Protestants Rejecting Catholicism

[SyroMalankara]

Hi LiamQ,

I have a really good point of my own I’d like to bring up to contribute to this discussion. As people here already pointed out, the Roman Catholic dogma and teachings surrounding Mary are sticking points.

I have before me a Catholic pamphlet labeled “Pray the Rosary Daily.” I open it up and come to a page that says “The Promises of Mary to those who pray the Rosary.” Promise #1 says “Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.”

As a Protestant, serving Mary in this context is perceived to be unbiblical because we can read that Jesus says to serve God only(Luke 4:8; Deut 6:13). We make sense of this conflict by concluding that Catholics have a man-made tradition that is not only unbiblical, it conflicts with the bible—Jesus’ command to serve God only—by having Mary ask catholics to serve her. How can a protestant who adheres to Sola Scriptura not perceive that as idolatry? Some even probably view this as unbiblical revelation by a deceiving spirit masquerading as Mary to lead catholic christians away from the one true God, or at least serve an idol/deceiving spirit alongside God. There is seen a precedent in Chronicals and 1 and 2Kings where Israel was led astray by idols and the same thing is perceived as happening again today.

Hope this helps provide more insight. I in no way am speaking on behalf of Protestants here.

This was a sticking point for me as a protestant for years—and still is. I’m still wrapping my head around this as I seek to convert to the Catholic Church.

Cyril - I’m going to assume that is your given name. It’s the name of a great Church father, as well.

It is quite fitting that you should bring up the verses about serving God alone. The prayers of the Rosary point to God alone, Mary is simply pointing in His direction.

I’d like to point out the folly - by using an analogy - in taking verses like the one you posted, and the commonly referenced ones protestants use incorrectly to dispute Catholicism.
Your screen name is “Cyril of Canada”. Cyril is a name derived from Greek Kyrios, which means “Lord”/“Master”. Does not the Bible state “call no man Master… call no man Father”? Your given/screen name goes against that very verse, if it is only meant to be read literally, with no context or deeper meaning.
(Of course, that is not what is meant, nor understood by the Church.)

 

[adf417]

all the quotes were from the linked article
did you read the article?

Nowhere did it say
Catholics leave the faith for a faith because they are “evangelical”,

Sorry I misunderstood you. It seemed as though that’s what you were saying, My bad!

Peace!!!

 

[wmscott]

I won’t say I see it as idolatry. I won’t even say it’s wrong but I won’t say I think it’s right either.

My question is rather. If one is going to put that many minutes or even hours for some into praying the rosary, why not pray to God/Jesus instead with that “time”?

If I were Catholic I’d have more a “cut out the middleman approach”

So as stated before the Rosary is a devotion and not mandatory to be a Catholic. As far as cutting out the middle man, did you read the PDF I attached titled the “Rosary Defined” in post #19?

 

[Reuben_J]

So as stated before the Rosary is a devotion and not mandatory to be a Catholic. As far as cutting out the middle man, did you read the PDF I attached titled the “Rosary Defined” in post #19?

Probably it helps to explain to Protestants what devotion means in the Catholic Church.

Advent says it like this:

*Devotion, in the language of ascetical writers, denotes a certain ardour of affection in the things of God, and even without any qualifying prefix it generally implies that this ardour is of a sensible character. On the other hand, by the term “devotions” in the plural, or “popular devotions”, we commonly understand those external practices of piety by which the devotion of the faithful finds life and expression. The efficacy of these practices in eliciting feelings of devotion is derived from four principal sources, either

• by the strong appeal which they make to man’s emotional instincts, or
• by the simplicity of form which puts them within the reach of all, or
• by the stimulus of association with many others in the same good work, or
• by their derivation from the example of pious persons who are venerated for their holiness.

**

 

[wmscott]

Probably it helps to explain to Protestants what devotion means in the Catholic Church.

Advent says it like this:

Devotion, in the language of ascetical writers, denotes a certain ardour of affection in the things of God, and even without any qualifying prefix it generally implies that this ardour is of a sensible character. On the other hand, by the term “devotions” in the plural, or “popular devotions”, we commonly understand those external practices of piety by which the devotion of the faithful finds life and expression. The efficacy of these practices in eliciting feelings of devotion is derived from four principal sources, either

• by the strong appeal which they make to man’s emotional instincts, or
• by the simplicity of form which puts them within the reach of all, or
• by the stimulus of association with many others in the same good work, or
• by their derivation from the example of pious persons who are venerated for their holiness.

Good Point, thanks

 

[MichaelP3]

So as stated before the Rosary is a devotion and not mandatory to be a Catholic. As far as cutting out the middle man, did you read the PDF I attached titled the “Rosary Defined” in post #19?

Yea I know it’s not (but it is very powerful).

Yea I did, I think more then one pie chart when explaining a prayer is bit confusing. But maybe that’s just me.

And hey, Im not judging you or anything. If that works for you, GREAT!

