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brb3
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G-4 answered U on this
Big difference between God’s foreknowledge of discord and its causation.
Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?
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Big difference between God’s foreknowledge of discord and its causation.
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brb3
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We’ve gotten off topic here. Back to the subject.
It’s bedrock soteriology for many Protestants. Billy Graham used it in his evangelism revivals to win many lost souls. Graham was a S. Baptist, and isn’t it interesting that the BAPTIST put their prayer of contrition BEFORE their Sacrament of submersion. The Baptists follow the account of early Church @ Pentecost. On the otherhand, many Catholics reject the Sinner’s Prayer, out of belief that Baptism MUST of necessity preceed salvation. Are they right ?
Scripture gives us examples of baptism preceeding receipt of H.S. [the majority of additions to the Church on Pentecost //// by Confession, Water Baptism, and then receipt of H.S.] … and other cases [like Paul’s and Cornelius], where faith/confession and receipt of H.S. preceeded Water Baptism.
Nevertheless, it is ALWAYS FAITH & CONFESSION that comes first. This is where the Sinner’s Prayer gains its Power & Authority. And, why the Bible teaches that ‘prayer of contrition’ is essential to pleasing God.
IMO, the Protestant’s ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ = Catholic’s ‘Prayer of Contrition/Confession’
Am I wrong ?
It’s bedrock soteriology for many Protestants. Billy Graham used it in his evangelism revivals to win many lost souls. Graham was a S. Baptist, and isn’t it interesting that the BAPTIST put their prayer of contrition BEFORE their Sacrament of submersion. The Baptists follow the account of early Church @ Pentecost. On the otherhand, many Catholics reject the Sinner’s Prayer, out of belief that Baptism MUST of necessity preceed salvation. Are they right ?
Scripture gives us examples of baptism preceeding receipt of H.S. [the majority of additions to the Church on Pentecost //// by Confession, Water Baptism, and then receipt of H.S.] … and other cases [like Paul’s and Cornelius], where faith/confession and receipt of H.S. preceeded Water Baptism.
Nevertheless, it is ALWAYS FAITH & CONFESSION that comes first. This is where the Sinner’s Prayer gains its Power & Authority. And, why the Bible teaches that ‘prayer of contrition’ is essential to pleasing God.
IMO, the Protestant’s ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ = Catholic’s ‘Prayer of Contrition/Confession’
Am I wrong ?
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FrJohnB
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Not at all??? Come on. Apparently you do not read scripture. Peter did have a mother in law. See Luke 4:38-39 Matthew 8:14-15 and Mark 1:30 How can you have a wife’s mother or mother in law if you are not married? **Are you a Catholic now denying the accuracy of scripture? **
Married clergy was rejected because their titles (bishop or cardinal) were handed down to the son who had no more calling than the man in the moon. To stop the abuse marriage in the clergy stopped.
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Padrej
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I might add that because many women were not listed in scripture does not make them any less important.
But to what Fr John said above AMEN
:clapping::bowdown:
I would personally love to hear the answer to the accuracy of scripture question.
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crazzeto
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If you’re talking about it in regards to the OP, then in protestant eyes no… The sinners prayer supplants confession and even baptism (which is only done as a formality). This is the problem with it. There’s too much focus on what God did for the good thief. This isn’t to say you can’t be saved by calling on the Lord in a similar manner, after all we are saved by Grace alone. But this shouldn’t be made into a central theology, it certainly isn’t the ordenary means of salvation as most of my friends in the protestant bible belt seem to think.
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Anna_Scott
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brb3,
The elements of the Sinner’s Prayer can be found in the liturgy of Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and other Churches as well.
The issues surrounding the Sinner’s Prayer have more to do with the theology behind the prayer. This has been stated by different people on this thread. Many Protestants believe praying such a prayer grants immediate salvation and eternal security of salvation. Emphasis is placed on a moment of salvation rather than a path of salvation.
