Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

[Anna_Scott]

Protestants: Sinner’s Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

I am a former Baptist, visiting an Episcopal Church. I know that most Baptists and many other Protestant Christians believe one must pray some form of what is called the “Sinner’s Prayer” to receive salvation.

For those who believe in the Sinner’s Prayer:

(1.) What elements must the Sinner’s Prayer contain?

(2.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that assure salvation immediately and forever, even before judgment?

or

(3.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that place a person on the path to salvation, without assurance of salvation, until judgment?

(4.) What Scriptures reveal the need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer?

(5.) What is the approximate date of the earliest known practice of the Sinner’s Prayer?

I welcome all comments.

Anna

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

(1.) What elements must the Sinner’s Prayer contain?

A. Faith in God
B. Sorrow for Sins

(2.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that assure salvation immediately and forever, even before judgment?

A. No. We can change our minds about both faith in God and sorrow for sins. The important thing is to die with faith in God, hope in God who saves sinners, and love for God who saves me.

(3.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that place a person on the path to salvation, without assurance of salvation, until judgment?

Ans: Yes.

(4.) What Scriptures reveal the need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer?

Ans: The guy who is compared favorably to the Pharisee in their prayers by our Lord. While striking his breast something like, “Lord be merciful to me a sinner.” It isn’t like the words or acts are some formula. The words and acts must be a sign of an interior disposition. It can certainly be helpful to us to vocalize our prayers, even if they are not strictly necessary.

(5.) What is the approximate date of the earliest known practice of the Sinner’s Prayer?

Ans: 4000 BC. Adam and Eve would have needed to be repentant if they are saved. Genesis 4 or 5 says in praise of Seth, their second child, “this man began to call upon the name of the Lord”. Presumably, he began in a way that Christ would have commended, with faith in God and sorrow for sins.

---

I was a Baptist preacher and have spent literally thousands of hours knocking on door in an activity we called soul-winning. I have to admit that the way I was taught, there was not enough emphasis on interior disposition. I was in a college scenario where it was kind of competitive as to numbers. I think this was a radical extreme that few ordinary Baptists believe in. Over time, even while I was a student, I spoke with other students who were skeptical of simply talking someone into saying some words. We also thought that this was the moment of regeneration, and that it could not be repeated nor lost. In order to make sure the person I was talking to understood, I would ask if they would go to heaven if they died that moment. If they said yes, I was encouraged. Then I would ask what would happen if they failed to go to church, would they still go to heaven? I still wanted a yes answer. If I got a yes, I asked if they would go to heaven if they committed murder. If they answered yes, I knew they had understood, and were in my mind, saved.

My answers above reflect my continuing belief in the value of the “sinner’s prayer” as a Catholic. I have faith that the good God who has offered His own Son for sinners will never forsake the one who would mean that prayer. I do not know think it means they will necessarily end up in the Catholic Church, but it seems likely in most cases. In any case, I think one who maintains the spirit of the sinner’s prayer in their heart cannot fail to be aided by graces sufficient for salvation. If I understand correctly it would be as older theologians used to describe, that they can belong to the soul, if not the body of the Church, being in a state of grace, but not visibly attached to the Catholic Church.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Its not what you say but what you believe and it is that belief and faith which insures salvation. The evangelist only says the prayer because the new Christian thinks it can’t be that easy, lead me I don’t want to make a mistake.

 

[Anna_Scott]

RoryMcKenzie56,

I really appreciate your comments, especially since you are a former Baptist Preacher, who converted to Catholicism. You have a unique insight into the issue of the “Sinner’s Prayer,” which plays such a strong role in salvation, according to the beliefs of many in the Baptist Faith.

(1.) What elements must the Sinner’s Prayer contain?

A. Faith in God
B. Sorrow for Sins

I think most all Christians would agree that one must have faith in God, and believe in His Son, whose sacrifice made our reconciliation to God possible—and that sorrow for sins, repentance, is necessary for salvation.

(2.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that assure salvation immediately and forever, even before judgment?

A. No. We can change our minds about both faith in God and sorrow for sins. The important thing is to die with faith in God, hope in God who saves sinners, and love for God who saves me.

I agree. I think most Baptists would disagree, and other Protestants, as well.

(3.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that place a person on the path to salvation, without assurance of salvation, until judgment?

Ans: Yes.

I agree.

(4.) What Scriptures reveal the need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer?

