Protestants & the Real Presence???

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Hi All
We believe in the REAL presence of Christ whenever two or more are present in his name. Math 18:20.
Thanks
 
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jsussvsus:
Hi All
We believe in the REAL presence of Christ whenever two or more are present in his name. Math 18:20.
Thanks
Yes, you are correct. Isn’t it wonderful to experience the real spiritual presence of Christ? 🙂

Christ was both Human and Divine. So when we receive Him in the Holy Eucharist, we are receiving Him in matter and spirit!

Body and Blood—physical
Soul and Divinity—spiritual

It is an indescribable sacramental blessing! And then of course, we receive Him in so many truly spiritual ways also–such as you described in Matt 18:20.

Peace be to you!
Mickey
 
Hi All
I have a question, do catholics believe that Christ is crusified
again during the eucharist? A friend of mine told that he thought
that’s what he remembers being taught when he was a kid.
Thanks.
 
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jsussvsus:
Hi All
I have a question, do catholics believe that Christ is crusified
again during the eucharist? A friend of mine told that he thought
that’s what he remembers being taught when he was a kid.
Thanks.
Nope. That’s a common misconception about what Catholics believe. Christ is not crucified again. The once and for all Sacrafice on calvary becomes present and is offered up by the priest. The Crucifixion is offered up again, but He is not Crucified again. Jesus’ Sacrafice exists outside of time, it’s not just confined to the event on Calvary–in Revelation there is a passage about the Lamb that has been slain since the foundation of the world (sorry, can’t rememebr the number off the top of my head:o )
 
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Contarini:
Here I think you’re simply wrong. Methodist scholars of my acquaintance such as Geoffrey Wainwright at Duke and Chuck Yrigoyen at Drew (not to speak of my wife, who is a theological librarian and a United Methodist deacon) regard the hymns as very important sources for Methodist theology. Both Wainwright and Yrigoyen use them in their basic theology classes. Bear in mind that the Hymns on the Lord’s Supper and most of Charles’s other hymns as well were published under the name of both brothers. Some of them were in fact written by John, though most were written by Charles. Therefore, any theological differences between the brothers presumably do not affect the hymns. If John had disagreed with the hymn’s contents, why would he have published it under his name jointly with his brother’s?

Finally, the hymn I quoted was quoted in the document “This Holy Mystery,” which was adopted by the 2004 General Conference as the official United Methodist statement on sacramental theology. So your discomfort notwithstanding, I continue to believe that “O the Depth of Love Divine” is about as classic a statement of Methodist sacramental theology as you can get. I’d be very happy if I could live to see most Methodists come to believe and live by the theology of that hymn.
In Christ, Edwin
To the highlighted points:
(1) I may well be…I have been 😉 wrong more than once in my life. Still, as much as I love the Wesleyan hymns (I sing in the choir), I love them as music, not as theology. I am ill at ease because, having written some poems in my life, I know that meaning is often sacrificed just to make the lines scan!
(2) I agree! But I would be happier still if we had something a little less nebulous.
As to the brothers Wesley: Their differences are a matter of history. They disagreed all the time. Happily, this caused no animosity. But it was real. One of their most heated debates (interestingly, since we are at CAF) was John’s exasperation over Charles’ disdain for Catholics. (An argument almost certainly conducted w/John’s:yup: rosary in his pocket!)
 
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Zooey:
To the highlighted points:
(1) I may well be…I have been 😉 wrong more than once in my life. Still, as much as I love the Wesleyan hymns (I sing in the choir), I love them as music, not as theology. I am ill at ease because, having written some poems in my life, I know that meaning is often sacrificed just to make the lines scan!
(2) I agree! But I would be happier still if we had something a little less nebulous.
As to the brothers Wesley: Their differences are a matter of history. They disagreed all the time. Happily, this caused no animosity. But it was real. One of their most heated debates (interestingly, since we are at CAF) was John’s exasperation over Charles’ disdain for Catholics. (An argument almost certainly conducted w/John’s:yup: rosary in his pocket!)
Zooey:

A book you should read is The Eucharistic Hymns of John and Charles Wesley - by Ernest Rattenbury. While John and Charles’ arguments were legendary, their arguments did not extend to hymnody; Charles never wrote a hymn that John didn’t agree with (and ‘approve’). And much of the reasons for their hymnody WAS for theology. Most of their Eucharistic hymns were not published in the new hymnal - and that’s a tragedy,

