Protestants Rejecting Catholicism

[goout]

You buck not against my words , but the Lords words about religion being an obstacle.

Hi L,

What I have heard from some, “malpractice” at the most fundamental level of just what is the gospel, to be saved, born again…Jesus did say the hookers and drunkards enter first (and followed Him) before the “religious” enter…

No, Jesus did not say this. Please quote the passage.
Jesus pointed out that some may enter before others, he did not say that overt sinners enter before religious because religion is a problem per se. Nonsense.

PS- all churches have this “challenge” to some extent…most would also agree that the CC is the most religious, having then a bigger challenge.

No. The Church and the practice of religion are an aid to every person. The Church is Christ’s body, instituted for the salvation of every person. Christ is the way. The Church is the ark. To be indifferent in the face of this offer will not get you to the front of the line you seem to be worried about. (I don’t think there is a line but, just trying to speak your language.)

 

[benhur]

No, Jesus did not say this. Please quote the passage.
Jesus pointed out that some may enter before others, he did not say that overt sinners enter before religious because religion is a problem per se. Nonsense.

Hi g,

" the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him…Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you…For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him…because you have taken away the key to knowledge…You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to…They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders…to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. You clean the outside of the cup and dish,…First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean… You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous…You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?..Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit…and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony…no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”…‘You must be born again.’…Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There it is. I stand by what I said, that religion can and has been an obstacle. I did not say, “religion is a problem per say” per your paraphrase of my post. I did not buck religion, but said we have a “righteous vehicle”, that “what God has given us is good”. I also put it into proper context, of Nicodemus, and leaders, as examples of being “religious”. I also put it in context of today, of the possibility of wrongly thinking one is born again because of righteous things we have done (water baptism, church membership etc) …Not "nonsense’’ but opinion as was asked for in this thread.

No. The Church and the practice of religion are an aid to every person. The Church is Christ’s body, instituted for the salvation of every person. Christ is the way. The Church is the ark. To be indifferent in the face of this offer will not get you to the front of the line you seem to be worried about. (I don’t think there is a line but, just trying to speak your language.)

Well I also spoke of not making it to eternal life, much less a specific place in line. My point was that religion can not regenerate you. An institution can not regenerate you. A nation (Israel), a church (Christian) can not regenerate you. I would add that the Body is for a working out of our salvation (sanctification etc) but after we are born again …Most agree that we (churches) all have a problem, a challenge that some think they are in the Ark when they are not.It is much more than the James admonition of “doing”. It is one of “being” a new creature (born of the spirit). Hanging out in a garage does not make you a car. One must be born again, born of the spirit. A ceremonial (religious) baptism just as a sinners prayer(religious) , may or may not be effectual. And an important key for any teaching church.

Blessings

 

[Wannano]

Hi g,

" the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him…Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you…For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him…because you have taken away the key to knowledge…You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to…They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders…to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. You clean the outside of the cup and dish,…First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean… You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous…You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?..Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit…and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony…no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”…‘You must be born again.’…Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There it is. I stand by what I said, that religion can and has been an obstacle. I did not say, “religion is a problem per say” per your paraphrase of my post. I did not buck religion, but said we have a “righteous vehicle”, that “what God has given us is good”. I also put it into proper context, of Nicodemus, and leaders, as examples of being “religious”. I also put it in context of today, of the possibility of wrongly thinking one is born again because of righteous things we have done (water baptism, church membership etc) …Not "nonsense’’ but opinion as was asked for in this thread.
Well I also spoke of not making it to eternal life, much less a specific place in line. My point was that religion can not regenerate you. An institution can not regenerate you. A nation (Israel), a church (Christian) can not regenerate you. I would add that the Body is for a working out of our salvation (sanctification etc) but after we are born again …Most agree that we (churches) all have a problem, a challenge that some think they are in the Ark when they are not.It is much more than the James admonition of “doing”. It is one of “being” a new creature (born of the spirit). Hanging out in a garage does not make you a car. One must be born again, born of the spirit. A ceremonial (religious) baptism just as a sinners prayer(religious) , may or may not be effectual. And an important key for any teaching church.

