Protestants: Tackle This

[MyRdmrLvs]

I believe if you have real faith and believe, you will do good works. You cannot not do good works if that is the case. However, you can do good works without faith

thats an excellent point. so lack of works can prove you dont have a true faith but works does not prove that you do.

 

[graceandglory]

Well the only Catholic I know, Knocked up my daughter out of wedlock, never attends mass, drinks , smokes, and curses (though usualy the curse word is half muted, so you know what he said, but he didnt really say it ) I have never seen him touch a Bible in the year and a half Hes lived in our home and he has not been able to hold a job for more than a few months that isnt part time for $10 per hour(hes had 5 in the time hes lived here). It was because of Him that I joined this forum He fercely defends the RCC as THE church and gets defensive about RCC dogma yet can do little to deffend his beliefs with scripture. So can you imagine what I think of Catholics??? Like protestants Catholics go from one extreme to the other some are like my son inlaw and some are devoted God loving Bible believing Christians. I knew that was true before joining this forum but it has been reinforced here. you have posted here longer than I have, If you havent seen protestants who revere Gods word you havent been looking. Take off your they must all be idiots glasses. Protestants put much less emphisis on tradition so we do try and support our doctrines on Gods word. you can not read Gods word without coming across scriptures that seem to contradict each other and one must take one verse literally and the other in some other way or “interpretation”. Naturally we come to differing conclusions thinking the other is wrong. this does not mean that we dismiss some scripture and say they dont matter. The scripture that you reference is VERY important, ** If it is by grace through faith that we are saved(and it is) then how important is it that we have a true and living faith? one sign we are given in this verse is that if our faith does not produce works ,it is a dead faith**.

I am sorry MRL.
I hope you know from your time here at CAF, that not all Catholics are like that. You give a really good argument for*** “Faith without works is dead.”*** It doesn’t sound like that person was very converted.

 

[izoid]

Well the only Catholic I know, Knocked up my daughter out of wedlock, never attends mass, drinks , smokes, and curses (though usualy the curse word is half muted, so you know what he said, but he didnt really say it ) I have never seen him touch a Bible in the year and a half Hes lived in our home and he has not been able to hold a job for more than a few months that isnt part time for $10 per hour(hes had 5 in the time hes lived here). It was because of Him that I joined this forum He fercely defends the RCC as THE church and gets defensive about RCC dogma yet can do little to deffend his beliefs with scripture. So can you imagine what I think of Catholics??? Like protestants Catholics go from one extreme to the other some are like my son inlaw and some are devoted God loving Bible believing Christians. I knew that was true before joining this forum but it has been reinforced here. you have posted here longer than I have, If you havent seen protestants who revere Gods word you havent been looking. Take off your they must all be idiots glasses. Protestants put much less emphisis on tradition so we do try and support our doctrines on Gods word. you can not read Gods word without coming across scriptures that seem to contradict each other and one must take one verse literally and the other in some other way or “interpretation”. Naturally we come to differing conclusions thinking the other is wrong. this does not mean that we dismiss some scripture and say they dont matter. The scripture that you reference is VERY important, If it is by grace through faith that we are saved(and it is) then how important is it that we have a true and living faith? one sign we are given in this verse is that if our faith does not produce works ,it is a dead faith.

Is your daughter Catholic or protestant?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

1. Thanks for this bit of Sola Scriptura! Catholics do use this praxis at times, even if The Catholic Church opposes it.
2. IF the Baptist minister said that, then I disagree (Protestant ministers do regard themselves as accountable and do not demand that we accept with docility "whatever our teachers teach in its various forms).
3. Yes, Virginia, the verses are “there.” In fact, not just there - this is a very basic biblical teaching. The Law applies to Christians, too, we are also to do the will of God! And yes, that includes The Great Commandment: Love as I first have loved you. And yes, “judgement” is based on what is done.
4. Where I think this person was confused is that the teaching of Sola Gratia/ Solus Christus/ Sola Fide/ Soli Deo Gloria concerns JUSTIFICATION. It says that we are justified because of the grace of God via the works of Jesus who is THE (and the only) Savior, and this is applied to us via faith in Christ. Now, the aspect of faith that is important in this initial justification is the object of faith - Christ, for Christ is THE and THE ONLY Savior. I’m not the Savior (in whole or in part); if my works were what brought about this justification then Jesus was in vain and His life a waste. But, justification is not the “end all” of Christianity! We are His children - and we are to act like it. And we are not the Lord, He is - and His will and law still apply to us. Faith - if it is just a cognative assent, just a chant of syllibles, is dead. Faith is a lively, active, doing thing! Faith is a verb! Faith that is void of works, of love, of obedience is not faith at all.