Ans: The guy who is compared favorably to the Pharisee in their prayers by our Lord. While striking his breast something like, “Lord be merciful to me a sinner.” It isn’t like the words or acts are some formula. The words and acts must be a sign of an interior disposition. It can certainly be helpful to us to vocalize our prayers, even if they are not strictly necessary.

Excellent example. “Lord be merciful to me a sinner,” says a great deal in only a few words.

(5.) What is the approximate date of the earliest known practice of the Sinner’s Prayer?

Ans: 4000 BC. Adam and Eve would have needed to be repentant if they are saved. Genesis 4 or 5 says in praise of Seth, their second child, “this man began to call upon the name of the Lord”. Presumably, he began in a way that Christ would have commended, with faith in God and sorrow for sins.

Very interesting. -------

I was a Baptist preacher and have spent literally thousands of hours knocking on door in an activity we called soul-winning. I have to admit that the way I was taught, there was not enough emphasis on interior disposition. I was in a college scenario where it was kind of competitive as to numbers. I think this was a radical extreme that few ordinary Baptists believe in. Over time, even while I was a student, I spoke with other students who were skeptical of simply talking someone into saying some words. We also thought that this was the moment of regeneration, and that it could not be repeated nor lost. In order to make sure the person I was talking to understood, I would ask if they would go to heaven if they died that moment. If they said yes, I was encouraged. Then I would ask what would happen if they failed to go to church, would they still go to heaven? I still wanted a yes answer. If I got a yes, I asked if they would go to heaven if they committed murder. If they answered yes, I knew they had understood, and were in my mind, saved.

I understand this approach to salvation. Believed it at one time. Disagree now.

My answers above reflect my continuing belief in the value of the “sinner’s prayer” as a Catholic. I have faith that the good God who has offered His own Son for sinners will never forsake the one who would mean that prayer. I do not know think it means they will necessarily end up in the Catholic Church, but it seems likely in most cases. In any case, I think one who maintains the spirit of the sinner’s prayer in their heart cannot fail to be aided by graces sufficient for salvation. If I understand correctly it would be as older theologians used to describe, that they can belong to the soul, if not the body of the Church, being in a state of grace, but not visibly attached to the Catholic Church.

Very charitable response.

Pixie Dust started a thread entitled, “How do Catholics hear the Gospel?”

There is a very interesting link that deals with a type of evangelizing, very similar to that which you described above, when you were going door to door.

I found this story a while back, dug it out again (I gots Google skillz ) and it was suggested that I share it in a new thread. Enjoy!

I began to consider the Episcopal liturgy in the Church I have been visiting. Of course, there are no alter calls, as in the Baptist Church; and no prayer formula that guarantees salvation. However, the Gospel, and the elements contained in most “Sinner’s Prayers,” are contained in the liturgy.

I know the Catholic liturgy is very similar. So, if the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed and confessed in Catholic liturgy; why do some Baptists say that Catholics (and others- whose worship services are liturgical) are not Christians. This makes no sense to me.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Its not what you say but what you believe and it is that belief and faith which insures salvation. The evangelist only says the prayer because the new Christian thinks it can’t be that easy, lead me I don’t want to make a mistake.

4Squarebaby,

I appreciate your comments. I agree that what we believe and faith is far more important than the words we speak.

I also agree that in many cases, an Evangelist may want to help the new Christian. However, I think, far too often, the Evangelist oversimplifies the Gospel. I believe salvation involves far more than one moment in time, when a “Sinner’s Prayer” is prayed.

Appreciate your contribution to the Thread, and welcome further comments.

Anna

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Anna Scott
I began to consider the Episcopal liturgy in the Church I have been visiting. Of course, there are no alter calls, as in the Baptist Church; and no prayer formula that guarantees salvation. However, the Gospel, and the elements contained in most “Sinner’s Prayers,” are contained in the liturgy.

I know the Catholic liturgy is very similar. So, if the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed and confessed in Catholic liturgy; why do some Baptists say that Catholics (and others- whose worship services are liturgical) are not Christians. This makes no sense to me.

Rory56
Hi Anna Scott.