Blessings

This is fabulous Ben Hur, I hope everyone reads this word for word!

 

[goout]

Hi g,

" the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him…Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you…For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him…because you have taken away the key to knowledge…You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to…They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders…to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. You clean the outside of the cup and dish,…First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean… You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous…You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?..Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit…and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony…no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”…‘You must be born again.’…Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There it is. I stand by what I said, that religion can and has been an obstacle. I did not say, “religion is a problem per say” per your paraphrase of my post. I did not buck religion, but said we have a “righteous vehicle”, that “what God has given us is good”. I also put it into proper context, of Nicodemus, and leaders, as examples of being “religious”. I also put it in context of today, of the possibility of wrongly thinking one is born again because of righteous things we have done (water baptism, church membership etc) …Not "nonsense’’ but opinion as was asked for in this thread.

Thanks for fleshing your opinion out.
What you say here is not what you said originally, but no problem.

 

[rcwitness]

There it is. I stand by what I said, that religion can and has been an obstacle. I did not say, “religion is a problem per say” per your paraphrase of my post. I did not buck religion, but said we have a “righteous vehicle”, that “what God has given us is good”. I also put it into proper context, of Nicodemus, and leaders, as examples of being “religious”. I also put it in context of today, of the possibility of wrongly thinking one is born again because of righteous things we have done (water baptism, church membership etc) …Not "nonsense’’ but opinion as was asked for in this thread.
Well I also spoke of not making it to eternal life, much less a specific place in line. **My point was that religion can not regenerate you. An institution can not regenerate you. A nation (Israel), a church (Christian) can not regenerate you.**I would add that the Body is for a working out of our salvation (sanctification etc) but after we are born again …Most agree that we (churches) all have a problem, a challenge that some think they are in the Ark when they are not.It is much more than the James admonition of “doing”. It is one of “being” a new creature (born of the spirit). Hanging out in a garage does not make you a car. One must be born again, born of the spirit. A ceremonial (religious) baptism just as a sinners prayer(religious) , may or may not be effectual. And an important key for any teaching church.

Blessings

Ok my brother… here is the definition of “religion”:
**:*the belief in a god or in a group of gods

:*an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

:an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group*
According to this, all denominations are religions. First by Christianity, then by denominational affiliation.

I don’t want to demonize what you are trying to get at… but to say that religion or and institution, or a nation or Church cannot regenerate you, is not contradicting the Catholic faith. If you find a Teaching that says those things do, then you are making a valid point. As it is, we believe God and His power are able to regenerate, so long as one believes and is Baptized. This is according to the Lord Jesus Himself. An infant is in a different situation until the age of reason. They can be secured into the Church and Covenant through Baptism, but are not exempt from walking in the gift of faith, according to what they know and understand.

Baptism IS effectual, yet it does not guarantee that we will cooperate with His grace. The Word of God is like a seed which falls on different ground. Some does not take root, some does for awhile but is snatched up, and some produces fruit.

We believe in the Word of God, both in Scripture and preaching, and in Sacrament. The Word generates conversion and fruit. Man’s acceptance or rejection of Him is up to our free will.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi g,

" the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him…Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you…For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him…because you have taken away the key to knowledge…You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to…They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders…to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. You clean the outside of the cup and dish,…First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean… You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous…You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?..Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit…and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony…no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”…‘You must be born again.’…Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There it is. I stand by what I said, that religion can and has been an obstacle. I did not say, “religion is a problem per say” per your paraphrase of my post. I did not buck religion, but said we have a “righteous vehicle”, that “what God has given us is good”. I also put it into proper context, of Nicodemus, and leaders, as examples of being “religious”. I also put it in context of today, of the possibility of wrongly thinking one is born again because of righteous things we have done (water baptism, church membership etc) …Not "nonsense’’ but opinion as was asked for in this thread.
Well I also spoke of not making it to eternal life, much less a specific place in line. My point was that religion can not regenerate you. An institution can not regenerate you. A nation (Israel), a church (Christian) can not regenerate you. I would add that the Body is for a working out of our salvation (sanctification etc) but after we are born again …Most agree that we (churches) all have a problem, a challenge that some think they are in the Ark when they are not.It is much more than the James admonition of “doing”. It is one of “being” a new creature (born of the spirit). Hanging out in a garage does not make you a car. One must be born again, born of the spirit. A ceremonial (religious) baptism just as a sinners prayer(religious) , may or may not be effectual. And an important key for any teaching church.