Welcome to our world! No matter what a Protestant says, it is jsut disregarded because who died and made US infallible, incapable of error, unaccountable - the sole authority, sole interpreter, sole arbiter?? NO, we are told by The Catholic Church. Christ died and make ME all that! If you don’t agree with it, you MUST be wrong because it MUST be right - and so therefore, well, you gotta be wrong.

From the standpoint of The Catholic Church, it’s the other way around. Read The Catholic Catechism # 87.

From MY standpoint, The Catholic Church is almost always right. I agree with it at least 95% of the time. When I told my priest of my 3 years of very extensive study of the Catechism (etc.) under my Catholic teachers, and that I felt very affimative and in agreement with 95% of those 2,875 points, he laughed and said, “Josiah - that’s a whole lot better than most Catholics; probably than a whole lot of Catholic priests!” I don’t know about the priests part, but I suspect he was right on the other count.

As a Protestant, I firmly and passionately believe that The Catholic Church is a sound, valid and good organization. I overwhemingly agree with it (I’d guess 95% of the time) and regard nothing it teaches as heretical in the sense of being contrary to Scripture and/or Tradition. I regard ALL in her to be my FULL, UNseparated, EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ - in every and all senses. I regard her ministers, ministries and Sacraments as all valid. I pray daily for God’s richest blessings to her, her ministers and ministries, and her Holy Father. Now, I’ve told daily here that I’m hateful, a hate monger, anti-Catholic, etc. - but frankly, I think I am far more affirming of The Catholic Church than nearly all the Catholic here are of my denomination.

That The Catholic Church CAN (and very often DOES) “get it right” is not at all an issue. The issue is: is it infallible, unaccountable, exempt from norming (the quest to determine correctness)? Must accountablity and examination be circumvented by itself alone and replaced by the demand of itself alone that we just accept whatever it says “with docility?”

I think that President Obama CAN get things right. (Strong pro-life social conservative Republican here), he often does. Why, during the campaign, he said there are 50 States in the USA! Correctamundo! Does the fact that he’s a valid man, the legit president, with GREAT authority, who is right a lot of the time mean that ERGO, THEREFORE, he is infallible? Unaccountable? Incapable of error? Exempt from examination and norming? When he speaks, Jesus speaks? Follow me?

See, your friend is WELCOMED (even encouraged) to regard his/her teacher and denomination as accountable. Correction even is permitted, becuase there is no claim of self alone for self alone of infallibility/unaccountablity - norming is embraced rather than forbidden.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

that was amazing! a little like reading the amplified Bible or a legal document but I loved it!

 

[graceandglory]

I think that President Obama CAN get things right. (Strong pro-life social conservative Republican here), he often does. **Why, during the campaign, he said there are 50 States in the USA! Correctamundo! ** Does the fact that he’s a valid man, the legit president, with GREAT authority, who is right a lot of the time mean that ERGO, THEREFORE, he is infallible? Unaccountable? Incapable of error?

.

You sure about that, AmericanJosiah?

youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws



just playing with ya!

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

A protestant pastor i know explained them away by saying that through genuine faith in Christ good works result.

Yet I find this an inadequate response because of protestants i know there are many who are faithful people, but whose works are somewhat lacking. And the bible says “faith without works is dead” why would it say this if it was impossible to have genuine faith without good works resulting? You can be totally faithful to Christ and then sit at home praying or reading the bible. Its sound like a catch-all dismissal of a problem to me.

fortunately for them it will Be the Lord and not you who judges their works.

 

[estesbob]

Several things.
There are lots of Protestant books, websites and so forth that deal with every verse you can imagine. So what is this thread really about, a Protestant who it appears has never actually read James and Revelation and a pastor who it appears might…possibly…be a moron?

Problem is they also personally interpret these verses in every way imaginable.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

It seems to be ‘semantics’. What I mean is, Protestants say if walk with Jesus, good works will come about. That really is the same thing. It just seems to be too much for some to say we actually agree on something…

AMEN!