I am pleased you appreciated some of my thoughts on your question. I called myself Baptist for only about about ten or eleven years, and “baptistic” a few years after that. I am aware that here in the States where I live, in the short time of 20 years since I have been absent, there have been some interesting changes, at least on the level of seminary/preacher training. There seems to be a moderating influence which I think of as moving in the right direction. I was a fundamental Baptist of the late 70’s and early 80’s. I can remember a joke that went around pulpits that I probably used a time or two myself. It goes like this: "Preacher, what would you be if you weren’t a Baptist? (It’s all about timing.) For best effect, you need to quickly scan the meeting room like you pondering…for no more than a second… before you respond to your own question: “Well, if I wasn’t a Baptist, I’d be ashamed.” Ha ha, chortle, chortle. It was a guaranteed identification with any congregation before you even opened your Bible to preach! Heh. I don’t suppose I’ll ever hear a priest start off his homily with why he is Catholic in that way. Anyway…I have the fondest memories of the old days and my old friends. I and they surely had some good motives, and love for souls. I am still in touch with my best friend from college, and we are on the best terms. God bless them all.

The kind of Baptists I ran with had no problem thinking they had salvation doctrine nailed. We knew that Catholics believed and usually professed an element of works that would be a defining factor in whether someone had been saved. If it was pointed out that there are prayers in the Catholic liturgy (or Anglican) that standing alone would seem like a sinner’s prayer, we would still be concerned about corrupting influences. But we wouldn’t have ruled out the possibility that someone was “saved” in spite of official Catholic teachings.

Speaking for myself, I would need to be convinced that any particular Catholic or Anglican had been saved through liturgical prayers by asking them the questions I often asked those who had prayed the sinner’s prayer as described above in my “personal work” (another name for door to door visitation).

Regards,

Rory

 

[Padrej]

Rory
From reading your posts it almost sounds like you have a formula in mind as to what a sinner’s prayer absolutely MUST contain. In my reading of scripture and study of ancient Greek I really find no formula that has been set in stone. I feel that WE are the ones who make it harder on a person to get into the kingdom by making a person jump though hoops of our own making.

I remember one time serving as a hospital chaplain and was called by a family member to the bedside of a dying man because the family wanted him “saved.” This was more of a last minute want to make sure thing for them, but this guy was not going to use the exact words that they wanted him to use so they thought that he was going to go to Hell. I asked them to give me 5 minutes alone. (This was one of those sick the minister on them situations if all else fails) So as I spoke to the man he told me how he loved the Lord and made peace with Him. When I went out side the room the family jumped me saying, “Did you get him saved?” I told them, “If you had listened to what he was saying he was already saved.” The look of shock and horror was astounding. I knew the church that this person attended and their pastor so I knew how far I could go with this conversation so I continued, “Let me ask you something, in order to love somebody do you not have to accept them?” The answer was, “Yes.” I told this person simply, “This man in his own way has told you that he has accepted the Lord, just because it is not in the formula of a particular sinner’s prayer that is used at your church does not mean that this man is not saved.” The lady looked in utter shock, and I continued, “Does the Bible not tell us that true worship come from the heart and God warns that false worship is with the lips only?” Her response was, “Yes, the Bible tells us that God hates people who worship with their lips when their heart is far from Him.” My response was then to say, “This man by saying, “I love the Lord has said I have taken him in because you cannot love someone that you have not accepted.”

When you say “Speaking for myself, I would need to be convinced that any particular Catholic or Anglican had been saved through liturgical prayers by asking them the questions I often asked those who had prayed the sinner’s prayer as described above in my “personal work” (another name for door to door visitation).” It raised a question in my mind as to where your heart was if you judged a person on the content of the prayer or the content of the heart. Are you placing yourself in the place of God to say, “because this formula of words was or was not said I wont accept him/her?” Are you saying that this is how God works? Please tell this Anglican the answer to that question.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Hi Anna Scott.

I am pleased you appreciated some of my thoughts on your question. I called myself Baptist for only about about ten or eleven years, and “baptistic” a few years after that. I am aware that here in the States where I live, in the short time of 20 years since I have been absent, there have been some interesting changes, at least on the level of seminary/preacher training. There seems to be a moderating influence which I think of as moving in the right direction.

Agreed: A moderating influence would be a move in the right direction.

Sadly, in Texas, there are many extremes. I do know that Baptist Churches can vary widely in doctrine and beliefs–depending on the Minister.

Some longtime Baptist Ministers are voicing concerns about the decisions made by the Southern Baptist Convention.

