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tweetymom
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The Holy Spirit opened them up for me.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Maybe you didnât notice, but 3 of the verses I provided was from the chapter you referenced. There were more in the chapter, but I only used 3. Please point out where the context is âclearâ and is talking about more than 10 present, not counting the women.
Before you read through the chapter again, Iâm not trying to stop you Iâve read it several times and have enjoyed each reading, let me share something I discovered. That is, the authors of the Gospels had different writing styles and used different terms. I did a search and discovered that John never used the term âApostlesâ. He always referred to them as disciples.
Matthew and Mark, only used the term once each. Luke uses it 6 times.
**Joh 20:2 She ran therefore and cometh to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved and saith to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre: and we know not where they have laid him.
Joh 20:10 The disciples therefore departed again to their home.
Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.**
I know the Holy Spirit administers the gifts and never said they were gifts of the Church. I apologize if I didnât make myself clear on that point. Even though the Holy Spirit gives gifts, Paul was clear who had set some in the Church, he said, âAnd God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,âŚâ The other scriptures I provided showed Paul speaking of ordination by the imposition of hands, by those in authority.
Maybe them not thinking clearly is why John wrote the following verse.
Joh 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Now, we know John is not lieing and we know that they, as all good Jews, knew the scriptures. What John is telling us is, they did not have the interpretation to let them know He would rise again.
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Prodigal_Son1
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I like this chapter too. I always saw irony in that John 6:66 is the verse that tells us, âFrom this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.â But, thatâs not the point Iâm going to demonstrate to you.
As we have to read things in context, we have to pay attention to all the details of the story so as not to miss anything that could affect the context. In John chapter 6, we see Christ spoke in a synagogue, which can hold a number of people. In John chapter 20, we see the disciples were in their home, and the homes of those times were modest to say the least.
**Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 20:10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home. **
Iâll be looking for your response that clearly shows a context of a lot of people.
Have you given up trying to find anything stating that scriptures are the ONLY authority or that teaches that scriptures should be interpreted by each individual that reads them?
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Prodigal_Son1
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Hey tweetymom, I saw your post and responded to it the first time. I canât imagine why you feel it necessary to quote it to have it posted again? Anyways, here it is again and Iâll repeat my response to you. The Holy Spirit opened them up to the men of the Church that wrote them over 2000 years. Peter wrote about the scriptures and interpretation during those times. Of course we know his authority, as ordained by Christ, Himself.
**2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.**
The Holy Spirit not only opened them up to those that wrote them, through them He opened it up to those they passed them on too. I believe the Holy Spirit also opened them up to the men of the Church that defined the canon of the New Testament, as well as the men of the Church that preserved them upto the present day.
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tweetymom
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Because i wanted to.
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Tantum_ergo
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I love 2 Peter. . .and these particular passages are the ones Iâm often meditating on when it comes to the subject, so often raised and so unvarying âunansweredâ by our Protestant friends, regarding 'interpretation.
**2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.**
Once again, consider this: which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Here is St. Peter telling us that Scripture can be âwrested unto the destructionâ of those who insist that âtheirâ interpretation (when in opposition to the Catholic teaching) is âcorrectâ and that Catholics are âwrongâ.
So. . .by what authority can a person, claiming interpretation A 'from the Holy Spirit, and opposing person B, likewise claiming the Holy Spirit, be **certain that they are interpreting correctly?
**I know, I know. Weâve asked it before and all we have (yet) received from our separated brethren are:
**2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.**
Once again, consider this: which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Here is St. Peter telling us that Scripture can be âwrested unto the destructionâ of those who insist that âtheirâ interpretation (when in opposition to the Catholic teaching) is âcorrectâ and that Catholics are âwrongâ.
So. . .by what authority can a person, claiming interpretation A 'from the Holy Spirit, and opposing person B, likewise claiming the Holy Spirit, be **certain that they are interpreting correctly?
**I know, I know. Weâve asked it before and all we have (yet) received from our separated brethren are:
- âI just know, thatâs all. Especially because you Catholics have done the Crusades, the Inquisition, rosaries, worship Mary, etc.â
2 âThe Holy Spirit tells us. If He doesnât tell you the same thing, youâre either refusing to listen to Him or youâre deliberately choosing evil.â - âIâm not going to âjudgeâ whatâs true or not; Iâll just give reasons âwhyâ Iâm right but I wonât even comment on others being wrong. Iâll just pretend that any conflicts, even between me and my fellow Protestants, just donât exist.â
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Prodigal_Son1
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jericho777,
I use a Bible program called esword. Itâs free and can be downloaded from e-sword.net/. Itâs actually a Protestant website and it offers a lot of resources on their website.