 

[estesbob]

As a former Catholic I use to argue the same point. However everything has to be put into context. Yes we are called to bare fruit. As part of your belief in Christ, you do so, each according to their abilities. The best example is the parable of the talons. It could not be any clearer. This is exactly what Ephesians is expressing. We are saved by the grace of God like the thief on the Cross who had not performed any works outside his acceptance of Christ. If someone wasn’t to bare fruit, did they truly accept Christ. The fruit is the result of our acceptance. We will be rewarded according to our good works.
.

First rule of Sola Scriptura-verses are to be taken literally unless they confirm Catholic Doctine, in which case they are to be taken figuratively.

 

[graceandglory]

First rule of Sola Scriptura-verses are to be taken literally unless they confirm Catholic Doctine, in which case they are to be taken figuratively.

'Zactly.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Is your daughter Catholic or protestant?

neither. I was a drug addict and my wife and I were not married when she was raised. Her previous boyfriend was an atheist who said things like" if I die and there is a God Im going to tell him, they told me you were BS in collage" . We were really exited when she told us her new boyfriend was Catholic. We thought he might lead her to walk with the Lord.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

First rule of Sola Scriptura-verses are to be taken literally unless they confirm Catholic Doctine, in which case they are to be taken figuratively.

LOL! I hadnt thought of it that way but thats an excellent point! Really though I do try and carefuly consider points made from scripture by Catholics. In fact I would even say thanks to PR Merger and Prodigal I think some consideration to tradition should be considered’

 

[O.S.Luke]

I am sorry you find it offensive. I was being general because in MY experiences I have found MOST Protestants to be that way. I have not really found one who was not that way. They most likely exist, I just have yet to find one.

It seems like you are saying your experiences mean it must be true.

Besides, MANY Protestants make generalizing statements about Catholics and, as you said, “paint a very wide brush” about us. Does that mean I am in the right for doing so about them? Maybe not. But am still asking in a way that fits MY experiences with them.

I would suggest that you reassess your experiences and see if they justify painting a whole lot of people the same way. I am sure some Protestants do exactly what you say. But to generalize is, usually, to condemn by a label. I would think Catholics would especially be above such wide-sweeping thoughts.

As I said, I still have yet to really come across a Protestant that is opposite of the above. So from my experiences and perspective, they kind of all seem that way.

Then I would suggest that you haven’t met many Protestants. I don’t judge Catholics by the ones I know who don’t believe in transubstantiation, the Church’s stance on birth control, or in a celibate priesthood. Would you want me to?

O+

 

[graceandglory]

neither. I was a drug addict and my wife and I were not married when she was raised. Her previous boyfriend was an atheist who said things like" if I die and there is a God Im going to tell him, they told me you were BS in collage" . We were really exited when she told us her new boyfriend was Catholic. We thought he might lead her to walk with the Lord.

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?"
Matthew 7:16

You know better now. Jesus said we will know one another by the fruit that our lives produce. We are called to be “fruit inspectors.”

*** "Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,

idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast**, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.**** Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit."
Galatians 5:19-25*

 

[grace_singh]

there definately are Protesants who take the Sola Fide approach to mean that one does not need to do anything as a believer.

what they miss is the fact that Christ calls us to bear fruits. if we have believed and been saved by faith and are now, by God’s grace, grafted onto Christ, we will bear fruit.

professing Christian faith and having an intellectual understanding of Christianity while still living like a monster and doing nothing by way of discipleship does not equal being alive in and to and for Christ. if Christ did not want us to do certain things and live, in Him, in new ways, He would not have given us all those commandments and standards.

if we did not still sin under grace and need to ask God’s pardon and help, Christ would not have included “forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us” in the Lord’s prayer as something we ought to pray on.

 

[Madaglan]

The locus of the teaching of sola fide is the Pauline corpus, in particular Romans and Galatians. When Martin Luther interpreted passages in these epistles to exclude all works from justification, he subsequently had to reconcile all surrounding Scripture with his discovery of sola fide in the writings of Paul. James, which says, you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), did not settle well with Luther, who openly states in his preface to James that the teaching of justification by works in James is opposed to the teaching of justification by faith alone in Paul. I think that while modern-day conservative Protestants accept James, there yet exists a tendency to view Scripture through the understanding of sola fide as interpreted from Paul.

In Latin Catholicism, the writings of Paul, in particular those concerning justification, are not made the interpretative crux of all in Scripture. There is acknowledgment that Christians no longer are under the law (instead under grace), that works of the law in no way contribute to salvation, and that faith in Christ is the path to salvation–but these are seen operating together with the following of the commandments, per the counsels of Christ in the gospels. .