I was a fundamental Baptist of the late 70’s and early 80’s. I can remember a joke that went around pulpits that I probably used a time or two myself. It goes like this: "Preacher, what would you be if you weren’t a Baptist? (It’s all about timing.) For best effect, you need to quickly scan the meeting room like you pondering…for no more than a second… before you respond to your own question: “Well, if I wasn’t a Baptist, I’d be ashamed.” Ha ha, chortle, chortle. It was a guaranteed identification with any congregation before you even opened your Bible to preach! Heh. I don’t suppose I’ll ever hear a priest start off his homily with why he is Catholic in that way. Anyway…I have the fondest memories of the old days and my old friends. I and they surely had some good motives, and love for souls. I am still in touch with my best friend from college, and we are on the best terms. God bless them all.

I can definitely see that joke going over very well.

I’m glad to hear that you have maintained your friendships.

I submitted my formal resignation letter to the Baptist Church at the end of January, 2010. I haven’t heard from anyone.

The kind of Baptists I ran with had no problem thinking they had salvation doctrine nailed. We knew that Catholics believed and usually professed an element of works that would be a defining factor in whether someone had been saved. If it was pointed out that there are prayers in the Catholic liturgy (or Anglican) that standing alone would seem like a sinner’s prayer, we would still be concerned about corrupting influences. But we wouldn’t have ruled out the possibility that someone was “saved” in spite of official Catholic teachings.

Good to hear.

However, there are many Baptists who claim that Catholics are not Christians. Very sad. None of us have the right to judge the heart of another.

I will be forever grateful for all the help given to me by Catholics on these forums. I see Catholics demonstrate the love of Christ, everyday.

Speaking for myself, I would need to be convinced that any particular Catholic or Anglican had been saved through liturgical prayers by asking them the questions I often asked those who had prayed the sinner’s prayer as described above in my “personal work” (another name for door to door visitation).

Regards,

Rory

Even now, you would ask these questions?

. . . . .In order to make sure the person I was talking to understood, I would ask if they would go to heaven if they died that moment. If they said yes, I was encouraged. Then I would ask what would happen if they failed to go to church, would they still go to heaven? I still wanted a yes answer. If I got a yes, I asked if they would go to heaven if they committed murder. If they answered yes, I knew they had understood, and were in my mind, saved. . . . .

Appreciate your comments,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .in my reading of scripture and study of ancient greek i really find no formula that has been set in stone. I feel that we are the ones who make it harder on a person to get into the kingdom by making a person jump though hoops of our own making.

I could not recall any situations from the New Testament, where anyone was instructed to pray a certain prayer for their salvation. So, it is interesting to hear that in your studies, no formula was found in Scripture and ancient Greek.

There are a number of instances when the sick called out to Christ, “Lord, have mercy on us.”

**Matthew 20 (ESV): **29 And as they went out of Jericho, a great crowd followed him. 30 And behold, there were two blind men sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was passing by, they cried out, “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!”

In Romans, we find confession that Jesus is Lord, and belief that God raised him for the dead, leads to salvation. I know that much more is said throughout the N.T., including the fact that faith without works is dead. So, I am not dismissing everything else that leads to salvation.

Romans 10 (ESV): 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

**8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. **

10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Perhaps, the words spoken have less significance than the intentions of the heart.

i remember one time serving as a hospital chaplain and was called by a family member to the bedside of a dying man because the family wanted him “saved.” this was more of a last minute want to make sure thing for them, but this guy was not going to use the exact words that they wanted him to use so they thought that he was going to go to hell. I asked them to give me 5 minutes alone. (this was one of those sick the minister on them situations if all else fails) so as i spoke to the man he told me how he loved the lord and made peace with him. When i went out side the room the family jumped me saying, “did you get him saved?” i told them, “if you had listened to what he was saying he was already saved.” the look of shock and horror was astounding.

I knew the church that this person attended and their pastor so i knew how far i could go with this conversation so i continued, “let me ask you something, in order to love somebody do you not have to accept them?” the answer was, “yes.” i told this person simply, “this man in his own way has told you that he has accepted the lord, just because it is not in the formula of a particular sinner’s prayer that is used at your church does not mean that this man is not saved.” the lady looked in utter shock, and i continued, “does the bible not tell us that true worship come from the heart and god warns that false worship is with the lips only?” her response was, “yes, the bible tells us that god hates people who worship with their lips when their heart is far from him.” my response was then to say, “this man by saying, “i love the lord has said i have taken him in because you cannot love someone that you have not accepted.”

