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PRmerger
Guest
Could you provide an example of the CC’s “doctrinal changes” or new theological formulations?
- Status
P
PRmerger
Guest
Hi, Gary,
Yes, PRmerger does provide for excellent posts … but, do try and keep the ‘mushyness’ down
God bless
P
PJM
Guest
When a door is opened an INCH it’s easier to open than when it is SHUT and Locked.
Selling Indulgences unlocked the door and Opened it for Satan to once again offer competiation to Truth, Hope, Love and Justice.
Man-made religions happened because of the opportunity given to them. Sadly Luther himself was duped. He did not start out to form a man-made religion; but circumstances based on PRIDE of all involved; permitted Satan an opportunity; and he is not One to miss many.
Code:
PRIDE is the vehicle; and once this freight trian is loaded and running DOWN hill; it's impossible to stop!
Strong Words for those who chose to Exodus the Only Faith Founded by Christ!
God Bless,
Pat
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Bluegoat
Guest
Actually, I didn’t say there were doctrinal changes, if you read what I said. Most mainline Protestants would say they also do not have doctrinal changes.
What they would say is that there is development of doctrine, which is a Catholic idea.
As for new theological formulations - how about everything that came out of all the Christological controversies? Or the word “transubstantiation” that was unknown before the medieval period?
C
CMatt25
Guest
Close is better than far.
I see you have related questions from others so I’ll sit back and observe. 
H
hn160
Guest
Before the Reformation of Martin Luther, there were reformers the likes of Jan Hus (burned at the stake, John Wickliffe and Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus who was afraid to challenge Rome on reform.
Martin Luther when he posted the 95 Theses at Wittenberg tried to a debate with the universities about the abuse of indulgences and the corruption that was in the Church at the time. For example the Albert of Mainz who was Archbishop, he purchased three bishoprics, he needed these indulgences to pay for these bishoprics.
If you read the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, you see that Luther didn’t want to leave the Catholic Church, he was forced out and could have been burned at the stake like Jan Hus. If politics of Rome, the Pope of the time,France and the Holy Roman Empire hadn’t got in the way maybe the break would not have taken place.
I am not anti-Catholic.
Martin Luther when he posted the 95 Theses at Wittenberg tried to a debate with the universities about the abuse of indulgences and the corruption that was in the Church at the time. For example the Albert of Mainz who was Archbishop, he purchased three bishoprics, he needed these indulgences to pay for these bishoprics.
If you read the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, you see that Luther didn’t want to leave the Catholic Church, he was forced out and could have been burned at the stake like Jan Hus. If politics of Rome, the Pope of the time,France and the Holy Roman Empire hadn’t got in the way maybe the break would not have taken place.
I am not anti-Catholic.
P
Protestant101
Guest
Hi tqualey! Give me a little time; I will be back in a couple days with some more details that you were commenting on, on page 7 of this topic. I am quite interested in the last paragraph or two and will appreciate continuing with that!
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Bluegoat,
Admittedly, all analogies limp … but, I think the amoeba analogy is bedfast!
Let me explain…
When the amoeba divides, it is genetically identical to its ‘parent’. Protestants ‘divided’ or separated and totally left the ‘parent’ - and, that Parent is Christ and the Church He founded that provides the Grace of the Sacraments. There is Life and there is the appearance of life. Appearances can be deceiving.
Please note that in the 500 years of Protestantism we see the ‘development’ of certain doctrines like practicing homosexual clergy and bishops, endorsing ‘same-sex marriage’ and other-wise approving of homosexual behavior. While this homosexual behavior is specifically and repeatedly condemned in boththe OT and NT - we are witnessing ‘developments’ that simply abrogate the Word of God!
Now, from statements made by the founders of the Protestant Revolt - homosexual behavior was not approved by them at all. This apparent approval by the various churches has caused serious discord and division amongst the members - and schism has resulted.
Not all change is beneficial - in fact, some (as in the cases mentioned above) are quite harmful.
But, we really can not stop there, can we… In Matt 16, Christ not only founded His Chruch on Peter but gave him the authority to bind and lose and the keys to the kingdom to identify that it was Peter who was in charge per Christ’s orders. Christ also said that He would have the Holy Spirit guide His Church and we would not be left orphans.