In addition to the hymn that is stated in This Holy Mystery, there is another that emphasizes Real Presence: Come Sinners to the Gospel Feast, tune HURSLEY, (#616 in the Hymnal)… and the 3rd stanza doesn’t even rhyme:
  1. Come and partake the gospel feast,
    be saved from sin in Jesus rest;
    O taste the goodness of our God,
    and eat his flesh and drink his blood.
  1. See him set forth before you eyes;
    behold the bleeding sacrifice;
    his offered love make haste to embrace,
    and freely now be saved by grace.
  1. Ye who believe his record true
    shall sup with him and he with you;
    come to the feast, be saved from sin,
    for Jesus waits to take you in.
If that’s not a powerful understanding of the sacramental theology of the Eucharist, I don’t know what is: Real Presence, sacrifice, atonement… it’s there!

O+
 
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adventistnomore:
O.S. Luke,

Well… allow me to disagree. (Correct me if I’m wrong.)

The use of Aristotileanism to explain the mystery of transubstantiation became less common… lol, after Aristotileanism was discredited in the Renaissance and Scientific Age. While it may have worked for Aquinas, Trent found it harder to use. Even still, the language the Church has used to define the dogma of transubstantiation, while founded upon Aristotelean vocabulary (“accidents” amd “substance”) does not, by necessity, require an Aristotileanism framework (though such an approach was popular as long as the philosophical system was popular). Most of the scholastic speculations on the Eucharist were never defined as dogma, and the Aristotilean phlosophical system obviously never has been.
I will agree that Aristotelianism is ‘out of vogue,’ but I disagree about the use of its language. Transubstantiation, rightly understood, is something I really don’t have that much of a problem with. But it takes the philosophy and science to understand that. As one of my seminary professors of worship (and a Catholic) said, “Now that you have a grasp of it, go out and tell 99% of the Catholics. Most of them don’t have it… including the priests.” I could sense his frustration… and his frustration is mine.
In short, the Catholc Church has ensured that when we speak of Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist, we are speaking of a sacramental, (not local, Christ is locally in Heaven) corporeal (it is his physical body and blood, not simply his spirit or divinity), and true presence of the physical body and blood of Christ (the same body and blood which was sacrificed for us.) If Aristotileanism could probe into this mystery, the Chruch was happy. Now that we believe the philosophical framework we once used to explain the mystery is no longer credible, the Church asserts with even greater positivenss the mystery of the entire Sacrament. (Mysterium Fidei). In either situation however, Catholics have unanimously defended the mystery and miraculous nature of the sacrament.
I’d agree with what you said in the end… but defending a mystery and upholding a mystery are two different things. I think the framework of explaining a mystery removes some of the mystery.
That being said, I beleve it is unfortunate that in the past few decades, Orthodox theologians have sought to strike themselves out as so distinct from their Western brethren, that they distance themselves from a non-Aristotiean interpretation of the term “transubstantiation” (which was affirmed by 16th and 17th century councils).
I think some of it is a matter of semantics and language problems. The Greek word metabole or metavole is more accurately translated as “a change or an alteration.” The Greek word that would more accurately describe transubstantiation would be metousiosis, which might translate as “an alteration/change of the fundamental substance and/or essence.”

The Orthodox didn’t use the term until the 14th c., when Gennadius (a later Patriarch of Constantinople) first used transubstantiation/metousiosis, sometime around the Council of Florence (I think the time’s right for that). Today’s O. scholars think Gennadius took liberties with language and compromise.

The Eastern Orthodox (as well as Oriental Orthodoxy) refrain from philosophical speculations such as those of the scholastic theologians. Easterners are generally comfortable with mystery, and in the words of one Orthodox theologian, the Real Presence is “a doctrine known by divine revelation that could not have been arrived at by reason without revelation.” In short: the O’s would prefer to say too little than to say too much and possibly deviate from the truth.

I’ll post a little more.
 