Iâve had to find most Catholic resources from other sites; the Catechism, dictionaries, translation programs for the Greek and Hebrew, a English translation of the Aramaic, maps, writings of the early Church fathers (all 38 volumes), other books, etc. etc.
As I mentioned the versions of the Bibles above, I actually have 10 versions loaded, including 2 KJVs.
Even though most of it is free, there are certain Bibles and other modules that cost. I never paid for anything Iâve loaded into it. It has places to put study notes, etc.
The best feature is the search feature. Thatâs how I found out that John didnât use the term âApostlesâ.
It doesnât bog my computer down and itâs fairly user friendly. I learned it through trial and error and even then, I donât take advantages of all the features it offers.
The topics section is how Iâve organized my discussion materials, or study notes, and stuff gets added all the time.
Itâs a great Bible study tool for your computer, especially on a laptop.
And, you canât beat the price.
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MyRdmrLvs
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As I read the Bible I see time after time God setting something up and man messing it up over and over why would that suddenly stop with the church.
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Prodigal_Son1
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He chose the 12 and Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him and Thomas doubted Him. John 6:66 tells us many of His disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. He chose Paul, who had caused the deaths of many Christians, but Christ changed him.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them: for that he knew all men,
Christ knew ALL men. He knew what He was leaving His Church in the hands of, yet He built His Church on Peter, that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, gave Him the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the authority to bind and loose on earth.
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Dokimas
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Iâm not sure it has.
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MyRdmrLvs
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Yes I should amend my comment that, though Man always messes up God always works it for His will. I think we have a completely different idea of what gates of hell prevailing means. as well as what took place when Christ said" I give you the keysâŚ". I dont believe the âyouâ here is referring only to Peter though the previous sentence did. Other verses about who would be the greatest among the disciples contradict your interpretation. The fact that the Roman Church reads it that way is understandable . I think the history of early church counsels voting on important doctrines prove that they didnt believe in either papal infallibility or Roman supremacy. The Church that the gates of Hell wont prevail against are all those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life.
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tweetymom
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Andrew_Phillip
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I invite my protestant brothers and sisters to listen to an Orthodox perspective on this:
youtube.com/watch?v=zJ7Y_eFq6l8&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=zJ7Y_eFq6l8&feature=related
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tweetymom
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Very interesting, one mans opinion, but interesting.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Well, letâs take another look, I have checked 10 versions of the Bible and they are all the same.
Jesus said, âBlessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.â Then the Lord starts the next sentence with, âANDâŚâ, âThat thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.â Now, to show the Lord was still talking to Peter and Peter only, the Lord starts the next sentence, âANDâŚâ, âI will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.â This wording clearly shows there was one train of thought being expressed AND who it was being expressed too.
**Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. **
As for the âotherâ discussion, in reference to who would be the greatest in heaven, that took place in chapter 18, after the discussion about His Church, at least a week later. This discussion was started by Christ asking, âWhom do men say that the Son of man is?â
Councils always took place and every good Pope took counsel from the bishops of the Church, who met in councils to discuss matters. Itâs not strictly a one man show as Protestants seem to think or make it out to be.
As for the gates of hell statement, the Lord was specifically speaking about His Church. He specifically said it and did not make a reference to the members or if theyâre names were written in the book of life. Those whose names are written in the book are beyond the âconcernsâ of hell.
Trying to make this something else is not following the context of where it was spoken and who was being spoken too and what was specifically said.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Actually, youâre wrong again. Itâs the opinion of a CHURCH and not one manâs opinion.
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tweetymom
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Oh really not for me But thats my opinion! Thanks and God Bless
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CMatt25
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I sometimes wonder too since Christ gave all disciples the power to bind and loose in Matt 18, if isnât that what keys do?
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Prodigal_Son1
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The keys gave a greater authority, to bind and loose and make doctrinal decisions as taught by Christ.
In chapter 18, we see bind and loose in settling disputes between members of the body, under the authority of the Church. To bind communion (withhold), binding a communion with heaven withheld, or loosing communion (giving) allowing a communion with heaven.
Read the CatechismâŚ
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Andrew_Phillip
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**Yes⌠thatâs pretty much what we Orthodox think too.
And for about the first 1000 years, thatâs what the Church taught.**
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