Protestants: Tackle This

[Dokimas]

Posted by ProdicalSon quoted from Ignatius

Ch[SIGN]apter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(55) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(56) Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(57) [/SIGN]​

I believe that where Jesus is it His church, the univeral church. Did Ignatius use CC or cc?

 

[Dokimas]

Act 8:30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?
Act 8:31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The authority of the Church, Philip, preached Jesus to him and he believed!

The scripture doesn’t say the eunuch knew who God was. The scripture shows Philip asking if he UNDERSTANDEST what he was reading? If he couldn’t understand, he couldn’t interpret…

You have failed to answer any questions that I have politely asked of you, some repeatedly.

Please discontinue the condescending tone in your posts.

A person not having the Holy Spirit can’t understand. Even with the Holy Spirit, God has given teachers and preachers to aid our growth.

 

[Dokimas]

New Testament example against private interpretation, that shows the scriptures were not enough authority.

Act 8:27 And rising up, he went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore.
Act 8:28 And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?
Act 8:31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter: and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth.
Act 8:33 In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth?
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? Of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip, opening his mouth and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said: See, here is water: What doth hinder me from being baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.

The eunuch had the scriptures only. Yet, he could not understand them until the authority, Philip, opened his mouth and preached Jesus to him.

A person without the Holy Spirit can’t get the correct interpretation from within. This is not a verse against private interpretation by Christians. The verse you should use is 2Pe 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,”​

BTW, just because non-catholics have an interpretation different than the CC doesn’t mean it’s a private interpretation (unless the CC is 100% accurate in its interpretation of Scripture – which I doubt).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ac 9:31 Then the churches throughout all <3650> Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.
Ac 15:22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole <3650> church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
Ro 16:23 Gaius, my host and the host of the whole <3650> church, greets you. Erastus, the treasurer of the city, greets you, and Quartus, a brother. The whole church world wide or local?
1Co 14:23 Therefore if the whole <3650> church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? The church world wide or the church of Corinth?

The Church was one, in many locations. You, yourself, said the letters and epistles were circulated among the Churches (at least I think you said that, forgive me if I’m mistaken). Even if they received individual letters, the message was the same. We’ve already agreed there are no contradictions in the Bible. There was one truth being shared among all the Churches. They didn’t have denominations then.

Many of Paul’s letters addressed differences.

**1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved may be made manifest among you.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.**

The word Church has a double usage. The Catholic Church is one worldwide Church, in many locations. I attended Church this evening.

I’m sure it’s the same with Protestants, who proclaim the Church is a body of believers. They will attend Church in the morning.

 

[Dokimas]

Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant reformation, conceded that the Bible came from the Catholic Church.

If the Bible came from the Catholics, surely they know the correct interpretation.

I’ve given you alot to read and reflect on, just add prayer. Now, I have to go to Church, my wife has to work tomorrow, so we attend the Saturday vigil. Be back soon.

The OT came from the Jews. Did they understand the interpretations about Jesus?

 

[jericho777]

Act 8:30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?
Act 8:31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The authority of the Church, Philip, preached Jesus to him and he believed!

The scripture doesn’t say the eunuch knew who God was. The scripture shows Philip asking if he UNDERSTANDEST what he was reading? If he couldn’t understand, he couldn’t interpret…

You have failed to answer any questions that I have politely asked of you, some repeatedly.

Please discontinue the condescending tone in your posts.

I have answered your questions as best as I can.

The book of Isiaih was in reference to Jesus the being the messiah. If he was from Ethiopia and had not seen or heard of Jesus how would he have known who Jesus was? He did not have a point of reference to whom Jesus was until Phillip had told him.

The scripture doesen’t say he didn’t know who God was either.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

A person without the Holy Spirit can’t get the correct interpretation from within. This is not a verse against private interpretation by Christians. The verse you should use is 2Pe 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,”​

BTW, just because non-catholics have an interpretation different than the CC doesn’t mean it’s a private interpretation (unless the CC is 100% accurate in its interpretation of Scripture – which I doubt).

It is an example of the dangers of private interpretation. If Philip had not been sent to the eunuch, he would have never understood what he was reading.

I have used 2 Peter 1:20 and it’s in my notes. Believe it or not, you haven’t seen all the scriptures I use when discussing private interpretation.

I told you, I was a convert and I didn’t convert without doing my ‘homework’. I continue my homework and as I prayed for all to open their hearts and minds to His truth, I didn’t leave myself out. I ask questions and I pray for answers. That works very well for me. Most answers come, from as little as 2 hours to as long as 2 days, but I always get my answer. Sometimes the answer hits me when I least expect it. Something on tv, a discussion with friends, happen on it in scriptures, or in the Church, the answer is given to me.

The questions I put forth on these forums are sincere, but no one answers them. The answers supporting my view have been made available to me, to the glory of God.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have answered your questions as best as I can.