I believe that the epiklesis prayer certiaily fits transubsttiation more than any abstract concept of “real presence.” (“Make that which is in this cup the body of your hrist, making the change by the Holy Spirit.”) Neither do i believe that transubstntiation (divorced from an Aristotilean framework) compirmises te msyery of it all.
That’s where you and I disagree.

But I’m a good sport; my favorite blog (Anglican Pontifications), agrees with YOU. From the article, “What year at Hogwarts do they teach the Transubstantiation spell?”
Pontificator:
What errors does the dogma of transubstantiation exclude? The answer, at least in the presumptuous judgment of this non-Catholic Pontificator, is clear. It excludes any opinion that does not or cannot affirm that the consecrated elements are, really and truly, the body and blood of the risen Jesus Christ. This is a down-to-earth interpretation of the dogma and does not require an elaborate scholastic metaphysic. Indeed, contemporary Catholic theologians are clear that no council can impose on the Church a particular school or system of philosophy. Thus Aidan Nichols:
Aidan Nichols:
It may be said at once that the Church’s teaching office has no authority to impose a philosophical system, such as Aristotelian Thomism (essentially, a Platonized Aristotelianism modified by the introduction of the notion of creation), on all Catholic divines…. We must distinguish, then, between, on the one hand, the vital systematic philosophical exposition of a natural truth vital to revelation, and that natural truth itself–apprehended, we might say, spontaneously and pre-philosophically by human beings in various cultures or situations. (The Holy Eucharist
, pp. 114-115)
In other words, the dogmatic definition of Trent only requires a commonsense, pre-philosophical ontology. In this context substance answers the question, What is that object? What was the bread and wine before the consecration? Bread and wine. After the consecration? Body and blood. The dogma says no more and no less than this.

Catholic theologians are also clear that the Tridentine dogma does not seek to explain the “how” of the eucharistic transformation. Thus the 1971 ARCIC agreement on the Eucharist:
ARCIC:
The word transubstantiation is commonly used in the Roman Catholic Church to indicate that God acting in the eucharist effects a change in the inner reality of the elements. The term should be seen as affirming the fact of Christ’s presence and of the mysterious and radical change which takes place. In contemporary Roman Catholic theology it is not understood as explaining how the change takes place.
Let me propose a practical test on whether a proposed eucharistic opinion satisfies the Catholic dogma: May the Christian direct his adoration to the Blessed Sacrament? Or to put it bluntly, may he pray to that object on the altar that appears to be bread?
You (and others) might enjoy reading all of it here.

Pax,

O+
 
O.S. Luke,

you may want to check this out, Re: Pontifications.
pontifications.classicalanglican.net/?p=899
Last night I tendered my resignation to the Vestry of St. Mark’s Church, effective July 1st. It is my intention to renounce my orders as an Episcopal priest and to enter, for the sake of my salvation, into full communion with the Catholic Church. I freely affirm the Catholic Church to be the one true fold of Jesus Christ. It is also my intention to avail myself of the Pastoral Provision and to apply for ordination to the Catholic priesthood.
When you say your favorite Blog is Anglican Pontifications. . .have you given up reading him now that he is Catholic?! Hope not!😉

Anyway, nice link, thank you!
VC
 
Verbum Caro:
O.S. Luke,

you may want to check this out, Re: Pontifications.
pontifications.classicalanglican.net/?p=899

When you say your favorite Blog is Anglican Pontifications. . .have you given up reading him now that he is Catholic?! Hope not!😉

Anyway, nice link, thank you!
VC
The “Pontificator” and I have corresponded back and forth for several years (I moderate on a site that he often posted on). I know how long he’s wrestled with this… and he knows the uphill battle on getting a pastoral provision to become a priest in the Catholic Church (no one wanted to tackle that in my neck of the woods in my case). You might want to read more about Fr. Al here.

Blessings to him and Christine.

O+
 
O.S. Luke,

Thank you for that link! I have only recently discovered (2 months or so) his blog, and I have been fascinated by his articulate and penetrating observations on the faith.

It seems many people have been following his story with a keen interest, and I am becoming one of them.

Thank you again,
VC

😉
 
O.S. Luke…

Thank you for your very cordial treatment of my response, I am deeply appreciative of your very Christian approach.

I have much more to study in this field, and I wholeheartely respect your diagrements. They are certainly forcing me to reexamine the foundations of my faith more.

+Hugo
 
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