’s blessings on you, and thanks for sharing the way you do.

I just wanted to note that, while what you say in the bolded is true (even in the Lord’s prayer we ask God to forgive our sins), the special blessing of confession is the pronouncement of absolution. When a pastor/confessor pronounces absolution, it eliminates doubt and offers comfort to the one confessing. It is one thing to believe He is faith and just to forgive, but even more wonderful to hear it pronounced by His called and ordained servant (the issue of orders notwithstanding).

I might also add that, at least for Lutherans, there is no confusion between the Priesthood of all believers, and the special priesthood, called and ordained.

Jon

We Anglicans do recognize also the special priesthood called ordained. We too feel that when the pastor pronounces absolution that it is for comfort and does eliminate doubt. Theo only drawback I see is that without a form of penance that many sin and leave it there with the absolution. To me the penance also helps in the healing process. For example you broke a window playing ball. The person whose house your ball invaded through the window can forgive but you still have to pay the penalty and replace the window.
I am reminded of when Bill Clinton had his “thing” with Monica Lewinsky, he told the media who were hounding him, “I asked for forgiveness and yet you are still after me.” He like many today think that once you have been forgiven that there needs not be a penalty.
Just like if a person has an affair in the marriage and gets a sexually transmitted disease; they can be forgiven but they still must pay the penalty as they will have the disease.

 

[JonNC]

We Anglicans do recognize also the special priesthood called ordained. We too feel that when the pastor pronounces absolution that it is for comfort and does eliminate doubt. Theo only drawback I see is that without a form of penance that many sin and leave it there with the absolution. To me the penance also helps in the healing process. For example you broke a window playing ball. The person whose house your ball invaded through the window can forgive but you still have to pay the penalty and replace the window.
I am reminded of when Bill Clinton had his “thing” with Monica Lewinsky, he told the media who were hounding him, “I asked for forgiveness and yet you are still after me.” He like many today think that once you have been forgiven that there needs not be a penalty.
Just like if a person has an affair in the marriage and gets a sexually transmitted disease; they can be forgiven but they still must pay the penalty as they will have the disease.

Hi Father,
When Jesus spoke with the adulturous woman, his command to her was, “go and sin no more.” Would you consider a penance, to do all you can to sin against God and man no more?

Jon