For the Southern Baptist, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are purely symbolic, imparting no graces whatsoever. SB’s do not believe in Sacraments and will not accept a Baptism performed in a Sacramental Church. Salvation rests solely on the Sinner’s Prayer and what they believe occurs during and as a result of the prayer. This has been discussed throughout this thread.
Guess I will have to stop at the Adoration Chapel on my way home.
Anna
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crazzeto
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Nothing like an hour with the Lord to recharge the old batteries Anna
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Anna_Scott
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Can’t argue with that.Nothing like an hour with the Lord to recharge the old batteries Anna
Anna
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brb3
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Sinner’s prayer is the ULTIMATE confession. That first confession — that brings about one’s justification in Christ. And yes, for most Protestants, it is ‘central’ to their theology. It marks their spiritual beginning / rebirth into Christ, and adoption by God.
If this isn’t central to ones theology … what would be ?
Finally, , it isn’t ‘ordinary’, it’s extrodinary, — and was Normative in the primitive Catholic Church.
Protestants have their private ‘confessional’ … sins confessed directly to Jesus [just as David did]. And, before the church body, they have their public confessional booth. Referred to as 'Dedication or Rededication of Life to Christ". They come forward before the church body, and confess to their pastor of their need/desire to receive Christ … or to be restored to their ‘original’ initial faith & service to Christ.
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brb3
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Exactly ! The Jesus Prayer. We are more similar than many think.
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sholland98
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Dear Anna,
What a great question. As a true seeker, in my fifties, here is what happened to me. One day I dropped to my knees and prayed to God in the name of Jesus: If you are real and truth I surrender my life to you and invite you into into my heart. With that simple prayer my life was dramatically changed and it happened quickly and miraculously. It has been fifteen or so years since and I will profess that I am still a sinner but, I know that I know, that I know, that I am a child of God, forgiven, loved by my Heavenly Father and heaven bound. So, I would respond to your question with this answer - You want to be saved? With emphasis on the want, our God is faithful. He says ask and makes the promise - you WILL receive. He didn’t make it difficult and you know what? You don’t have to be Catholic, Baptist, Church of anything. Just be hungry and sincere and our God will direct your path with an assurance that you know is real and no one can take it from you. Believe and stay in His word daily. Blessings to you.
What a great question. As a true seeker, in my fifties, here is what happened to me. One day I dropped to my knees and prayed to God in the name of Jesus: If you are real and truth I surrender my life to you and invite you into into my heart. With that simple prayer my life was dramatically changed and it happened quickly and miraculously. It has been fifteen or so years since and I will profess that I am still a sinner but, I know that I know, that I know, that I am a child of God, forgiven, loved by my Heavenly Father and heaven bound. So, I would respond to your question with this answer - You want to be saved? With emphasis on the want, our God is faithful. He says ask and makes the promise - you WILL receive. He didn’t make it difficult and you know what? You don’t have to be Catholic, Baptist, Church of anything. Just be hungry and sincere and our God will direct your path with an assurance that you know is real and no one can take it from you. Believe and stay in His word daily. Blessings to you.
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crazzeto
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@brb3,
how many times have you been to confession in your life? Do you honestly beleive in any such thing as a once for all confession with out ever having any need of ever confessing again?
how many times have you been to confession in your life? Do you honestly beleive in any such thing as a once for all confession with out ever having any need of ever confessing again?
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crazzeto
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OK, there are some points that need to be addressed here brb3… Now I can understand some of the attraction of what you’re posting about here, it’s what gets pews full in protistant churches. Just say a sinners prayer, if you ever feel the need to confess something just keep it between you and Jesus… Hey that sounds way easier than what we Catholics do doesn’t it? What’s wrong with it? Isn’t want Protistants are doing perfectly valid? (of course by “protistants” in this post I mean specifically evangelical theology).