Note: that Christ’s Church - ever since the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15 in about 50AD) has been making decisions - not specifically identified by Christ! We know Christ was circucized on the 8th day, and the assumption is that His Twelve Apostles (all being Jews) were also circumcised. They also were required to follow the Law of Moses. Look what happens, 17 years after Christ ascended into heaven, it is decided that neither circumcision or following the Law of Moses is necessary to be a follower of Christ! Considering all the history behind these OT requirements, this is really a major break from the past. It is also one of many that came from the various Chruch Councils.
Please see that this is quite different from an angry monk taking matters into his own hands and nailing his 95-theses on the chruch door. That is heresy and apostacy in action.
God bless
Admittedly, all analogies limp … but, I think the amoeba analogy is bedfast!
Let me explain…When the amoeba divides, it is genetically identical to its ‘parent’. Protestants ‘divided’ or separated and totally left the ‘parent’ - and, that Parent is Christ and the Church He founded that provides the Grace of the Sacraments. There is Life and there is the appearance of life. Appearances can be deceiving.
Please note that in the 500 years of Protestantism we see the ‘development’ of certain doctrines like practicing homosexual clergy and bishops, endorsing ‘same-sex marriage’ and other-wise approving of homosexual behavior. While this homosexual behavior is specifically and repeatedly condemned in boththe OT and NT - we are witnessing ‘developments’ that simply abrogate the Word of God!
Now, from statements made by the founders of the Protestant Revolt - homosexual behavior was not approved by them at all. This apparent approval by the various churches has caused serious discord and division amongst the members - and schism has resulted.Not all change is beneficial - in fact, some (as in the cases mentioned above) are quite harmful.
But, we really can not stop there, can we…
In Matt 16, Christ not only founded His Chruch on Peter but gave him the authority to bind and lose and the keys to the kingdom to identify that it was Peter who was in charge per Christ’s orders. Christ also said that He would have the Holy Spirit guide His Church and we would not be left orphans.Note: that Christ’s Church - ever since the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15 in about 50AD) has been making decisions - not specifically identified by Christ! We know Christ was circucized on the 8th day, and the assumption is that His Twelve Apostles (all being Jews) were also circumcised. They also were required to follow the Law of Moses. Look what happens, 17 years after Christ ascended into heaven, it is decided that neither circumcision or following the Law of Moses is necessary to be a follower of Christ! Considering all the history behind these OT requirements, this is really a major break from the past. It is also one of many that came from the various Chruch Councils.
Please see that this is quite different from an angry monk taking matters into his own hands and nailing his 95-theses on the chruch door. That is heresy and apostacy in action.
God bless
To answer what the OP:
What I would tend to say is that the Church is kind of like an amoeba. (Stay with me here
So, for 1500 years you have one, one-celled organism, and then it splits and you have two.
So, which one was there “first”? We wouldn’t say that one of them has no history and suddenly appeared from nothing - rather, they have a shared history.
As for why there was doctrinal changes or new theological formulations, I’d say look up the Catholic idea of “development of doctrine”. That’s where Protestantism got the idea from.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, P101,
No problem - have a nice trip.
I probably was a overly vague in my request for examples … so … let me change that around and give you a couple and you tell me where these have existed from all time. This material comes from the Wiki reference I previously offered:
“Distinctive teachings include the unconscious state of the dead and the doctrine of an investigative judgment.”
As a suggestion, you may want to check the accuracy of the Wiki article - it may contian errors and someone like me would not know enough to catch them…
Looking forward to hearing from you on your return.
God bless
No problem - have a nice trip.
I probably was a overly vague in my request for examples … so … let me change that around and give you a couple and you tell me where these have existed from all time. This material comes from the Wiki reference I previously offered:
“Distinctive teachings include the unconscious state of the dead and the doctrine of an investigative judgment.”
As a suggestion, you may want to check the accuracy of the Wiki article - it may contian errors and someone like me would not know enough to catch them…
Looking forward to hearing from you on your return.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Hn160,
The Catholic Church you describe certainly seems determined not to listen to anyone about their obvious public sins and abuses … but, maybe there is more to this story that needs to be brought out. Let’s see …
Actually, way before the Protestant Revolt (they really did not ‘reform’ the Chruch, they broke away from it) begun by Hus, Wickliffe and Co. there was a Catholic religious who was not too impressed with the abuses that were going on in the Catholic Chruch, either! St. Catherine of Siena (newadvent.org/cathen/03447a.htm) gave the type of example that Hus and Luther and Calvin could have actually followed.
