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Augustine3
Guest
“Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do” - 1 Corinthians 7:8
Does anything more need to be said?
Does anything more need to be said?
Protestants reject Paul's teaching on Married/Celibate Clergy in 1 Tim 3:2?
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rcwitness
Guest
Yes, because this doesn’t address all concerns.
Some Protestants have a genuine concern as to why it became “necessary” to be single in order to be a Christian priest.
The direct answer is (as JonNC said) it is a decision of the Church to choose celibacy as a practice.
What I would like to see, personally, is for married men with good reputation, being ordained into the priesthood. I think remaining where you are at the time of ordination is fine, but the need for priests is becoming too great for us not to open the field more.
My question to Protestants has been, why is it so rare to see a single minister in their churches?
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Bookcat
Guest
I remember so so so many years ago I was at a talk -given by a Protestant to mostly Protestants - and he noted rather well that “the Catholics are right” about this…
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rcwitness
Guest
But it’s not a “right or wrong” issue. It’s a discipline choice the Church made. And they can change it again, and again, or leave it.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
As a Catholic ex-Protestant, I may as well throw in my two bob’s worth.
The most outstanding pastor I met was a married man with six sons and a very Christian wife, who somehow managed to bring them all up as strong Christians, although one committed suicide due to manic-depression. This is despite, in his own words, “living below the poverty line for years!” and “nearly starving”. Bear in mind, he was my pastor for the whole nine years I was in his church.
He also managed to build up an inner city church (in his own words, “inner city church building is deadly”) from about eleven people to 150, which is the glass ceiling for a single pastor, on starvation wages and bringing up a family. Would he have made a good Catholic priest - possibly not, because he may not have had the gift of ceilbacy. Would he have made a good married Catholic priest - no doubt, with a streak of brilliance.
On the other hand, I can see why the Church might insist on celibate, single priests, especially if they’re going to shuffle them around from parish to parish every few years. I’ve been Catholic for about 20 years now, always stuck to the same parish (I’m not one for church hopping) and in that time we’ve had about five main priests, plus a number of short term interim priests.
I think the Church is missing out on a lot of talent by neglecting potential married priests… You’ve only got to look at the brilliant way some Protestant pastors shepherd their churches to see that.
There’s more than just Scriptural warrant in the church’s hardline attitude to married priests - I think some of it came out of abuses in the past when priests had wives, and in some cases mistresses.
Personally I don’t give a stuff if there’s a tradition of the apostles being continent or not with their wives, if they had any. As the old pastor remarked, according to one of his sons, “There’s traditions and there’s traditions.” I take some “traditions” with a grain of salt. I suppose that’s my ex-Protestant experience talking.
On the other hand, it is true that there don’t seem to be many single Protestant pastors. In some cases, pastors are “called” by the congregation (my wife’s Baptist tradition does that for example) and I suppose they wonder if a single applicant might be tempted to stray.
I also wonider if there isn’t a bit of an unconscious agenda at work eg. “If those Catholics insist on celibacy, we’d better make sure we don’t go down the same road!” and so there’s an unspoken rule their pastors must be married.
Frankly I think both sides could learn from the other - the Protestants could make more use of single pastors, especially as relief pastors who are more free to move around, and Catholics could make more use of those men who are married, but have all the gifts needed to be successful priests.
Scripture doesn’t take a hard line either way - it ***does ***insist on moral behaviour by those who are going to shepherd the sheep.
The most outstanding pastor I met was a married man with six sons and a very Christian wife, who somehow managed to bring them all up as strong Christians, although one committed suicide due to manic-depression. This is despite, in his own words, “living below the poverty line for years!” and “nearly starving”. Bear in mind, he was my pastor for the whole nine years I was in his church.
He also managed to build up an inner city church (in his own words, “inner city church building is deadly”) from about eleven people to 150, which is the glass ceiling for a single pastor, on starvation wages and bringing up a family. Would he have made a good Catholic priest - possibly not, because he may not have had the gift of ceilbacy. Would he have made a good married Catholic priest - no doubt, with a streak of brilliance.
On the other hand, I can see why the Church might insist on celibate, single priests, especially if they’re going to shuffle them around from parish to parish every few years. I’ve been Catholic for about 20 years now, always stuck to the same parish (I’m not one for church hopping) and in that time we’ve had about five main priests, plus a number of short term interim priests.
I think the Church is missing out on a lot of talent by neglecting potential married priests… You’ve only got to look at the brilliant way some Protestant pastors shepherd their churches to see that.
There’s more than just Scriptural warrant in the church’s hardline attitude to married priests - I think some of it came out of abuses in the past when priests had wives, and in some cases mistresses.
Personally I don’t give a stuff if there’s a tradition of the apostles being continent or not with their wives, if they had any. As the old pastor remarked, according to one of his sons, “There’s traditions and there’s traditions.” I take some “traditions” with a grain of salt. I suppose that’s my ex-Protestant experience talking.