Well there is a problem isn’t there, there’s a reason why we Catholics don’t believe this is normative, because it’s not. Christ gave his Apostles the authority to forgive sins, why would he do this? If his expectation was for true beleivers to confess privately in their prayers just like King David? Heck, even in the old testament God instructed the Israelites to go to the Levite priests about their sins, and tell them about it, and then work out a sin offering? Sounds sort of like a bloody version of confession doesn’t it?
I’m not sure where you are on your faith journey, but in all Charity please allow me to suggest that you might need some faith direction if you are able to obtain any form of such services at your parish. It feels like you’re getting a little lost here, I’d hate to see you go too far and get into real trouble.
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brb3
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I try to make confession twice daily. Always early AM, and often for PM vespers. The Sinner’s prayer, the Jesus Prayer, ones own Personal prayer [as did David], a prayer of David’s from Psalms, our Lord’s prayer … all are efficacious and advised for us by our great saints in heaven. St. Teresa of Avila teaches a Catholic what is needful for us.
Then again, my church asks for a yearly confession … which is way too long to go w/o contrite repentance. Catholics need to return to obligatory weekly confession AT MINIMUM [which was common tradition til a generation ago], and daily confession as taught by St. Teresa 500 years ago, and the Apostles 2000 years ago.
Its hard to convince a Protestant you we the true Church when they are in the confessional more often than we …
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brb3
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Absolutely, the Sinner’s prayer or Jesus Prayer is Bedrock/Ground Zero Soteriology. Catholics need to assimilate these prayers into their daily devotions.
Christianity is both public and private, 24-7 discipleship. This was King David’s Soteriology, his religious routine. His Psalms are THE most important book in the OT scriptures. Catholics used to be expected to memorize them. What a ways we have fallen from grace … :sad_yes:
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Padrej
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Where do you get that “Protestants have their private confessional” where sins are only confessed directly to the Lord? The more liturgical churches have private confession too. Anglicans and Episcopalians have private confession, and do you now label them Catholic? Lutherans Methodists and Presbyterians all have access to their ministers as means of private confession also. "The Protestants have… " line is very broad and uninformed to say the least.
As to the public confession; don’t Catholics still do the “confitor” as a congregation before mass? The last several masses I have attended this was the case. Maybe the Catholic church you attend do not do public confession before mass?
You are obviously also misinformed as to what re-dedication to Christ is. It is quite simply where a person has fallen away from the church and comes back and now re-dedicates their life, this can be done publicly or privately not as part of the “public confession booth” as you imply. To dedicate one’s self is simply another word for committing their life to Christ and the church. When you see persons coming forth to pray at say a revival service where a call for re-dedication is used, the people coming forth have been preached a sermon of conviction the where they are is not correct and they need to pray for God’s forgiveness to get back on the right track.
While it is partially true that the altar call is used for salvation purposes as well, I feel you need to be more informed on what Protestants are and do rather than painting all with such a broad brush.
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FrJohnB
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With all due respect, are you that bad of a sinner that you NEED to confess that often?I try to make confession twice daily. Always early AM, and often for PM vespers. The Sinner’s prayer, the Jesus Prayer, ones own Personal prayer [as did David], a prayer of David’s from Psalms, our Lord’s prayer … all are efficacious and advised for us by our great saints in heaven. St. Teresa of Avila teaches a Catholic what is needful for us.
Then again, my church asks for a yearly confession … which is way too long to go w/o contrite repentance. Catholics need to return to obligatory weekly confession AT MINIMUM [which was common tradition til a generation ago], and daily confession as taught by St. Teresa 500 years ago, and the Apostles 2000 years ago.
Its hard to convince a Protestant you we the true Church when they are in the confessional more often than we …
What could you need confession of between evening when you went home and sleeping then going to the Church?
I do know that we do sin every day, and I agree with you that the Catholic church needs to have obligatory confession. Sadly as we do a public confession prior to mass many have felt this covers this need.