If you read about this remarkable woman, seeing the abuses she saw and the actions she took (and succeeded at!!) to resolve them, you will be truly amazed. So much so that today while we call on St. Catherine of Siena - we could have also been calling on 'St. Martin Luther"!!
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not endorsing or protecting the abuses of highly placed officials in the Catholic Church. The ‘sale’ of indulgences has always been wrong. Ultimately, the issue is one of how do we address the problems of a large organization. It did not have to turn out the way it did with Hus being burned at the stake and Luther fearing the same would befll him, too.
God bless
Tqualey
The Catholic Church you describe certainly seems determined not to listen to anyone about their obvious public sins and abuses … but, maybe there is more to this story that needs to be brought out. Let’s see …
Actually, way before the Protestant Revolt (they really did not ‘reform’ the Chruch, they broke away from it) begun by Hus, Wickliffe and Co. there was a Catholic religious who was not too impressed with the abuses that were going on in the Catholic Chruch, either! St. Catherine of Siena (newadvent.org/cathen/03447a.htm) gave the type of example that Hus and Luther and Calvin could have actually followed.
If you read about this remarkable woman, seeing the abuses she saw and the actions she took (and succeeded at!!) to resolve them, you will be truly amazed. So much so that today while we call on St. Catherine of Siena - we could have also been calling on 'St. Martin Luther"!!
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not endorsing or protecting the abuses of highly placed officials in the Catholic Church. The ‘sale’ of indulgences has always been wrong. Ultimately, the issue is one of how do we address the problems of a large organization. It did not have to turn out the way it did with Hus being burned at the stake and Luther fearing the same would befll him, too.
God bless
Tqualey
C
CMatt25
Guest
Hi Tom, I’m personally not interested in getting into a debate on Adventist beliefs here but just a suggestion. If you fear possible errors in Wiki and potentially not knowing enough to catch them, maybe check out the official Adventist website.As a suggestion, you may want to check the accuracy of the Wiki article - it may contian errors and someone like me would not know enough to catch them…
Here’s a link to their fundamental beliefs with the Biblical references they use.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
Peace.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
I wasn’t trying to suggest that Reformation Protestantism and Catholisism were identical. Only that the idea that the Reformers didn’t suddenly appear out of no where, which is the suggestion when someone says they didn’t have a history before the 1500’s. Or even when it is claimed that they were founded by individuals. THat is not how the Reformers understood it at all. From their POV, they were the Catholic Church - it was the "Catholic Church ™ that was no longer properly part of the Church. THe question of how one can have a Church that only started in the 1500’s doesn’t make any sense from this perspective.Hi, Bluegoat,
Admittedly, all analogies limp … but, I think the amoeba analogy is bedfast!
When the amoeba divides, it is genetically identical to its ‘parent’. Protestants ‘divided’ or separated and totally left the ‘parent’ - and, that Parent is Christ and the Church He founded that provides the Grace of the Sacraments. There is Life and there is the appearance of life. Appearances can be deceiving.
Please note that in the 500 years of Protestantism we see the ‘development’ of certain doctrines like practicing homosexual clergy and bishops, endorsing ‘same-sex marriage’ and other-wise approving of homosexual behavior. While this homosexual behavior is specifically and repeatedly condemned in boththe OT and NT - we are witnessing ‘developments’ that simply abrogate the Word of God!
Not all change is beneficial - in fact, some (as in the cases mentioned above) are quite harmful.
But, we really can not stop there, can we…
Note: that Christ’s Church - ever since the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15 in about 50AD) has been making decisions - not specifically identified by Christ! We know Christ was circucized on the 8th day, and the assumption is that His Twelve Apostles (all being Jews) were also circumcised. They also were required to follow the Law of Moses. Look what happens, 17 years after Christ ascended into heaven, it is decided that neither circumcision or following the Law of Moses is necessary to be a follower of Christ! Considering all the history behind these OT requirements, this is really a major break from the past. It is also one of many that came from the various Chruch Councils.
Please see that this is quite different from an angry monk taking matters into his own hands and nailing his 95-theses on the chruch door. That is heresy and apostacy in action.