Thank you for sharing this beautiful story.

Anna

 

[Churchwilprevai]

Protestants: Sinner’s Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

I am a former Baptist, visiting an Episcopal Church. I know that most Baptists and many other Protestant Christians believe one must pray some form of what is called the “Sinner’s Prayer” to receive salvation.

For those who believe in the Sinner’s Prayer:

(1.) What elements must the Sinner’s Prayer contain?

(2.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that assure salvation immediately and forever, even before judgment?

or

(3.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that place a person on the path to salvation, without assurance of salvation, until judgment?

(4.) What Scriptures reveal the need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer?

(5.) What is the approximate date of the earliest known practice of the Sinner’s Prayer?

I welcome all comments.

Anna

The Sinners Prayer is not in the bible and won’t save you. It was derived only 50 years ago by Billy Graham.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The Sinners Prayer is not in the bible and won’t save you. It was derived only 50 years ago by Billy Graham.

I did, also, find that the Sinner’s Prayer was made popular by Billy Graham. Though it is older than 50 years. Versions of the Sinner’s Prayer started at some point after the Protestant Reformation. So, it is still a new idea.

I think prayed with a sincere heart, some versions of this prayer can place us on the path to salvation. I do not believe the prayer, alone, saves us–as there is far more to salvation than an event of one moment in time. I think there are some exceptions to this, such as true repentance in the last few moments before death.

Appreciate your comments,
Anna

 

[crazzeto]

I did, also, find that the Sinner’s Prayer was made popular by Billy Graham. Though it is older than 50 years. Versions of the Sinner’s Prayer started at some point after the Protestant Reformation. So, it is still a new idea.

I think prayed with a sincere heart, some versions of this prayer can place us on the path to salvation. I do not believe the prayer, alone, saves us–as there is far more to salvation than an event of one moment in time. I think there are some exceptions to this, such as true repentance in the last few moments before death.

Appreciate your comments,
Anna

I suppose I can go along with “on the path of” in so far as it is certainly a statement that you are now seeking God. More over, because it’s a prayer, it’s a statement to God. Beyond that, I disagree, for instance there are no actual graces (that can be verified) received durring or after the prayer. it’s a prayer like any other. What God does with it, is up to him.

The sacraments, however fit much better with what people think of with regard to a sinners prayer. Durring baptism your old you dies, you are remade in the image of Christ and being the process of dieing with him (completed with your death). Through confession, your sins are aboslved. Through confirmation you are more perfectly formed to Christ. You receive actual graces for this, but for a sinners prayer? Who knows, I’m a little dubious on that note.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

PadreJ
From reading your posts it almost sounds like you have a formula in mind as to what a sinner’s prayer absolutely MUST contain. In my reading of scripture and study of ancient Greek I really find no formula that has been set in stone. I feel that WE are the ones who make it harder on a person to get into the kingdom by making a person jump though hoops of our own making.

Rory
Anna seemed to be asking what Protestants think. I thought my experience might give some insight. As you seem to be saying down below, its more about interior disposition. The danger of a formula is that it has the potential to be only exterior. I expressed my appreciation for my Baptist background, but I’m 100% Catholic. As a Catholic, I think there is value in the sinner’s prayer, or maybe should say, “a sinner’s prayer”. God seems to have promised He will come to such an one’s aid. I complete reject the notion that a one time disposition for God in your life that is absent at the moment of death is salvific. I don’t even believe in being “saved” in the way I once did. But I was trying to explain why, as a Catholic, I would think it is good every time someone says the sinner’s prayer from their heart.

Padrej
I remember one time serving as a hospital chaplain and was called by a family member to the bedside of a dying man because the family wanted him “saved.” This was more of a last minute want to make sure thing for them, but this guy was not going to use the exact words that they wanted him to use so they thought that he was going to go to Hell. I asked them to give me 5 minutes alone. (This was one of those sick the minister on them situations if all else fails) So as I spoke to the man he told me how he loved the Lord and made peace with Him. When I went out side the room the family jumped me saying, “Did you get him saved?” I told them, “If you had listened to what he was saying he was already saved.” The look of shock and horror was astounding. I knew the church that this person attended and their pastor so I knew how far I could go with this conversation so I continued, “Let me ask you something, in order to love somebody do you not have to accept them?” The answer was, “Yes.” I told this person simply, “This man in his own way has told you that he has accepted the Lord, just because it is not in the formula of a particular sinner’s prayer that is used at your church does not mean that this man is not saved.” The lady looked in utter shock, and I continued, “Does the Bible not tell us that true worship come from the heart and God warns that false worship is with the lips only?” Her response was, “Yes, the Bible tells us that God hates people who worship with their lips when their heart is far from Him.” My response was then to say, “This man by saying, “I love the Lord has said I have taken him in because you cannot love someone that you have not accepted.”

