Protestants, SHOW YOUR LOVE FOR MARY!!!

[LilyM]

Christians are to love everybody, even their enemies. Why only Mary???

What is ‘only’ about loving Mary? If I tell you to love your spouse, does that mean you can’t also love your children, friends, siblings, parents?

If I tell you to treat a woman as your mother (as Jesus did, via John, to all of us, since we are ALL spiritually His brothers and Mary is thus spiritually the mother of all of us) then it does imply a special relationship, of course. But that doesn’t mean you are either to ignore or cease to love your biological/earthly mother, does it?

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

So much the more proof of the point if he ISN’T referring to the Mother of Jesus!

If Paul requests others to ‘venerate’ ‘pray with’ or ‘salute’, in other words show such respect to, some other ordinary woman who he happened to come across in Rome, how much MORE should we be willing to do so for Mary the Mother of Jesus (God), who is as far above any other human being as the sun the moon (of course even she is as far below God as the moon is below the sun)

I don’t believe that the issue is now or has been whether or not Mary was worthy of respect or whether she led an exemplary life that warranted being chosen for the specific role that she was.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t believe that the issue is now or has been whether or not Mary was worthy of respect or whether she led an exemplary life that warranted being chosen for the specific role that she was.

And I don’t believe Lily said anything of the kind (her remarks were the ones you had quoted above your own quote, so I’m assuming your response is to what she said, yes? If so, since she said absolutely nothing about Mary’s ‘exemplary life warranting being chosen for the specific role that she was’, why on earth would you say such a thing ‘out of nowhere’. . .since you don’t believe it’s the issue anyway?

It almost looks as though you’re trying to imply that you are responding to a person who said the above. . .but the only one who said it was. . .you. You took Lily’s words about Mary being God’s highest creature (and please, if she was not, tell me just what creature was higher than the woman chosen to bear the Lord, please) and tried to say that Lily was making a case that Mary’s ‘exemplary life’ warranted her being chosen. Lily said nothing of the kind. You ‘read into’ her words what you THOUGHT she said and then responded using the words of YOURS (not hers) which you (mis) understood her to say.

It’s hard enough communicating when we’re addressing what people really say. It’s impossible if people are not addressing what is actually said, but what they ‘think they heard.’

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

(and please, if she was not, tell me just what creature was higher than the woman chosen to bear the Lord, please)

All of humanity bears the image of God. Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, believer and non-believer. While God has different purposes for our lives, I like many Protestants do not believe that some of us (even one of us) are “higher creations” than others.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No ‘higher creations’? None of us has any merit not for grace (which is a free gift) but for the way in which we freely choose to use that gift?

Why, Jesus Himself spoke of the men who were entrusted with talents. One was given 10 talents and made 10 more; another was given 5 talents and made 5 more. A third was given 1 but was afraid and buried it.

Remember what the master said? Well done to the ones who used their talents well.

If there were no such thing as ‘higher creations’ (as opposed to equality of persons as being in God’s image’), then why bother to give some servants 'more". . .and why would the steward complain at the one who did nothing? He got his 1 talent back, didn’t he?

If you argue that we are all ‘equal’, and that nothing a person does to follow God makes him any better than his fellow, what then do you say of the man with 10 talents as opposed to the man with 1? If they were both ‘equal’ before the master, why was one given reward and the other punished?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

No ‘higher creations’? None of us has any merit not for grace (which is a free gift) but for the way in which we freely choose to use that gift?

I believe that is it appropriate to seek to emulate the behavior of those who have shown a humble obedience to that for which God has called them. I do not believe that we are to measure greatness in the manner of the world, that is in accordance with the magnitude of the task accomplished, but rather in accordance with the obedience and faithfulness with which we carry out what God has tasked us with. A person called to a task that is small by the world’s standards, perhaps administration, managing the finances of their church, or maybe just tending the grounds, and is steadfastly faithful and obedient to that call of God for their life, is deserving of no more and no less admiration than one called to great deeds, even as great as participating in Jesus’ ministry.

Why, Jesus Himself spoke of the men who were entrusted with talents. One was given 10 talents and made 10 more; another was given 5 talents and made 5 more. A third was given 1 but was afraid and buried it.

Remember what the master said? Well done to the ones who used their talents well.

Indeed, but I don’t see it said anywhere that those who are called to higher tasks are deserving of more admiration than those called to humble tasks. The third man was reprimanded not because he was given little, but because he did not use what he had been given.

If there were no such thing as ‘higher creations’ (as opposed to equality of persons as being in God’s image’), then why bother to give some servants 'more". . .and why would the steward complain at the one who did nothing? He got his 1 talent back, didn’t he?

God gives some more and some less because that is His will, He has great and small tasks to be carried out in the world. The Bible gives us no reason to believe that people called to greater tasks are so called because they are inherently superior. Quite the contrary, God often picks the unlikely candidate to carry out His will so that no one may boast and all the glory and honor would be ascribed to Him who has done great things.