Let’s cut to the chase, show me the scriptures that tell us the Bible is the only authority. Show me the scriptures that teach us to interpret scriptures for ourselves. I have requested these scriptures repeatedly. if they don’t exist, they are man made beliefs that come from outside the Bible…

I have provided many, many, scriptures with point by point explanations supporting my view.

The book of Isiaih was in reference to Jesus the being the messiah. If he was from Ethiopia and had not seen or heard of Jesus how would he have known who Jesus was? He did not have a point of reference to whom Jesus was until Phillip had told him.

The scripture doesen’t say he didn’t know who God was either.

The scriptures say he didn’t know if it was Isaiah or another man.

Philip had to preach Jesus to him so he knew who it was. If all he had was a Bible, and he had scriptures, he would not have known the truth. That’s the point. We cannot fly over a country of non-believers and drop Bibles to them and expect them to know the truth, unless someone explains it to them.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Posted by ProdicalSon quoted from Ignatius

Ch[SIGN]apter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(55) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(56) Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(57) [/SIGN]​

I believe that where Jesus is it His church, the univeral church. Did Ignatius use CC or cc?

It was copied and pasted…from a Protestant website. I didn’t change anything, with the exception of bolding and underlining. You can find it in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans.

If you’d like to read writings of the early Church fathers, please visit this link, it’s where I copied and pasted from. :takeoff:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The OT came from the Jews. Did they understand the interpretations about Jesus?

Some did, some rejected it.

Let me ask you a question that just came to mind, why did Christ say the words in the verse below?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? That is, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[Dokimas]

It is an example of the dangers of private interpretation. If Philip had not been sent to the eunuch, he would have never understood what he was reading.

I have used 2 Peter 1:20 and it’s in my notes. Believe it or not, you haven’t seen all the scriptures I use when discussing private interpretation.

I told you, I was a convert and I didn’t convert without doing my ‘homework’. I continue my homework and as I prayed for all to open their hearts and minds to His truth, I didn’t leave myself out. I ask questions and I pray for answers. That works very well for me. Most answers come, from as little as 2 hours to as long as 2 days, but I always get my answer. Sometimes the answer hits me when I least expect it. Something on tv, a discussion with friends, happen on it in scriptures, or in the Church, the answer is given to me.

The questions I put forth on these forums are sincere, but no one answers them. The answers supporting my view have been made available to me, to the glory of God.

I respect your answers even though I disagree with many of them on the topics we disagree on.​

What questions have you asked that haven’t been answered.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I respect your answers even though I disagree with many of them on the topics we disagree on.

Ok, I’ll be honest here, I would be happy to see anyone decide to join the Catholic Church, but that’s not why I put up the arguments I do. You see, it bothers me for some people to say, Catholic beliefs are not Biblical. I feel I have made the case for the topics discussed in this thread to show these beliefs are Biblical, even if you don’t agree with the interpretation. ​

What questions have you asked that haven’t been answered.

Where are the scriptures stating the Bible is the only authority?

Where are the scriptures teaching us to interpret scriptures for ourselves?I saw where you said, we have to have an authority teach us. I believe you said ‘teachers and preachers’. Let me give you a bit of advice on that, don’t let them laugh you off without giving you an answer and then examine it and question it as you feel led too.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Some did, some rejected it.

Let me ask you a question that just came to mind, why did Christ say the words in the verse below?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? That is, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I know it’s going off topic just a bit, but I’d like to see your response to the question quoted above. (This shouldn’t lead us to a debate, it was an ‘oh wow’ moment for me when I realized it. Your question about the Jews made me think of it.)

 

[Dokimas]

I know it’s going off topic just a bit, but I’d like to see your response to the question quoted above. (This shouldn’t lead us to a debate, it was an ‘oh wow’ moment for me when I realized it. Your question about the Jews made me think of it.)

It is a fulfillment of an OT verse.​

Also, Jesus suffered as a Human. When He was taking our sin God looked away because He can’t look upon sin. Paul said as recorded in … 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

 

[jericho777]

Let’s cut to the chase, show me the scriptures that tell us the Bible is the only authority. Show me the scriptures that teach us to interpret scriptures for ourselves. I have requested these scriptures repeatedly. if they don’t exist, they are man made beliefs that come from outside the Bible…

I have provided many, many, scriptures with point by point explanations supporting my view.

The scriptures say he didn’t know if it was Isaiah or another man.

Philip had to preach Jesus to him so he knew who it was. If all he had was a Bible, and he had scriptures, he would not have known the truth. That’s the point. We cannot fly over a country of non-believers and drop Bibles to them and expect them to know the truth, unless someone explains it to them.

These questions are red herrings like where is the word trinity in the bible. I believe you belive those scriptures say those things but I don’t necessarily believe it. I was a cradle catholic 28 years before I finally left because the bible taught different things than the church did.

Like I said he was from Ethiopia how would he know who Jesus or Isiaih or any other Jewish person was. He had no cultural references to go by. V 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
Phillip did not just tell him who Jesus was but used scripture as his authority not his own or any organization.