Blessings

Hi. Let me start by saying, I will in no way suggest that “religion” cannot ever become problematic. I completely agree that there exist Catholics who are “religious” in a bad sense.

But the thing is, I find that people just assume that the Church is in league with those Catholics. That assumption is wrong … heck, often it is more a matter of the Church or its leaders coming under fire – yes, seriously. (For example, I don’t know whether you saw this or not, but there was a post on CAF 2 days ago, that suggested that a translation of the bible that’s on the Vatican website is the fruit of a “conscience [sic] effort by some to inject the mythical “homosexual person” into St. Paul’s teaching”.)

 

[goout]

Ok my brother… here is the definition of “religion”:
**:*the belief in a god or in a group of gods

:*an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

:an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group*
According to this, all denominations are religions. First by Christianity, then by denominational affiliation.

I don’t want to demonize what you are trying to get at… but to say that religion or and institution, or a nation or Church cannot regenerate you, is not contradicting the Catholic faith. If you find a Teaching that says those things do, then you are making a valid point. As it is, we believe God and His power are able to regenerate, so long as one believes and is Baptized. This is according to the Lord Jesus Himself. An infant is in a different situation until the age of reason. They can be secured into the Church and Covenant through Baptism, but are not exempt from walking in the gift of faith, according to what they know and understand.

Baptism IS effectual, yet it does not guarantee that we will cooperate with His grace. The Word of God is like a seed which falls on different ground. Some does not take root, some does for awhile but is snatched up, and some produces fruit.

We believe in the Word of God, both in Scripture and preaching, and in Sacrament. The Word generates conversion and fruit. Man’s acceptance or rejection of Him is up to our free will.

Right.
We are talking about a distinction without a difference here.

This point about “tax collectors and sinners” vs “the religious” is a tactic of indifferentism.
It is populist and appealing to an individualist mindset which puts the individual’s disposition at odds with the objective worship of God. It’s very appealing, as it should be, to read about a “prostitute with a good heart” who God will save despite his lack of religious observance. Ok, good stuff. But that’s not the whole gospel.

In a whole person, these come together. When Christ castigates the religious, he is doing so in the context of empty religious observance that is compartmentalized from the heart of religion (which is God himself). *He is not castigating the practice of religion itself.
*
There should be is no “vs” or tension between “the heart” and the practice of religion. We are all a work in progress, and thanks be to God he turns us toward him so that we might be whole people.

 

[benhur]

Ok my brother… here is the definition of “religion”:
**:*the belief in a god or in a group of gods

:*an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

:an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group*
According to this, all denominations are religions. First by Christianity, then by denominational affiliation.

I don’t want to demonize what you are trying to get at… but to say that religion or and institution, or a nation or Church cannot regenerate you, is not contradicting the Catholic faith. If you find a Teaching that says those things do, then you are making a valid point. As it is, we believe God and His power are able to regenerate, so long as one believes and is Baptized. This is according to the Lord Jesus Himself. An infant is in a different situation until the age of reason. They can be secured into the Church and Covenant through Baptism, but are not exempt from walking in the gift of faith, according to what they know and understand.

Baptism IS effectual, yet it does not guarantee that we will cooperate with His grace. The Word of God is like a seed which falls on different ground. Some does not take root, some does for awhile but is snatched up, and some produces fruit.

We believe in the Word of God, both in Scripture and preaching, and in Sacrament. The Word generates conversion and fruit. Man’s acceptance or rejection of Him is up to our free will.