Regards

 

[Reuben_J]

Good Point, thanks

 

[Peter_J]

To answer your question, I know many Evangelicals (of the Vineyard and Calvary Chapel persuasion more than, e.g., Lutheran or Episcopalian) who cite Constantine as a reason on the basis he was pagan, not Christian. But that’s a non-starter that nobody to talk about, so I’ll leave it at that.

It would seem that they are implicitly agreeing that TCC isn’t “a denomination” along with Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Methodism etc.

 

[Peter_J]

Was there not a move recently re “co-Mediatrix with Jesus”?

There’s **always **something – don’t forget that we number about one billion.

Consider: If a bunch of CAF posters wanted Blank, then people could say “There’s a move for Blank!” … which would be true, if nobody else wanted it.

P.S. I guess you mean “co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix”.

 

[Peter_J]

I won’t say I see it as idolatry. I won’t even say it’s wrong but I won’t say I think it’s right either.

My question is rather. If one is going to put that many minutes or even hours for some into praying the rosary, why not pray to God/Jesus instead with that “time”?
**
If I were Catholic I’d have more a “cut out the middleman approach”**

You’d be completely within your rights. If anyone had a problem with it (gave you funny looks or whatever) it would be their problem and not yours.

 

[Pulvis]

I was brought up in a Baptist family that did not go to Church. I was sent to Sunday School and Church, but my adopted(another story) parents did not go. I was exposed to Catholicism in my late teens and converted. Seemed new and exciting. Was the normal make Mass, make confession, live by the rules Catholic.
Always missed my Baptist roots though,(Grand Father, Uncle and 2 cousins are Baptist Pastors) and always found some tenants of the Catholic faith to be a bridge to far. Due to my roots I have always studied the Bible, sort of, and felt fairly literate in Bible 101. Some time ago I learned what Bible study should really be, how to dig in to the Scripture to see what the words really mean. To see and understand the Scripture as it is, without someone else’s opinion cluttering up the revealed truth in the Scriptures. This was the beginning of the end for me and Catholicism. I tried to make it work, but I could not compromise what I was learning as to the truth of Scripture and the Catholic version with the addition of all the Church created traditions and devotions. I do not mean to offend, just answering honestly. I have no hostility toward Catholicism in general, nor Catholics as a whole. I am no Jack Chick!
I do not disparage the Catholic Church. We are all following Christ.I simply think that the Bible is more precise, more inspirational, and more accurate for developing doctrine.
Blessings and Prayers to God through Jesus Christ for all.

 

[wmscott]

Yea I know it’s not (but it is very powerful).

Yea I did, I think more then one pie chart when explaining a prayer is bit confusing. But maybe that’s just me.

And hey, Im not judging you or anything. If that works for you, GREAT!

Regards

Yea I know, I tend to get down in the weeds quite a bit on things, but sometimes pictures are easier. I just want the most relevant information to be presented and then let whomever is reading form their own opinions.

 

[wmscott]

Yea I know it’s not (but it is very powerful).

Yea I did, I think more then one pie chart when explaining a prayer is bit confusing. But maybe that’s just me.

And hey, Im not judging you or anything. If that works for you, GREAT!

Regards

Also, just an interesting observation, I see that you acknowledge that the Rosary is “Very Powerful” to me this seems very insightful on your part.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I was brought up in a Baptist family that did not go to Church. I was sent to Sunday School and Church, but my adopted(another story) parents did not go. I was exposed to Catholicism in my late teens and converted. Seemed new and exciting. Was the normal make Mass, make confession, live by the rules Catholic.
Always missed my Baptist roots though,(Grand Father, Uncle and 2 cousins are Baptist Pastors) and always found some tenants of the Catholic faith to be a bridge to far. Due to my roots I have always studied the Bible, sort of, and felt fairly literate in Bible 101. Some time ago I learned what Bible study should really be, how to dig in to the Scripture to see what the words really mean. To see and understand the Scripture as it is, without someone else’s opinion cluttering up the revealed truth in the Scriptures. This was the beginning of the end for me and Catholicism. I tried to make it work, but I could not compromise what I was learning as to the truth of Scripture and the Catholic version with the addition of all the Church created traditions and devotions. I do not mean to offend, just answering honestly. I have no hostility toward Catholicism in general, nor Catholics as a whole. I am no Jack Chick!
I do not disparage the Catholic Church. We are all following Christ.I simply think that the Bible is more precise, more inspirational, and more accurate for developing doctrine.
Blessings and Prayers to God through Jesus Christ for all.

Total respect for your views, Purvis. I got a little nostalgic for my own Baptist roots and attended a Baptist service last week at my mother’s church. I realize why I converted out. It seems like a lot of the service was announcements, followed by some hymns, a couple of snippets of Scripture reading and then the sermon ( " message," these days). After that was another hymn and then the closing prayer. No Corporate Confession and Absolution. No Intercessory Prayers or Gospel reading. No Nicene Creed. No Sacrament of Holy Communion. I realized that I needed to get my butt back to the Lutheran Church right after that service. I’m no CFW Walther myself and I certainly acknowledge Baptists and other Nonconformist churches as Christian Churches, but without the liturgy, I’m left panting like somebody dying of thirst in a desert. To each their own and I’m glad that your soul has found its home back in the Baptist church. :tiphat: Best wishes to you, sir.