I think you need to explain the apostles having daily confession from a Biblical standpoint for the benefit of the Protestants (and others) on this thread; scripture and verse please? I would be curious where you get that also.
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Anna_Scott
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brb3,
I have to agree with Padrej. You are making some sweeping judgments about Protestants having their private ‘confessionals.’
I grew up in Baptist Churches, and I understand the emphasis placed on the Sinner’s Prayer. As has been stated many times on this thread by a number of people; the issue with the Sinner’s Prayer lies in the theology attached to it. I know the OSAS mindset very well, having spent most of my life in Baptist Churches. Very few people on this thread have denied the value of such a prayer. It is the OSAS doctrine associated with the Sinner’s Prayer that is the problem.
I am new to the Episcopal Church, so the idea of confessing one’s sins to a Priest is very new to me. At first, I thought I would not go to confession. I have not yet been confirmed in the Episcopal Church. During Holy Week, I prayed about the “confession” issue and decided to go. I didn’t really know what to expect. Sadly, most of what I knew about confession came from movies I’ve seen. I have to smile at this point; because I remember thinking, “What do I say to the Priest? Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been 55 years since my last confession?”
The Priest was actually very kind and knew this was my first confession. I am still amazed by the experience and the outcome. I am writing under a pen name, here. So, I will say that one of the principle confessions was the fact that I had not forgiven my former husband for all the lies, deceit, trauma, and fear he brought into my life. I have prayed many times for the Lord to help me forgive him. Yet, those feelings of hurt and resentment surfaced again and again. Evan after years, I have been haunted by the memories of that marriage. I confessed this sin to the Priest and asked that God help me to forgive my former husband-I asked that I forgive, as God has forgiven me.
Just a few days ago, I realized all those feelings of resentment were gone. Somehow the confession and Absolution brought peace to my heart. I finally let go of the past. This is so powerful, and I fail to do the experience justice with my words. For this former Baptist, who never dreamed of one day confessing to a Priest, I am humbled and amazed by the experience.
So, I ask you not to make general assumptions about the belief and practices of non-Catholic Christians. We are not all the same.
In Christ,
Anna
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crazzeto
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Jesus Prayer is something completely different than the Sinners Prayer, at least certianly the ancient one I’m thinking of is. But a single prayer isn’t the bedrock of the faith, Christ the Lord is and that transends any single prayer. At least now I’m confident you’re not walking down a bad path (I have to agree with Father, what are you doing going to confession that often?). But you are certainly not understanding what the sinners prayer is in context of the OP which is percisly the context you explicitly said you were addressing. Father John B and Padrej both made valid points about the profession of faith in general, and liken it to the sinners prayer however while they made great points they weren’t directly addressing the OP as you said you were going to.
In context, the sinners prayer is a tradition of man designed to give believers an ultimatly false reassurance of their salvation. It’s designed specifically to make them think not even taking a gun to a mans head, pulling the trigger, and remaining unrepentant could send you to hell. OK, perhaps I’m being a little flipant here, I think these denoms have various ways of explaining why this person was going to hell, most would say he didn’t really believe probably. But in some way, it is infact percisly this that they try to sell. “If you were to die today, do you have aboslute assurance that you would go to Heaven”? That’s the question, no honest Christian should say yes to this… But many honest ones do, because they’ve been lead astray.
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Padrej
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The first time I read your last paragraph I got upset, then I came back and re-read it and by golly you are correct. I have just never heart it put so bluntly. Sadly many of the revivalist mentality as I like to call them sell exactly what you speak of, that “assurance” but fail to say you have to change after the confession/profession of your faith in Christ. In short it becomes a get them to the altar and get them saved and see how many I have brought into the kingdom mentality with that type of preacher. If anything this thread has done it has opened my eyes even more as a Protestant to the need for the follow up after the profession of faith. Thank you for being blunt. And thank you to Anna for starting this.
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