Protestants: Tackle This

[Jean_1958]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.

In fact, she came back to work that Monday and told me that after she showed her Pastor those 2 verses, he looked directly at her and told her, “Yeah, they’re there, but they don’t mean anything.” He also added not to worry about them so she didn’t. She was actually quite relieved to know those Biblical verses did not mean anything.

As a Catholic and like most, if not all, I take the whole Bible into consideration.

It seems that if something in the Bible does not jive with Protestant beliefs it is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right.

As a Catholic, it bothers me and offends me even that it always comes down to is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right. In some ways, it is even insulting to me.

Why is it Catholics are always wrong and Protestants are always right? Why can’t Catholics ever be right? Or, would that be too threatening to most Protestants? I mean… if Catholics are right it somehow shatters all of what they believe in, righht?

I am sorry, but either the entire Bible means something or it means nothing. You cannot say 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 means something and is important YET disregard James 2:20 or Revelation 20:12 like it does not exist.

 

[O.S.Luke]

This is a very generalizing statement. Not all Protestants think this way. I am sure you have found the statements of some Protestants offensive. But I find this post offensive too - you have painted Protestants with a very wide brush.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.

In fact, she came back to work that Monday and told me that after she showed her Pastor those 2 verses, he looked directly at her and told her, “Yeah, they’re there, but they don’t mean anything.” He also added not to worry about them so she didn’t. She was actually quite relieved to know those Biblical verses did not mean anything.

As a Catholic and like most, if not all, I take the whole Bible into consideration.

It seems that if something in the Bible does not jive with Protestant beliefs it is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right.

As a Catholic, it bothers me and offends me even that it always comes down to is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right. In some ways, it is even insulting to me.

Why is it Catholics are always wrong and Protestants are always right? Why can’t Catholics ever be right? Or, would that be too threatening to most Protestants? I mean… if Catholics are right it somehow shatters all of what they believe in, righht?

I am sorry, but either the entire Bible means something or it means nothing. You cannot say 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 means something and is important YET disregard James 2:20 or Revelation 20:12 like it does not exist.

YOU ARE RIGHT!

 

[Jean_1958]

This is a very generalizing statement. Not all Protestants think this way. I am sure you have found the statements of some Protestants offensive. But I find this post offensive too - you have painted Protestants with a very wide brush.

I am sorry you find it offensive. I was being general because in MY experiences I have found MOST Protestants to be that way. I have not really found one who was not that way. They most likely exist, I just have yet to find one.

You have to understand, I am asking in the way I am based on MY experiences with them.

Besides, MANY Protestants make generalizing statements about Catholics and, as you said, “paint a very wide brush” about us. Does that mean I am in the right for doing so about them? Maybe not. But am still asking in a way that fits MY experiences with them.

As I said, I still have yet to really come across a Protestant that is opposite of the above. So from my experiences and perspective, they kind of all seem that way.

 

[BrianH]

Several things.
There are lots of Protestant books, websites and so forth that deal with every verse you can imagine. So what is this thread really about, a Protestant who it appears has never actually read James and Revelation and a pastor who it appears might…possibly…be a moron?

 

[Serving_Him]

From personal experience I have found that a modern day “Protestant” does not hold to any set doctrine. There are many differences among “Protestant” churches and none can truly be called so. Thats for another day though.

Why can’t Catholics be right? Well thats a pretty vague question. I agree with Catholics on many issues and on many I disagree. I don’t think its right to toss all Catholics into one bucket and say that they ALL believe the same thing and assume that ALL Protestants do either.

 

[Jean_1958]

There are lots of Protestant books, websites and so forth that deal with every verse you can imagine. So what is this thread really about, a Protestant who it appears has never actually read James and Revelation and a pastor who it appears might…possibly…be a moron?

It is about how some verses to Protestants seem to be there (In the the Bible) but not mean anything or how some verses are there but simply misinterpreted by us Catholics and why that is and HAS to be the case.

From personal experience I have found that a modern day “Protestant” does not hold to any set doctrine. There are many differences among “Protestant” churches and none can truly be called so. Thats for another day though.

I understand that.

I don’t think its right to toss all Catholics into one bucket and say that they ALL believe the same thing and assume that ALL Protestants do either.

And I do not think I did. As I said in a post above, I am sure there are Protestants out there who are OPPOSITE of what I posted, I just have not really met one yet.

That said, it still does not change the fact that to MOST Protestants it is there (in the Bible) and just does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right. It’s ALWAYS that way. It’s like we Catholics can never interpret it right.