If you argue that we are all ‘equal’, and that nothing a person does to follow God makes him any better than his fellow, what then do you say of the man with 10 talents as opposed to the man with 1? If they were both ‘equal’ before the master, why was one given reward and the other punished?

Again, it is because of what they did with what they had, not how much the were given. If the man with one talent turned it into 2 and the man with 5 talents had the same 5 to show at the end, whom do you think would receive the master’s praise?

 

[LutheranDK]

Just like the title says, let us see how you love Her and show respect to Jesus by loving Her.

You say we misunderstand how you view Her, so, show us your understanding. Whether personal devotions to Her or quotes from the Bible, show us how you love Mary.

Amen.

You need to get some things straight, my brother:

1: I don’t know of any non-RC who said “I love Mary”. For my own part: I admire her greatly. Her obedience; her humility, her perseverence. Mary, and those which the RC church call “the saints” are great rolemodels that all Christians would do well to try to imitate.
But I do not LOVE her. For two reasons:

1.1: I believe she is dead, and has been for some 2000 years, give and take. I never knew her; nor has anyone for 2000 years. How can I love someone I never knew?

1.2: I do not believe (which basically follows from 1.1, I guess) that Mary is my “mother”, or that she intervenes with intercessory prayers. She is dead; lying in a grave somewhere deep beneath the soil of present day Israel, and shall rise again on the Last Day along with the rest of those who have died in Christ.

And secondly:
2.

Your arrogant demand that those who do not believe in the teachings of the RC church about Mary shows that you need to grow up a little…

 

[adstrinity]

You need to get some things straight, my brother:

1: I don’t know of any non-RC who said “I love Mary”. For my own part: I admire her greatly. Her obedience; her humility, her perseverence. Mary, and those which the RC church call “the saints” are great rolemodels that all Christians would do well to try to imitate.
But I do not LOVE her. For two reasons:

1.1: I believe she is dead, and has been for some 2000 years, give and take. I never knew her; nor has anyone for 2000 years. How can I love someone I never knew?

1.2: I do not believe (which basically follows from 1.1, I guess) that Mary is my “mother”, or that she intervenes with intercessory prayers. She is dead; lying in a grave somewhere deep beneath the soil of present day Israel, and shall rise again on the Last Day along with the rest of those who have died in Christ.

And secondly:
2.

Your arrogant demand that those who do not believe in the teachings of the RC church about Mary shows that you need to grow up a little…

I am a female.

 

[LilyM]

You need to get some things straight, my brother:

1: I don’t know of any non-RC who said “I love Mary”. For my own part: I admire her greatly. Her obedience; her humility, her perseverence. Mary, and those which the RC church call “the saints” are great rolemodels that all Christians would do well to try to imitate.
But I do not LOVE her. For two reasons:

1.1: I believe she is dead, and has been for some 2000 years, give and take. I never knew her; nor has anyone for 2000 years. How can I love someone I never knew?.

Ah, but Jesus said ‘love one another as I have loved you’. His love certainly transcends physical death, and He would not command that our love resemble His in this and every other respect, if it were not possible for us to do so.

1.2: … She is dead; lying in a grave somewhere deep beneath the soil of present day Israel, and shall rise again on the Last Day along with the rest of those who have died in Christ.

What? Not Ephesus, Turkey?

Got to respectfully disagree here. ‘He who believes in Me WILL NEVER DIE’. That is never BE dead - at least not spiritually. Not even for a single instant, let alone for thousands of years.

And to be alive in Christ, as Mary undoubtedly is, is surely to be even MORE alive and capable of more things than you and I who are shackled by our temporal limitations. You’re making out like we humans will be less powerful and more limited in the afterlife even than we are now - totally unable to do simple things like hear and see our brothers and sisters, pray with them and for them and so on.

 

[LutheranDK]

I am a female.

Ok, I am sorry for that.
“Sister”, then.
But could you please respond to the contents of the post?

 

[LutheranDK]

Ah, but Jesus said ‘love one another as I have loved you’. His love certainly transcends physical death, and He would not command that our love resemble His in this and every other respect, if it were not possible for us to do so.

True. And I do love my brothers and sisters in Christ - even those i do not know, so my earlier wording was not the best, I agree.
Now, what I meant was, that I do not feel that I can ask someone who’s dead to pray for me. They’re dead, and has thereby ceased to exist (implicitly: until the last day).

What? Not Ephesus, Turkey?

Got to respectfully disagree here. ‘He who believes in Me WILL NEVER DIE’. That is never BE dead - at least not spiritually. Not even for a single instant, let alone for thousands of years.

I didn’t know Mary came to Ephesus…well, then it’s probably there she’s buried somewhere - not that it changes the point I was making
What Jesus is saying will not happen to the believer is the “second death” (using the words from Revalation). I can’t see how you can read it any other way?