Rory
That sounds about how I would have been in the latter years of my ministry. You come to believe that a formulaic prayer is not necessary.

Padrej
When you say “Speaking for myself, I would need to be convinced that any particular Catholic or Anglican had been saved through liturgical prayers by asking them the questions I often asked those who had prayed the sinner’s prayer as described above in my “personal work” (another name for door to door visitation).” It raised a question in my mind as to where your heart was if you judged a person on the content of the prayer or the content of the heart. Are you placing yourself in the place of God to say, “because this formula of words was or was not said I wont accept him/her?” Are you saying that this is how God works? Please tell this Anglican the answer to that question.

Rory
I am afraid we were not terribly impressed with Catholic or Anglican doctrine. I am saying how, as a Baptist, I would have handled it if someone was said to be saved by virtue of Catholic or Anglican liturgical prayers. I had already explained that in my personal work, I emphasized that works were not salvific. For that reason I asked the folks who might have prayed with me questions to see if they understood eternal security. If they thought that they had to go to church or avoid certain mortal sins, I knew I hadn’t explained the Gospel, as I then understood it adequately and would need to do some explanations.

I don’t really have a lot of ambition to defend my past. I reject a lot of what I did in those days. But I cannot concede that to apply the same test to Anglicans or Catholics as I did to everyone else, to see if they understood what I meant by salvation is somehow judging another’s heart. I wasn’t judging hearts, but believing what people told me, and acting on it.

I was trying to explain to Anna why I doubt that I, as the kind of Baptist minister I was, could be comfortable in assuming that anyone who prayed the liturgical prayers that resembled a “sinner’s prayer” could then be assumed to be saved. If people get saved that way, what was the point of the Reformation? Doctrine mattered to us. What was Luther making such a big stink about if you can have screwy doctrine but be saved by saying the prayers at Mass anyway? I am confident that I was clear of judging anybody, and behaving consistently with the faith as I then understood it.

I am kind of sure Padrej that I gave you a misimpression somehow. I hope this clarifies a little better what I was trying to explain.

Regards,

Rory

 

[AmateurPianist]

Its not what you say but what you believe and it is that belief and faith which insures salvation. The evangelist only says the prayer because the new Christian thinks it can’t be that easy, lead me I don’t want to make a mistake.

I agree with this.

By saying it “insures salvation” I would mean salvation at that point in time.

Whether or not it is guaranteed salvation throughout the lifetime of the individual up to the point of death is a subject of your local Eternal Security thread.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

However, there are many Baptists who claim that Catholics are not Christians. Very sad. None of us have the right to judge the heart of another.<<

Hi Anna, I keep trying new ways to respond in these threads. For somereason, this website really gives my comptuer problems I try to bold, italicize, put in quotations and so on.

Anyway, I don’t see this as sad, nor do I see it as judging hearts. It is assuming that Catholics believe the Council of Trent. We would all have said that any Catholic could be saved, but it wouldn’t be because he believed the Council of Trent, but rather in a moment of grace (to our way of thinking), cried out to the God who saves with believing faith that rejects meritorious acts on our own part. I don’t think Baptists are guilty of judging my heart if they say I am unsaved. They are applying their beliefs to how things are if I can be taken at my word. Because of the false doctrines of salvation, we could hope in the salvation of Catholics, not because of the errors of their Church, but in spite of those errors.

I will be forever grateful for all the help given to me by Catholics on these forums. I see Catholics demonstrate the love of Christ, everyday.<<

I am really glad to hear that. Me too. That is the best argument against anti-Catholic doctrine. Well, biblical arguments are better…but you know I mean. It is probably the most effective!