And as I staed a few times already, how can something in the Bible be there to a Protestant, but mean absolutely NOTHING at all? If the Bible is so important to them, then it all means something or it all means nothing.

 

[larkin31]

Several things.
There are lots of Protestant books, websites and so forth that deal with every verse you can imagine. So what is this thread really about, a Protestant who it appears has never actually read James and Revelation and a pastor who it appears might…possibly…be a moron?

Indeed.

I grew up in a Protestant minister’s household and these passages/ideas were discussed even in the home, as well as in the church.

As for believing that the “other” group has it wrong: well, you can’t be surprised by that. Catholic/Protestant disagreements over some important ideas go back to the beginning of the latter movement.

 

[shawn38]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.

As a former Catholic I use to argue the same point. However everything has to be put into context. Yes we are called to bare fruit. As part of your belief in Christ, you do so, each according to their abilities. The best example is the parable of the talons. It could not be any clearer. This is exactly what Ephesians is expressing. We are saved by the grace of God like the thief on the Cross who had not performed any works outside his acceptance of Christ. If someone wasn’t to bare fruit, did they truly accept Christ. The fruit is the result of our acceptance. We will be rewarded according to our good works.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

• 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
• 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
• 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
• 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
• 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. * 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
*
If works were necessary, is it a free gift? No!*

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is salvation a gift if you have to work for it? No! Your works will be judged and you will be rewarded accordingly.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

This is a very generalizing statement. Not all Protestants think this way. I am sure you have found the statements of some Protestants offensive. But I find this post offensive too - you have painted Protestants with a very wide brush.

Indeed, most knowledgeable Protestants are aware of those passages in James, Revelation, and even the gospels, and they’re aware that they represent a living faith. Only the extreme crowd of solo scriptura or solo fide (and no those aren’t typos) believe those passages “don’t mean anything.”

 

[Lutheranteach]

I believe if you have real faith and believe, you will do good works. You cannot not do good works if that is the case. However, you can do good works without faith

 

[Darron_Steele]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.

In fact, she came back to work that Monday and told me that after she showed her Pastor those 2 verses, he looked directly at her and told her, “Yeah, they’re there, but they don’t mean anything.” He also added not to worry about them so she didn’t. She was actually quite relieved to know those Biblical verses did not mean anything.

As a Catholic and like most, if not all, I take the whole Bible into consideration.

It seems that if something in the Bible does not jive with Protestant beliefs it is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right.

As a Catholic, it bothers me and offends me even that it always comes down to is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right. In some ways, it is even insulting to me.

Why is it Catholics are always wrong and Protestants are always right? Why can’t Catholics ever be right? Or, would that be too threatening to most Protestants? I mean… if Catholics are right it somehow shatters all of what they believe in, righht?

I am sorry, but either the entire Bible means something or it means nothing. You cannot say 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 means something and is important YET disregard James 2:20 or Revelation 20:12 like it does not exist.

Tackle what?

It looks to me like you are griping about some experience someone else had.

If I have understood you, and you have something you want answers to, please clarify.

If this happened as narrated – no misunderstandings – I am sorry that
a) your co-worker experienced this,
b) it upset you,
c) the pastor is someone who should not have the role he has.

As for your other complaints, yes: it is possible for individual Catholic Christians to know the Bible better than other Christian individuals. If a Catholic Christian and a Christian who is not Catholic disagree, it should not be assumed the Catholic is wrong.

I tend not to care too much what idiots think of me if they cannot affect me. If a person
a) knows so little about the Bible, and
b) yet thinks he has any business pastoring a congregation
then he is obviously an idiot. Unless somehow his activities can directly affect you – which I doubt – then his opinion is not worth worrying about.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.

In fact, she came back to work that Monday and told me that after she showed her Pastor those 2 verses, he looked directly at her and told her, “Yeah, they’re there, but they don’t mean anything.” .