On the other hand, it is true that there don’t seem to be many single Protestant pastors. In some cases, pastors are “called” by the congregation (my wife’s Baptist tradition does that for example) and I suppose they wonder if a single applicant might be tempted to stray.
I also wonider if there isn’t a bit of an unconscious agenda at work eg. “If those Catholics insist on celibacy, we’d better make sure we don’t go down the same road!” and so there’s an unspoken rule their pastors must be married.
Frankly I think both sides could learn from the other - the Protestants could make more use of single pastors, especially as relief pastors who are more free to move around, and Catholics could make more use of those men who are married, but have all the gifts needed to be successful priests.
Scripture doesn’t take a hard line either way - it ***does ***insist on moral behaviour by those who are going to shepherd the sheep.
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lanman87
Guest
We see singleness as being a specific calling and spiritual gift, like being called to be a pastor or missionary. As I heard someone put it, it is the gift nobody wants.
However, I do know of certain instances where a young person delayed dating so they could do mission work without encumbrance. As a matter of fact, I know a young girl who is oversees as a missionary right now who felt called to not get married until her time as a missionary is over.
Over time a “tradition” has developed in the Southern Baptist that the wife of the pastor is sort of a co-minister. Some wives embrace this role more than others and there is no rule, written or unwritten, about the role of the pastors wife in the church. But in practice the pastors wife usually does some sort of ministry. Particularly in small rural churches that don’t have the resources to pay several different ministers.
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rcwitness
Guest
Thank you bro,We see singleness as being a specific calling and spiritual gift, like being called to be a pastor or missionary. As I heard someone put it, it is the gift nobody wants.
However, I do know of certain instances where a young person delayed dating so they could do mission work without encumbrance. As a matter of fact, I know a young girl who is oversees as a missionary right now who felt called to not get married until her time as a missionary is over.
Over time a “tradition” has developed in the Southern Baptist that the wife of the pastor is sort of a co-minister. Some wives embrace this role more than others and there is no rule, written or unwritten, about the role of the pastors wife in the church. But in practice the pastors wife usually does some sort of ministry. Particularly in small rural churches that don’t have the resources to pay several different ministers.
But that actually didn’t address my question very much.
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lanman87
Guest
Your right I didn’t answer the question, I just rambled.
My guess is that it is a combination of cultural norms, not as many folks feeling “called” to be single, and the perceived need in many churches for the wife to be a co-minister.
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rcwitness
Guest
No problem, I understand
Is “the call from God” based on cultural norms, and feelings?
Isn’t the wife busy being a mother??? Oh, yeah… contraception. I almost forgot…
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lanman87
Guest
I don’t know but aren’t are callings from God overwhelming feeling and desire to do something or be something. Isn’t that why people become priest and monks and preachers and missionaries?No problem, I understand
Is “the call from God” based on cultural norms, and feelings?
Isn’t the wife busy being a mother??? Oh, yeah… contraception. I almost forgot…
I’ve heard preachers and missionaries describe “the calling” as “God put something on my heart that I just couldn’t shake and I knew if I wasn’t obedient that I would be miserable”.
However, my uneducated guess is that some of the ministers today do have a call to singleness but ignore it due to cultural norms. They are well aware that a single 35 year old man who has never been married will be suspected of being a homosexual or at the very least of being a little strange.
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James248
Guest
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rcwitness
Guest
I think it’s more love than feelings. Is there a Biblical example you could use?
Yes, I think that is a good way to say it
Yes, and maybe they would think Paul is strange.However, my uneducated guess is that some of the ministers today do have a call to singleness but ignore it due to cultural norms. They are well aware that a single 35 year old man who has never been married will be suspected of being a homosexual or at the very least of being a little strange.
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Bookcat
Guest
Sure it is.
It is about the value of celibacy (Paul promoted it very positively) vs rejecting Paul’s teaching…or even seeing our discipline of Celebacy for some as even evil.
The Protestant speaker was quite correct it saying that.
(of course some 30 years past…I do not recall exactly what he said
)
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rcwitness
Guest
Remember, St Peter had a wife.Sure it is.
It is about the value of celibacy (Paul promoted it very positively) vs rejecting Paul’s teaching…or even seeing our discipline of Celebacy for some as even evil.
The Protestant speaker was quite correct it saying that.
(of course some 30 years past…I do not recall exactly what he said
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James248
Guest
They lived as brother and sister. You saw my post, did you not?
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes he did.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The Bible only says he had a mother-in-law…implying his wife had died prior to becoming an Apostle.
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rcwitness
Guest
1 Cor. 9
Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas?
Foot note:9.5*wife:*Greek, a “woman,” a “sister.” This could mean either a woman who is a Christian or a wife who is a Christian. There were pious women who ministered to the apostles (Lk 8.3). As many of the apostles must have been married, they may have been ministered to by their wives, though it is possible they had left their wives in answer to the Lord’s command to leave all (Lk 18.28-29).
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Cephas wasn’t Peter.
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