And to be alive in Christ, as Mary undoubtedly is, is surely to be even MORE alive and capable of more things than you and I who are shackled by our temporal limitations.

What IS “to be alive in Christ”? I see death as a dreamless sleep. It doesn’t matter to you if a year passes before the coming of the Last Day, or if 10 millenia passes. It’s all the same. The thought of some kind of “hereafter” for the soul, seperated from the body (and thereby an event taking place before the resurrection of the flesh), is not one that I can find in Scripture.

You’re making out like we humans will be less powerful and more limited in the afterlife even than we are now - totally unable to do simple things like hear and see our brothers and sisters, pray with them and for them and so on.

I’m saying that until the Last Judgement, when the Lord Jesus shall return in glory, to let those who believed in His name into the Kingdom of Heaven, and to judge those who refused Him; until that time, there is no afterlife.

In Him

Mark

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;4321969]
Originally Posted by LutheranDK
You need to get some things straight, my brother:

1: I don’t know of any non-RC who said “I love Mary”. For my own part: I admire her greatly. Her obedience; her humility, her perseverence. Mary, and those which the RC church call “the saints” are great rolemodels that all Christians would do well to try to imitate.
But I do not LOVE her. For two reasons:

1.1: I believe she is dead, and has been for some 2000 years, give and take. I never knew her; nor has anyone for 2000 years. How can I love someone I never knew?.

LilyM
Ah, but Jesus said ‘love one another as I have loved you’. His love certainly transcends physical death, and He would not command that our love resemble His in this and every other respect, if it were not possible for us to do so.

There is no reason to think that the command to love your neighbor as yourself would include dead people. Look at the OT. When Moses died did the Lord command the people to continue to love Moses? Do we have any record of the people showing their love for Moses after he died?
How about king David?

Lets look at the NT. When Stephen was killed are there any records in the NT saying the he is still their neighbor and they are to love him as their neighbor?

The only way that the command makes sense is that person must be alive in this world and there is some kind of physical relationship going on. This is not possible with those who have died. There is a place in Ecclesiastes 12: 5 that describes the relationship between the living here and the dead.----Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective.** For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.**

It is clear that there is a separation and no communication. This would have been an excellent place for Scripture to show that the dead are still your neighbor but as we can see it does not.

 

[adstrinity]

But could you please respond to the contents of the post?

No. No need. You’ve said your peace and explained how you understand things, there’s nothing to which to reply.

 

[adstrinity]

There is no reason to think that the command to love your neighbor as yourself would include dead people. Look at the OT. When Moses died did the Lord command the people to continue to love Moses? Do we have any record of the people showing their love for Moses after he died?
How about king David?

Lets look at the NT. When Stephen was killed are there any records in the NT saying the he is still their neighbor and they are to love him as their neighbor?

The only way that the command makes sense is that person must be alive in this world and there is some kind of physical relationship going on. This is not possible with those who have died. There is a place in Ecclesiastes 12: 5 that describes the relationship between the living here and the dead.----Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective.** For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.**

It is clear that there is a separation and no communication. This would have been an excellent place for Scripture to show that the dead are still your neighbor but as we can see it does not.

…Until you put this in context of Psalms, 2nd Maccabees, 2nd Timothy, Revelation, and Church History where Masses were said on the graves of saints in the pre-canonization Church for whom prayers were said.

This has nothing to do with the topic, though, and I thank you to start another thread on the different topic, keeping this one to allow Protestants to have their say on how they feel about Our Blessed Virgin Mother.

 

[justasking4]

…Until you put this in context of Psalms, 2nd Maccabees, 2nd Timothy, Revelation, and Church History where Masses were said on the graves of saints in the pre-canonization Church for whom prayers were said.

This has nothing to do with the topic, though, and I thank you to start another thread on the different topic, keeping this one to allow Protestants to have their say on how they feel about Our Blessed Virgin Mother.

The response is relevant to the topic. A relationship is assumed with Mary and yet there is no basis for it in Scripture due to the nature of death and separation.

 

[HannahLisa]

Quite honestly, Mary isn’t someone I think about on a day to day basis. When I do think about her, I wonder how she felt, experiencing what she did. I have great respect for her.

But I have never met her, and I do not know how to love someone I have never met. I also agree with the person who said that carrying on relationships with dead people is something common in tribalism.

Just because Mary said “all generations shall call me blessed” does not mean we are supposed to ask her to pray for us regularly or to praise her. I would say that, when I think of her, I do call her blessed - she was blessed to be the mother of our - and her - Savior. But I don’t see how that translates to asking her to pray for me for everything. Especially since I have not seen any Biblical proof (or Early Church Fathers proof) that asking those who have passed to pray for us is something we have to do or even should do.