1. Thanks for this bit of Sola Scriptura! Catholics do use this praxis at times, even if The Catholic Church opposes it.
2. IF the Baptist minister said that, then I disagree (Protestant ministers do regard themselves as accountable and do not demand that we accept with docility "whatever our teachers teach in its various forms).
3. Yes, Virginia, the verses are “there.” In fact, not just there - this is a very basic biblical teaching. The Law applies to Christians, too, we are also to do the will of God! And yes, that includes The Great Commandment: Love as I first have loved you. And yes, “judgement” is based on what is done.
4. Where I think this person was confused is that the teaching of Sola Gratia/ Solus Christus/ Sola Fide/ Soli Deo Gloria concerns JUSTIFICATION. It says that we are justified because of the grace of God via the works of Jesus who is THE (and the only) Savior, and this is applied to us via faith in Christ. Now, the aspect of faith that is important in this initial justification is the object of faith - Christ, for Christ is THE and THE ONLY Savior. I’m not the Savior (in whole or in part); if my works were what brought about this justification then Jesus was in vain and His life a waste. But, justification is not the “end all” of Christianity! We are His children - and we are to act like it. And we are not the Lord, He is - and His will and law still apply to us. Faith - if it is just a cognative assent, just a chant of syllibles, is dead. Faith is a lively, active, doing thing! Faith is a verb! Faith that is void of works, of love, of obedience is not faith at all.

As a Catholic, it bothers me and offends me even that it always comes down to is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right. In some ways, it is even insulting to me.

Welcome to our world! No matter what a Protestant says, it is jsut disregarded because who died and made US infallible, incapable of error, unaccountable - the sole authority, sole interpreter, sole arbiter?? NO, we are told by The Catholic Church. Christ died and make ME all that! If you don’t agree with it, you MUST be wrong because it MUST be right - and so therefore, well, you gotta be wrong.

Why is it Catholics are always wrong and Protestants are always right?

From the standpoint of The Catholic Church, it’s the other way around. Read The Catholic Catechism # 87.

Why can’t Catholics ever be right?

From MY standpoint, The Catholic Church is almost always right. I agree with it at least 95% of the time. When I told my priest of my 3 years of very extensive study of the Catechism (etc.) under my Catholic teachers, and that I felt very affimative and in agreement with 95% of those 2,875 points, he laughed and said, “Josiah - that’s a whole lot better than most Catholics; probably than a whole lot of Catholic priests!” I don’t know about the priests part, but I suspect he was right on the other count.

As a Protestant, I firmly and passionately believe that The Catholic Church is a sound, valid and good organization. I overwhemingly agree with it (I’d guess 95% of the time) and regard nothing it teaches as heretical in the sense of being contrary to Scripture and/or Tradition. I regard ALL in her to be my FULL, UNseparated, EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ - in every and all senses. I regard her ministers, ministries and Sacraments as all valid. I pray daily for God’s richest blessings to her, her ministers and ministries, and her Holy Father. Now, I’ve told daily here that I’m hateful, a hate monger, anti-Catholic, etc. - but frankly, I think I am far more affirming of The Catholic Church than nearly all the Catholic here are of my denomination.

That The Catholic Church CAN (and very often DOES) “get it right” is not at all an issue. The issue is: is it infallible, unaccountable, exempt from norming (the quest to determine correctness)? Must accountablity and examination be circumvented by itself alone and replaced by the demand of itself alone that we just accept whatever it says “with docility?”

I think that President Obama CAN get things right. (Strong pro-life social conservative Republican here), he often does. Why, during the campaign, he said there are 50 States in the USA! Correctamundo! Does the fact that he’s a valid man, the legit president, with GREAT authority, who is right a lot of the time mean that ERGO, THEREFORE, he is infallible? Unaccountable? Incapable of error? Exempt from examination and norming? When he speaks, Jesus speaks? Follow me?

See, your friend is WELCOMED (even encouraged) to regard his/her teacher and denomination as accountable. Correction even is permitted, becuase there is no claim of self alone for self alone of infallibility/unaccountablity - norming is embraced rather than forbidden.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[Jean_1958]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See, many Protestants that I meet give me that same Bible verse you just gave me, Romans 6:23. But James 2:20 makes it QUITE CLEAR that faith WITHOUT works is dead.

Look at it like this:

Faith — Works (Deeds) = Dead Faith

It dos not get anymore clearer than that.

I do not buy the argument that if you have faith and NO works God will somehow overlook your lack of works.

It is one thing to say you are a Christian and another to actually live it.

I believe if you have real faith and believe, you will do good works. You cannot not do good works if that is the case. However, you can do good works without faith

That’s exactly HOW a former co-worker of mine explained it to me once. However, if you explain it like that, then you open up a whole new door because as you said, those with no faith or even a different faith do good works. So, that begs the question: Do the people with no faith or of a different faith then go to Hell?..

See, I believe you do not understand where someone truly is at the moment of death. For all we know, they could be making right with God when they die and meet their maker to the point he or she actually is saved.

That said, saved or not saved a person SHOULD be doing good works simply because these things are the right thing to do in life. We must show compassion and empathy for our fellow man and God’s creatures.