Even now, you would ask these questions?<<

No. I was trying to give a response to your original post which seemed to be asking why some Protestants would question the salvation of Catholics or Anglicans if prayers like the sinner’s prayer could be found in their liturgies. In my old days, and I’m going back almost 20 years now, I believed in Christian Unity. Only very serious errors could be a just reason for splitting away and starting new churches. I could never have justified the Reformation if Catholics were being saved by the prayers at Mass. We thought that we had to take into consideration the doctrines that the Catholic Church teaches. Catholics believed they are regenerated by baptism that must be maintained by works (we didn’t allow that these could be works of grace), and that salvation can be forfeited by sin. This was a false Gospel to me that would lead one to damnation. If the message of the Catholic Church would save, then I had a duty to join…and that is what I did…in 1995.

To believe that the Catholic Church preaches the Gospel of salvation is to declare yourself needing to undo the unnecessary damage done by Luther, Calvin, and their children for the last 500 years. In my opinion, Protestantism was and is causing harm and confusion if Catholics have always had and continue to have the saving Gospel. I have never budged an inch from that principle in over thirty years since I first believed in Christ as a Baptist.

Rory

 

[Padrej]

I suppose I can go along with “on the path of” in so far as it is certainly a statement that you are now seeking God. More over, because it’s a prayer, it’s a statement to God. Beyond that, I disagree, for instance there are no actual graces (that can be verified) received durring or after the prayer. it’s a prayer like any other. What God does with it, is up to him.

The sacraments, however fit much better with what people think of with regard to a sinners prayer. Durring baptism your old you dies, you are remade in the image of Christ and being the process of dieing with him (completed with your death). Through confession, your sins are aboslved. Through confirmation you are more perfectly formed to Christ. You receive actual graces for this, but for a sinners prayer? Who knows, I’m a little dubious on that note.

I am not big on the liturgical formula when it comes to the sinner’s prayer. I do feel that it does boil down to the condition of the heart. I have always been taught that even if you make a confession to a priest with the intention of doing the same sin again that this is not a valid confession. This is why I say, it comes down to the intention of the heart on these things. I know that in times past I have used the thief on the cross, he admitted that he was rightfully condemned and then turned to Jesus and said “Remember me…”
I think that it is we in the church who make the confession and profession of our faith so difficult that hardly a soul wants to do it.

Now I know that each church has it own formula if you will for this profession of the faith, but to my knowledge I do not think there should be or is any set in stone way of accepting Jesus into your heart. Everyone does this in a different manner. God does not reveal Himself to me the same way that he reveals himself to you all of the time. TRUE that He does through His Word, but what I am speaking here is on an individual level.

 

[crazzeto]

I am not big on the liturgical formula when it comes to the sinner’s prayer. I do feel that it does boil down to the condition of the heart. I have always been taught that even if you make a confession to a priest with the intention of doing the same sin again that this is not a valid confession. This is why I say, it comes down to the intention of the heart on these things. I know that in times past I have used the thief on the cross, he admitted that he was rightfully condemned and then turned to Jesus and said “Remember me…”
I think that it is we in the church who make the confession and profession of our faith so difficult that hardly a soul wants to do it.

Now I know that each church has it own formula if you will for this profession of the faith, but to my knowledge I do not think there should be or is any set in stone way of accepting Jesus into your heart. Everyone does this in a different manner. God does not reveal Himself to me the same way that he reveals himself to you all of the time. TRUE that He does through His Word, but what I am speaking here is on an individual level.

There is no doctrinal teaching regarding “accepting Jesus into your heart”, more over the idea of “accepting Jesus into your heart” is non-biblical. This isn’t to say it’s a bad idea, it certainly expresses something which is a good idea… It’s a good idea to accept Jesus as saviour, and accept that in a personal sense, but where I disagree is the extent which many (but not all) protistants take this. It is the central theological principal, so many churches around me teach “accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your own personal Lord and Saviour and your saved ”

Not quite, like Anna says it’s a good starting piont. And I would futher clarify for my part, it’s a good starting point in that now your beging the process of nurturing and building faith in Christ.

But this does not, and should not preclude the sacraments. Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour doesn’t nullify baptism, or the need to seek reconciliation. Christians need the graces from these sacraments in order to build a good, healthy strong faith, working through love.

 

[Anna_Scott]

There is no doctrinal teaching regarding “accepting Jesus into your heart”, more over the idea of “accepting Jesus into your heart” is non-biblical. This isn’t to say it’s a bad idea, it certainly expresses something which is a good idea… It’s a good idea to accept Jesus as saviour, and accept that in a personal sense, but where I disagree is the extent which many (but not all) protistants take this. It is the central theological principal, so many churches around me teach “accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your own personal Lord and Saviour and your saved ”

Not quite, like Anna says it’s a good starting piont. And I would futher clarify for my part, it’s a good starting point in that now your beging the process of nurturing and building faith in Christ.