Hi rc, there lies the perceived problem I mentioned.You kindly stated the church position that baptism in infants is eeffectual but must still walk out gift of faith and to cooperate with said grace. Then when one does not, the assumption is they are a new creature but must show forth fruit and cooperate. Yet there is another church that does not assume that, and does not demand bread from a rock …There is a church , a gospel, that says if one is not walking in faith, not seemingly cooperating with grace, then perhaps they are not a new creature! There is no one more miserable than trying to be spiritual when they are not.That is like urging a caterpillar to fly…All this because of religion legality…that if you are baptized or say sinners pray you definitely are born of the spirit…to further break apart such legality we have cases where folks are definitely born and filled with the spirit, believe, before any religious rite of baptism…blessings…sorry about format…on cell phone.

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc, there lies the perceived problem I mentioned.You kindly stated the church position that baptism in infants is eeffectual but must still walk out gift of faith and to cooperate with said grace. Then when one does not, the assumption is they are a new creature but must show forth fruit and cooperate. Yet there is another church that does not assume that, and does not demand bread from a rock …There is a church , a gospel, that says if one is not walking in faith, not seemingly cooperating with grace, then perhaps they are not a new creature! There is no one more miserable than trying to be spiritual when they are not.That is like urging a caterpillar to fly…All this because of religion legality…that if you are baptized or say sinners pray you definitely are born of the spirit…to further break apart such legality we have cases where folks are definitely born and filled with the spirit, believe, before any religious rite of baptism…blessings…sorry about format…on cell phone.

Yes, the Spirit becons, and calls us to repentance. He constantly urges us to deeper conversion in faith, hope and charity.

Baptism is an initiation into the death and life of Jesus and His bride. Obedience to this command is not without the grace of its promises. This is accepting His forgiveness of sins. It is not when God decided to forgive us, or when He accomplished the sacrifice for our sins at Calvary. It is when we receive it’s blessing over us, personally. After this, we are always able to honor our Baptism with thankfulness in steadfastness, suffering, Godliness, love of neighbor, and devotion to His Eucharist. By this, we remain in Him, and He in us.

 

[steve_b]

My point was that religion can not regenerate you. An institution can not regenerate you. A nation (Israel), a church (Christian) can not regenerate you. I would add that the Body is for a working out of our salvation (sanctification etc) but after we are born again

baptism which Jesus instituted, does regenerate …and… it is to bring one into the one true Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church and in extension the Catholic religion (from the beginning, a condensed 400 yr history #34, ) Jesus instituted and promised to build for our salvation, outside of which there is no salvation. Not my words but from scripture and Tradition

Since division from His Church is division from Him as well, there is no salvation for them who leave or are outside His Church. Again, not my words but from Paul which in extension it came from Jesus

Division / Schism / sects etc is contrary to the Divine Will of Jesus

everyone is to be one John 17:20-23

in extension, Paul’s warns anyone who would cause dissent and division from the Catholic Church

Rom 16: (links operational)
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας ] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. [18] For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily.

That Greek word for dissent / division διχοστασίας ]is the same word used in Romans & Galatians. The following consequence for division from or won’t join or return to the Catholic Church is.

Gal 5:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας ] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

iow, they don’t go to heaven having divided from the Church.

Consider Ignatius, a Catholic bishop, and direct disciple of John the apostle.

please read

• ch 3 Epistle to the Philadelphians
• ch’s 4,7,8 Epistle to the Smyrnæans

Where would he learn that from? St John

 

[benhur]

baptism which Jesus instituted, does regenerate …and… it is to bring one into the one true Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church and in extension the Catholic religion (from the beginning, a condensed 400 yr history #34, ) Jesus instituted and promised to build for our salvation, outside of which there is no salvation. Not my words but from scripture and Tradition

Since division from His Church is division from Him as well, there is no salvation for them who leave or are outside His Church. Again, not my words but from Paul which in extension it came from Jesus

Division / Schism / sects etc is contrary to the Divine Will of Jesus

everyone is to be one John 17:20-23

in extension, Paul’s warns anyone who would cause dissent and division from the Catholic Church

Rom 16: (links operational)
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας ] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. [18] For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily.