 

[Jehoshua]

A protestant pastor i know explained them away by saying that through genuine faith in Christ good works result.

Yet I find this an inadequate response because of protestants i know there are many who are faithful people, but whose works are somewhat lacking. And the bible says “faith without works is dead” why would it say this if it was impossible to have genuine faith without good works resulting? You can be totally faithful to Christ and then sit at home praying or reading the bible. Its sound like a catch-all dismissal of a problem to me.

 

[IowaJay]

I see you are from North Chicago. Go visit Pastor Frank Senn and the good folks at Immanuel Lutheran in Evanston and your experience and perspectives on “protestants” will change.

ilcevanston.org/index.php?page=pastor

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Indeed.

I grew up in a Protestant minister’s household and these passages/ideas were discussed even in the home, as well as in the church.

As for believing that the “other” group has it wrong: well, you can’t be surprised by that. Catholic/Protestant disagreements over some important ideas go back to the beginning of the latter movement.

I suspect much farther back considering you are not aloud to disagree and remain in the church and THE church held THE ONLY set of keys to Heaven.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I am sorry you find it offensive. I was being general because in MY experiences I have found MOST Protestants to be that way. I have not really found one who was not that way. They most likely exist, I just have yet to find one.

You have to understand, I am asking in the way I am based on MY experiences with them.

Besides, MANY Protestants make generalizing statements about Catholics and, as you said, “paint a very wide brush” about us. Does that mean I am in the right for doing so about them? Maybe not. But am still asking in a way that fits MY experiences with them.

As I said, I still have yet to really come across a Protestant that is opposite of the above. So from my experiences and perspective, they kind of all seem that way.

Well the only Catholic I know, Knocked up my daughter out of wedlock, never attends mass, drinks , smokes, and curses (though usualy the curse word is half muted, so you know what he said, but he didnt really say it ) I have never seen him touch a Bible in the year and a half Hes lived in our home and he has not been able to hold a job for more than a few months that isnt part time for $10 per hour(hes had 5 in the time hes lived here). It was because of Him that I joined this forum He fercely defends the RCC as THE church and gets defensive about RCC dogma yet can do little to deffend his beliefs with scripture. So can you imagine what I think of Catholics??? Like protestants Catholics go from one extreme to the other some are like my son inlaw and some are devoted God loving Bible believing Christians. I knew that was true before joining this forum but it has been reinforced here. you have posted here longer than I have, If you havent seen protestants who revere Gods word you havent been looking. Take off your they must all be idiots glasses. Protestants put much less emphisis on tradition so we do try and support our doctrines on Gods word. you can not read Gods word without coming across scriptures that seem to contradict each other and one must take one verse literally and the other in some other way or “interpretation”. Naturally we come to differing conclusions thinking the other is wrong. this does not mean that we dismiss some scripture and say they dont matter. The scripture that you reference is VERY important, If it is by grace through faith that we are saved(and it is) then how important is it that we have a true and living faith? one sign we are given in this verse is that if our faith does not produce works ,it is a dead faith.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It seems to be ‘semantics’. What I mean is, Protestants say if walk with Jesus, good works will come about. That really is the same thing. It just seems to be too much for some to say we actually agree on something…

 

[graceandglory]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.

In fact, she came back to work that Monday and told me that after she showed her Pastor those 2 verses, he looked directly at her and told her, “Yeah, they’re there, but they don’t mean anything.” He also added not to worry about them so she didn’t. She was actually quite relieved to know those Biblical verses did not mean anything.

As a Catholic and like most, if not all, I take the whole Bible into consideration.

It seems that if something in the Bible does not jive with Protestant beliefs it is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right.

As a Catholic, it bothers me and offends me even that it always comes down to is either there and does not mean anything OR it is there and we Catholics just are not interpreting it right. In some ways, it is even insulting to me.

Why is it Catholics are always wrong and Protestants are always right? Why can’t Catholics ever be right? Or, would that be too threatening to most Protestants? I mean… if Catholics are right it somehow shatters all of what they believe in, righht?

I am sorry, but either the entire Bible means something or it means nothing. You cannot say 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 means something and is important YET disregard James 2:20 or Revelation 20:12 like it does not exist.

This was my experience too. And my last protestant pastor was a big time radio preacher. Just flippantly cast off certain things that I would ask him, and laugh. He laughed a lot. And then I asked the million dollar question (without knowing it was the million dollar question). How do you know who is right regarding biblical interpretation? He laughed. No answer. Just a laugh.