 

[Cyril_Of_Canada]

Cyril - I’m going to assume that is your given name. It’s the name of a great Church father, as well.

It is quite fitting that you should bring up the verses about serving God alone. The prayers of the Rosary point to God alone, Mary is simply pointing in His direction.

I’d like to point out the folly - by using an analogy - in taking verses like the one you posted, and the commonly referenced ones protestants use incorrectly to dispute Catholicism.
Your screen name is “Cyril of Canada”. Cyril is a name derived from Greek Kyrios, which means “Lord”/“Master”. Does not the Bible state “call no man Master… call no man Father”? Your given/screen name goes against that very verse, if it is only meant to be read literally, with no context or deeper meaning.
(Of course, that is not what is meant, nor understood by the Church.)

Ahhhhh, I actually didn’t know the name meant “Lord/Master”. I just wanted to pick a username based on one of those ancient, inspirational church father’s that have those serious looking icon portraits. I thought the name “Cyril” sounded quite interesting, like the name Ezekiel or Polycarp.

And about my folly. Well, I actually have been praying the Rosary lately (secretly, in my home) and I once did at a local adoration chapel. I’ll have you know that I was bringing up what had crossed my mind at one point and what I felt to be commonly felt by other protestants. I mean, yeah, the lack of protestant’s understanding about Devotions probably has to do what that too. As I mentioned to people privately, I find it interesting that we are called to serve others while at the same time the Bible says to serve God only. It’s like the classic objection by a protestant against calling a priest “father” because of the verse “call no man father”, but we see St. Paul calls himself a father to Timothy, then there is the fact we could our biological fathers “father.”

 

[LutheranScholar]

I converted to the RCC at the Easter Vigil in 1995. I’d fallen away and gone back several times. I suppose my major issues were doctrinal. Why pray to the saints when Jesus is said to be the only Mediator between God and Man in the book of Hebrews? Why do a " satisfaction" for Penance when Jesus apparently made full satisfaction for our sins on the cross? I entered the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod in February of 2013 by affirmation of faith. The retention of the historic liturgy, plus the Biblical emphasis spurred my decision. I’m extremely comfortable as an LCMS Lutheran.

 

[Padres1969]

This is a question for our Protestant friends, especially those who converted away from Catholicism.

What would you describe as being the most important intellectual argument that lead to your either rejecting or not embracing Catholicism?

I’m not attempting to debate you and show you that you’re wrong, I’m just interested in your perspective.

Honestly it would be hard to narrow it down to just one. My rejection of Catholicism was more of a totality of the circumstances of the issues I took with the RCC. And those issues were a combination of theological, moral, and temporal disagreements.

But if there was one final issue that was the last straw the broke the proverbial camel’s back it was the clergy abuse scandal, which hit very close to home for me. Given the litany of other issues I already had with the RCC it forced me to finally look in the mirror and realize I hadn’t actually been Catholic for a long time nor did I have any interest in continuing to pretend I was.

 

[simspt]

I think I’ll call in on Catholic Answers Live and see what the appologists have to say.

It is very confusing language just as Co-redemptrix is and unnecessary IMO. Does more harm than good…
Catholic dogma re Mary is clear in so many other areas this language isn’t necessary again IMO.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Honestly it would be hard to narrow it down to just one. My rejection of Catholicism was more of a totality of the circumstances of the issues I took with the RCC. And those issues were a combination of theological, moral, and temporal disagreements.

But if there was one final issue that was the last straw the broke the proverbial camel’s back it was the clergy abuse scandal, which hit very close to home for me. Given the litany of other issues I already had with the RCC it forced me to finally look in the mirror and realize I hadn’t actually been Catholic for a long time nor did I have any interest in continuing to pretend I was.

I know the Catholic response is priests and bishops are human and sin too but I imagine you were not alone in that issue being so troublesome for you. I myself had trouble comprehending apostolic successors covering up something like child abuse. I remember my mind at the time kept returning to by their fruits we will know them. But you realize right that you actually had been a Catholic for a long time according to the Catholic Church and still are according to the Catholic Church. Perhaps just not a practicing or fully faithful one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13411600&postcount=2

 

[Padres1969]

I know the Catholic response is priests and bishops are human and sin too but I imagine you were not alone in that issue being so troublesome for you. I myself had trouble comprehending apostolic successors covering up something like child abuse. My mind kept returning to by their fruits we will know them. But you realize right that you actually had been a Catholic for a long time according to the Catholic Church and still are according to the Catholic Church. Perhaps just not a practicing or fully faithful one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13411600&postcount=2

Yes I’m well aware of the Catholic Church’s position on Former Catholics.