That Greek word for dissent / division διχοστασίας ]is the same word used in Romans & Galatians. The following consequence for division from or won’t join or return to the Catholic Church is.

Gal 5:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας ] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

iow, they don’t go to heaven having divided from the Church.

Consider Ignatius, a Catholic bishop, and direct disciple of John the apostle.

please read

• ch 3 Epistle to the Philadelphians
• ch’s 4,7,8 Epistle to the Smyrnæans

Where would he learn that from? St John

Hi s,

Yes , that is CC position on baptism, and consequences for "departing’’ or dividing. My posts still stand however as dealing with the thread question. The rationale and experience still can not be refuted by this other church type folk.

Your post is also quite Catholic. The full weight of her is felt , almost in fear, of the consequences of being wrong, being departed from her teaching, being deprived from “heaven”. Gulp. Yet I would say this other type church overcomes this with the power of their testimony. Kind of like when Nicodemus was born again, was finally born in the spirit, apart, divided from his religious status quo “church”, he was going to follow this new “sect” all while not feeling he has left his heritage. It is tough to debunk the church you were born spiritually in, especially when they actually appreciate any seeds/foundation from the old church.

Blessings

 

[steve_b]

Hi s,

Yes , that is CC position on baptism, and consequences for "departing’’ or dividing.

Howdy :tiphat:

actually, it is Our Lord’s position.

said another way,

• One who rejects His Church rejects Jesus. Remember His words to then Saul of Tarsus who was not only persecuting the Church but the first deacon of the Catholic Church was stoned to death at Saul’s feet.?
• “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?” Acts 9:4
• Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome. Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions διχοστασίας ] and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites,**(“Rm16 RSVCE - Personal Greetings - I commend to you - Bible Gateway”)]

therefore, rejecting His Church is to reject Him
bh:

My posts still stand however as dealing with the thread question. The rationale and experience still can not be refuted by this other church type folk.

So I don’t misunderstand, by “can not be refuted by other church type folk” do you mean Protestants can’t refute Catholicism?
bh:

Your post is also quite Catholic.

thanks
bh:

The full weight of her is felt , almost in fear, of the consequences of being wrong, being departed from her teaching, being deprived from “heaven”. Gulp.

warnings in scripture should shake one to their very soul…agreed?

Here’s why Catholics have the responsibility to pass on the faith faithfully.

Ez 3: 17…whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”
bh:

Yet I would say this other type church overcomes this with the power of their testimony. Kind of like when Nicodemus was born again, was finally born in the spirit, apart, divided from his religious status quo “church”, he was going to follow this new “sect” all while not feeling he has left his heritage.

Re: Nicodemus,
he couldn’t remain nor did he remain where he was after being with Jesus. He came into the Church via baptism. In Context
bh:

It is tough to debunk the church you were born spiritually in,

since Jesus promised, not even the gates of hell will prevail against it, how could anyone debunk THAT?.
bh:

especially when they actually appreciate any seeds/foundation from the old church.

the “old Church” as if there is a “new Church” ?

the Catholic Church today is the same Church Jesus founded #34, . I hope one doesn’t think that ecumenical speak today, is accepting division in any way shape or form her as being okay.

The Church throughout her 2000 year history, has worked with, and dialogued with, all these groups, and many more not listed. They are all baptized people. And they are all in heresy
Great Heresies

 

[rcwitness]

Hi s,

Yes , that is CC position on baptism, and consequences for "departing’’ or dividing.

actually, it is Our Lord’s position.

Waving a big stick doesn’t accomplish anything, steve.

 

[Darryl_B]

Waving a big stick doesn’t accomplish anything, steve.

I wouldn’t call steve’s bluntness matter-of-fact in the genra of waving a big stick, but I will say in my experience those who hate “religion” are actually more “religionized” than those that they assume are. And the ones who hate “institution” are actually more “institutionalized” than those they compare themselves to.

 

[rcwitness]

I wouldn’t call steve’s bluntness matter-of-fact in the genra of waving a big stick, but I will say in my experience those who hate “religion” are actually more “religionized” than those that they assume are. And the ones who hate “institution” are actually more “institutionalized” than those they compare themselves to.