 

[grace_singh]

In Latin Catholicism, the writings of Paul, in particular those concerning justification, are not made the interpretative crux of all in Scripture. There is acknowledgment that Christians no longer are under the law (instead under grace), that works of the law in no way contribute to salvation, and that faith in Christ is the path to salvation–but these are seen operating together with the following of the commandments, per the counsels of Christ in the gospels.

sounds like a very balanced, sound, and Scripturally-based position to me.

surely faith and grace alone can save us, or else we would all be able to save ourselves, without Christ’s atoning death and resurrection. yet to lose sight of the Christian faith as a walk of discipleship under and through Christ, to lose or reject the joy of taking up His yoke, is to deprive one’s self of true life in Him.

 

[x1980x]

Okay Protestants, here’s something for you to tackle:

Several years ago I showed a Baptist co-worker of mine James 2:20 (“faith without works is dead”) and Revelation 20:12 (“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds”). She looked at me and said, “You’re right Jean. They DO say that!” She was so disturbed by the Bible verses and that she wasn’t doing any good deeds/works that she just had to go to her Pastor about it. And she did.
…

The way that I understand it, is that the James passage is talking about what kind of faith is meant when it is said that we are saved by faith, as there is more than one type. Saying “I believe” based on an intellectual argument without demonstrating devotion to Jesus Christ and attempting (however feebly) to live according to the Gospel might arguably be considered to constitute some type of faith according to a full dictionary definition of faith (or the equivalent Greek word), but not the type of faith meant by Paul when he stated that we are saved by faith. Remember that language is imperfect and that words have multiple meanings and senses.

Take a careful look at the Revelations passage. Note that the people are judged, not condemned. The criterion for salvation here is being written in the book of life, not on the outcome of trials that are being held. A basic Protestant understanding of this is that a person who is “saved” is written in the book of life. Now, at the end of time, people will stand before the throne and be judged - but for those who are “saved”(=being written in the book of life), won’t be sentenced to eternal damnation, their sentence is “suspended”, like secular judges in criminal courts sometimes do, because of their faith in Jesus Christ and are admitted into paradise.

 

[vera_dicere]

I went, well, was dragged along too, a Protestant youth group. The pastor started harping on about Catholics and how we [Catholics] viewed Protestants as the “lazy christians” seeing as they didn’t do anything. He then went on to say about pre-destination, which, in of itself, is a heckishly creepy concept when you think about it.

I don’t think all Protestants act like this, or think like this, and goodness konws I’ve met my share of Catholics who think we don’t have to assist our brothers and sisters.

I mean, those two verses you provided are all very well and good, but they have to mean something, because then Jesus went onto say “clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in prison et cetera, do unto others… least of these”. IMHO Jesus made a big speil about that sort of thing, and if its coming straight out of Jesus’ mouth, we better listen up!

 

[Third_Day]

=shawn38;6178298]As a former Catholic I use to argue the same point

…
Sorry that you wern’t taught your Catholic faith

We are saved by the grace of God like the thief on the Cross who had not performed any works outside his acceptance of Christ.

Are you sure about that? The thief did not just believe.His repentance was a good work
His admittance of sin was a good work. His humility was a good work. He was not saved by faith alone.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Surley you realize that Paul was talking to Jewish Christians about the Old Covenant works like circumcision. He was not talking about works like keeping the commandments.
Romans 7:12
“So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good”

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 13:9-10
The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again, Paul is talking about the old covenant ceremonial law not about the moral law.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This has nothing to do about works done in the grace of Christ. This is about asking God for mercy (a work) and the Pharisee that wanted to exalt himself. Works done for the glory of God are pleasing to God. James 4:6 "God opposses the proud, but gives grace to the humble

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. * 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Grace is a free gift of God.

If works were necessary, is it a free gift? No!

How do you keep that free gift of grace?

Romans 11:21-22
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

You can lose that free gift through sin

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As Paul says, the wages of sin is death… Do you believe that the free gift of grace will be given to you if you reject God by your sin?

Romans11:22 “kindness to you provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off”

Is salvation a gift if you have to work for it? No! Your works will be judged and you will be rewarded accordingly.

Exactly.
Romans 2:6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger"

2 Cor. 5:10 “ For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body

And from the mouth of Jesus Christ
Matt. 7:19–23 “,Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

shawn you need to come back to the fullness of truth that is found only in the Catholic Church. Your salvation depends on it. You have wandered into myths.