God bless
And it really doesn’t matter if you think they were right - to say they had no history doesn’t make sense. Luther was a Catholic, and he became what would become known as Lutheran, but that didn’t somehow mean he wasn’t part of a continuity of thought that went back to the beginning of Christianity. You can read Luther through his whole life and see that he is clearly in a tradition of Christian, and specifically Augustinian thought. You might think they went in a bizarre direction, but they were not something that had sprung up as wholly new. To use a different analogy, you may think the branch diseased, but it still grew from the trunk.
I have never understood why people would try to argue that the Reformers thought they were starting something new. It seems to me it is a matter of mixing up the Reformers and their decedents with some modern branches that are rather further removed.
Your points about doctrines that are questionable and validity of Sacraments seem ill placed, since obviously they neither considered their Sacraments invalid nor their doctrines questionable (and none held to the particular ones you mentioned.) How that relates to the idea that they somehow sprang up from nothing I do not know.
And indeed, there are lines of priests that the Catholic Church considers valid that belong that belong to people with far more questionable doctrines than the Protestant Reformers held, and who did not come out of the Reformation at all.
As someone who is fond of the history of thought, I find this line of reasoning very strange.
C
CMatt25
Guest
As OP, your words here and the idea you presented about development, along with posts by others is helping me to understand the Protestant POV better, Bluegoat. Thanks for your continued participation.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ah. So you’re not talking about new teachings, only a different, (more applicable perhaps?) way of proclaiming a truth that has been believed since the first days of the Church?
Nothing wrong with that.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Ok. Very good. I misunderstood.
What about the thousands of non-mainline Protestants. Do you believe they have had doctrinal changes?
P
Protestant101
Guest
I’ll be gone in a few minutes; but couldn’t help address this. Tom, you are not doing justice to Protestant doctrines and practice. Your comments here would be like me saying “because that priest liked little boys; then all priests must.” I think it goes without saying that such doctrines as gay clergy do not represent Protestant beliefs; historically, developmentally, or otherwise. Such practices, which, yes, are against the Word, are done by classes I would not even view as Protestant… Anyways, see you in a couple days
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guanophore
Guest
It is not “bad” either. It is just a commentary on the human mind.Hail,
As a student, these were questions which often plagued my mind. As a student, we’re obliged to ask why. So I did. The answer played a major factor into bringing me into the CC. It has been a bit bothersome, at times, since I’m still somewhat influenced by Protestant teachings.
I worry that if my cup is full of bad water, would that water contaminate the good water? I’ve been mostly trying to throw away that bad water, so there is none of its foulness left.
It’s not good. Not good at all.
-MontChevalier
In such cases, one must follow their heart, and yield to God in obedience. It is a matter of faith, seeking understanding.
The vast majority of Catholics suffer this same struggle over one Teaching or another. Understanding will come. It follows faith.
G
guanophore
Guest
1 Cor 11:17-20
17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19 for there must be factions among you **in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. **
S
SnakeMauler
Guest
God is love and God created a church that would last forever a real actual one because our God is an awesome God.
M
MontChevalier
Guest
Thanks for the advice, but you don’t understand the disgrace I feel. And I doubt you and many others here ever will.Hi, MontChevalier,
Don’t be so hard on yourself.
Unless you were able to chose your parents and place of birth … I do not see a problem! God was able to chose not only your parents and place of birth but all the experiences that have made you, you. The Graces God has given have moved you to the position you are in today - and let me encourage you to continue to follow God’s Grace.
All of us come to the table with ‘bothersome’ influences. Few can probably match St. Augustine ( newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm ) for coming to the table with such problems. If you are not familiar with the early life of this great saint, this link will give you some ideas - and the influences parents have on their off-spring.
We are all carrying around the experiences of our life - it is what we bring to the table every day. The challenge becomes decided which experiences are going to have the dominate influence. Trying to supress experiences usually leads to other problems … but acknowleding them for whatever they are and then putting them in perspective is a healthy approach.
You can join Catholicism by being honest with yourself and talking to your local priest about your concerns. There really is no substitute for a face to face dialogue witht the priest about your decision to join the Catholic Faith. The priest may have started out as a convert, too!
Relax. God has brought you this far - He will not abandon you.
God bless
I often wish I was born somewhere else.
And I’ve already gone to my parish, right now I’m just waiting to see some results so I can get my baptism papers, then off to my first communion! Woot woot!
-MontChevalier
- Status