But this does not, and should not preclude the sacraments. Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour doesn’t nullify baptism, or the need to seek reconciliation. Christians need the graces from these sacraments in order to build a good, healthy strong faith, working through love.

crazzeto,

Appreciate your comments. I do not recall any account in the New Testament of anyone specifically asking Jesus to come into their hearts; and the phrase “personal savior” does not appear in the New Testament. However, I don’t think the prayer is a bad idea; and as I said before, the prayer can place us on the path to salvation. You agreed this is a starting point.

One interesting note about the phrase “personal savior”: I read an article by a Jewish writer regarding his encounters with Christians who visit Israel, his home. He spoke about Christians who tried to convert him. He actually found the phrase “personal savior” disrespectful to God.

I think the Sinner’s Pray is often presented in a way that does not reveal the fact that there is a path of salvation. The prayer is presented as a formula and as an assurance of salvation–which is not Biblical.

I am slowing coming to realize the importance of the Sacraments.

Thank you,
Anna

 

[4Squarebaby]

I am not big on the liturgical formula when it comes to the sinner’s prayer. I do feel that it does boil down to the condition of the heart. I have always been taught that even if you make a confession to a priest with the intention of doing the same sin again that this is not a valid confession. This is why I say, it comes down to the intention of the heart on these things. I know that in times past I have used the thief on the cross, he admitted that he was rightfully condemned and then turned to Jesus and said “Remember me…”
I think that it is we in the church who make the confession and profession of our faith so difficult that hardly a soul wants to do it.

Now I know that each church has it own formula if you will for this profession of the faith, but to my knowledge I do not think there should be or is any set in stone way of accepting Jesus into your heart. Everyone does this in a different manner. God does not reveal Himself to me the same way that he reveals himself to you all of the time. TRUE that He does through His Word, but what I am speaking here is on an individual level.

I agree, consider who the evangelist is dealing with. A former nonbeliever who has moved past the natural and accepted the supernatural by having faith in Jesus. Before this point the stories he has seen of the supernatural have been the occult and the good/bad witches.

In fiction he sees all manner of mayhem occur because the witch mispronouces one word from a foriegn language. The new Christian brings that life story installed prejudice to his new found faith and asked to be walked through that “siner’s prayer” so that he does not say the wrong thing to God and have mayhem happen because of it.

 

[Padrej]

There is no doctrinal teaching regarding “accepting Jesus into your heart”, more over the idea of “accepting Jesus into your heart” is non-biblical. This isn’t to say it’s a bad idea, it certainly expresses something which is a good idea… It’s a good idea to accept Jesus as saviour, and accept that in a personal sense, but where I disagree is the extent which many (but not all) protistants take this. It is the central theological principal, so many churches around me teach “accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your own personal Lord and Saviour and your saved ”

Not quite, like Anna says it’s a good starting piont. And I would futher clarify for my part, it’s a good starting point in that now your beging the process of nurturing and building faith in Christ.

But this does not, and should not preclude the sacraments. Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour doesn’t nullify baptism, or the need to seek reconciliation. Christians need the graces from these sacraments in order to build a good, healthy strong faith, working through love.

I would not go so far as to say “accepting Jesus into your heart IS NOT doctrine,” as scripture says you must confess Christ as Lord and be baptized in order to be saved. I think each church uses it own wording that may be different around this.
This comes from the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church on the subject of “saved.”

1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans. Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer “was baptized at once, with all his family.”

2744 Prayer is a vital necessity. Proof from the contrary is no less convincing: if we do not allow the Spirit to lead us, we fall back into the slavery of sin. How can the Holy Spirit be our life if our heart is far from him?
Nothing is equal to prayer; for what is impossible it makes possible, what is difficult, easy… For it is impossible, utterly impossible, for the man who prays eagerly and invokes God ceaselessly ever to sin.
Those who pray are certainly saved; those who do not pray are certainly damned.

2822 Our Father “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” He “is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish.” His commandment is “that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” This commandment summarizes all the others and expresses his entire will.

74 God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”: that is, of Christ Jesus. Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:
God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

1054 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

Seems like the highlighted areas would be doctrine if you ask me.