Over 100 times in the NT is scripture quoted as the authority or defination for what happened.

 

[Dokimas]

Ok, I’ll be honest here, I would be happy to see anyone decide to join the Catholic Church, but that’s not why I put up the arguments I do. You see, it bothers me for some people to say, Catholic beliefs are not Biblical. I feel I have made the case for the topics discussed in this thread to show these beliefs are Biblical, even if you don’t agree with the interpretation. ​

Can you be honest and say that you think that my beliefs that disagree with the CC are not Biblical?

Where are the scriptures stating the Bible is the only authority? I doubt that there is any verse so direct. BTW, I have not problem with traditions that compliment the Bible but I do have problems with those that seem to contradict the Bible or that ‘shine a spotlight’ on anything other than Jesus/God.

Where are the scriptures teaching us to interpret scriptures for ourselves? ** I have quoted 2 Peter 1 that tells us the Bible is to be privately understood**.I saw where you said, we have to have an authority teach us. I believe you said ‘teachers and preachers’. Let me give you a bit of advice on that, don’t let them laugh you off without giving you an answer and then examine it and question it as you feel led too. Don’t worry; I study for myself; what I believe comes from listening and studying - at this point in my life it comes from mostly study.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It is a fulfillment of an OT verse.​

Also, Jesus suffered as a Human. When He was taking our sin God looked away because He can’t look upon sin. Paul said as recorded in … 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

The Jews knew Old Testament scriptures. They were read to them at the Temple and synagogues.

2Ti 3:15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures which can instruct thee to salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Christ was identifying Himself, through the prophesies, one last time. When He spoke those words, you know the Jews thought of Psalms 22.

**Psa 22:1 To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
Psa 22:3 Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 “He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
Psa 22:9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.
Psa 22:10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
Psa 22:13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast;
Psa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet–
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.
Psa 22:19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
Psa 22:21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!
Psa 22:22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
Psa 22:24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
Psa 22:25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
Psa 22:26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
Psa 22:28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
Psa 22:29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
Psa 22:30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
Psa 22:31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it. **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

These questions are red herrings like where is the word trinity in the bible. I believe you belive those scriptures say those things but I don’t necessarily believe it. I was a cradle catholic 28 years before I finally left because the bible taught different things than the church did.

As for the Trinity, it is more than implied by several scriptures and is not the same thing. Where does scriptures state that the Bible, or scriptures, are the only authority? Where do scriptures teach us that we should privately interpret scriptures? If it’s not in the Bible, either specifically or implied, then it has to be a man-made tradition.

I have provided scriptures that state the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church. I have provided scriptures that tell of scriptures being wrested, scriptures telling us to hold to the traditions, whether by word or epistle, and the list is too big to go on, but it seems you don’t believe me or those scriptures.

Like I said he was from Ethiopia how would he know who Jesus or Isiaih or any other Jewish person was. He had no cultural references to go by. V 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
Phillip did not just tell him who Jesus was but used scripture as his authority not his own or any organization.

We will not agree here and it maybe no more than semantics. The scriptures say ‘understand’, one has to interpret to understand. The other point is, if the Bible were the only authority, then nothing else would be needed.

Philip was an Apostle, appointed as such by Christ. That is an authority, from the Church. That is scriptural.

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

Over 100 times in the NT is scripture quoted as the authority or defination for what happened.

'Over 100 ties in the NT is scripture quoted as the authority or definition for what happened."

Seems, I’ve been told that scriptures are the only authority. Are you changing that statement now? Why didn’t you bother to produce some, so we could discuss them?

 

[Christ_Imitator]

James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”)
–We need to do “good works” as well as have faith.

This is what I believe that to mean:
When we have truely accepted Christ as our savior, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. When that happens, I believe people have a desire to do good things for other people; to show the love of Christ to others. I don’t believe that we are required to do “good works”, because the Bible tells us that we are saved by faith NOT by works. We should be willing to do things for the Lord, but if we do not, I don’t believe that we’re not saved.
The fruits of the spirit are another thing that show that we have become a Christian, by those actions, people are able to see a change.
Now, some people seem to get the idea that they are always going to be more happy, kind, patient, and have more self control once they become a Christian; but that is false.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”)
–We need to do “good works” as well as have faith.

This is what I believe that to mean:
When we have truely accepted Christ as our savior, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. When that happens, I believe people have a desire to do good things for other people; to show the love of Christ to others. I don’t believe that we are required to do “good works”, because the Bible tells us that we are saved by faith NOT by works. We should be willing to do things for the Lord, but if we do not, I don’t believe that we’re not saved.
The fruits of the spirit are another thing that show that we have become a Christian, by those actions, people are able to see a change.
Now, some people seem to get the idea that they are always going to be more happy, kind, patient, and have more self control once they become a Christian; but that is false.

A whole new discussion. Did you post on the wrong thread by chance?

Edited to add: Never mind, I see you’re posting to the first post of this thread. It has somewhat ‘evolved’ since then.