Perhaps. I have read many posts from benhur, and he is not ignorant of Scripture or Catholic interpretation. He acknowledged the Catholic view, but doesn’t agree with all of Catholic Teaching. But he is still here discussing one another’s beliefs. I appreciate these Christians very much. It’s hard to find them in real life. Many will discuss to a certain degree, and then take offense where none is given. Benhur has thicker skin than that.

I’m not saying Steve was giving offense, but that I don’t appreciate when Protestants Bible thump me. Sometimes we do it to others. Sometimes we Jesus thump, Tradition thump, character thump, authority thump, etc. I’ve done it. But I realize that it’s best to simply share why we believe what we believe in as many ways and with as best understanding as we can for the ones whom we are fellowshiping
with.

Do you think that Catholicism is greater than Protestantism? I do. So I apply Jesus’ rule to this:

“He who is greatest among you, shall be your servant.”

Catholicism, and Catholics, are to serve Protestantism and Protestants. If you think your faith is greater than anothers, you must be serving others well. Christianity is a religion, this is indisputable. But some, including the Lord, hate a religion based on a mentality of partiality, or Sacrament Alone, judgmental, belittling, pride, etc. We, who have the fulness of Christ available should be more humble, more loving, kind, forgiving, patient, etc.

 

[steve_b]

Waving a big stick doesn’t accomplish anything, steve.

Most of my post #132 ] was from quotes all properly referenced. Therefore it’s not from my opinion, nor am I waving a big stick. You say it doesn’t accomplish anything. I think you need to consider the quote I used previously that I quote again below.

Since I can’t speak for anyone else, nor speak for what anybody else does with this information, I’m still obliged to give the truth of our faith. And as the warning states, l won’t be judged on successfully convincing another to change direction, but I do need to give what is true when the opportunity presents itself, or you can see what happens if I or anybody else doesn’t do that. BTW, this warning has no expiration date to it.

Ez 3: 17…whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

 

[rcwitness]

Most of my post #132 ] was from quotes all properly referenced. Therefore it’s not from my opinion, nor am I waving a big stick. You say it doesn’t accomplish anything. I think you need to consider the quote I used previously that I quote again below.

Since I can’t speak for anyone else, nor speak for what anybody else does with this information, I’m still obliged to give the truth of our faith. And as the warning states, l won’t be judged on successfully convincing another to change direction, but I do need to give what is true when the opportunity presents itself, or you can see what happens if I or anybody else doesn’t do that. BTW, this warning has no expiration date to it.

Ez 3: 17…whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

Are you saying benhur is going to die for something he has not repented of, or does not believe?

 

[goout]

Are you saying benhur is going to die for something he has not repented of, or does not believe?

Only God knows our destiny.
Obstinacy in the face of full knowledge and consent is required for spiritual death.

What is full knowledge? What is consent? It’s said by some that not consenting to the Church’s teaching is ex-culpable.

It’s a mystery that I personally am not going to trifle with. If I am going to err in my obedience, I am going to err on the side of eternal life.

 

[benhur]

Only God knows our destiny.
Obstinacy in the face of full knowledge and consent is required for spiritual death.

What is full knowledge? What is consent? It’s said by some that not consenting to the Church’s teaching is ex-culpable.

It’s a mystery that I personally am not going to trifle with. If I am going to err in my obedience, I am going to err on the side of eternal life.

If i may say what a pastor once said, “When in doubt, rebuke”, but of course he was half joking. One is to act in faith , not doubt. The spiritual man is to act in the light he is given, and not in the shadows.

Blessings

 

[Darryl_B]

I am getting a little tired of this tread lightly mentality, as if it is productive. If we tread lightly, afraid of offending people, then we are probably not being like Jesus Christ, Peter, the Apostles and Paul. If I get in a discussion with an atheist friend and believe me I do do that, and we disagree like chalk and cheese, we will tell each other straight out our understandings, that is when we are friends and we remain friends through that understanding. Friends are able to do that, enemies cannot. I would like to think that here we are all friends.