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RedDeathsMask
Guest
Help! Can someone please answer the objections on this website? justforcatholics.org/a124.htm
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mercygate
Guest
Protestant refutations of the claim that Peter is not the rock by our own itsjustdave1988: itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/04/upon-this-rock-is-rock-of-matt-1618.html
Good thread on the Scripture Forum: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=45207&highlight=petros%2Fpetra
The article is correct that the full-blown concept of the Papacy as having universal jurisdication grew over time. But it was held by early fathers, such as Ignatius and Irenaeus before the end of the second century. You can look that up. Check the articles listed on the left side of the CA home page.
No way is Peter NOT the rock.
Good thread on the Scripture Forum: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=45207&highlight=petros%2Fpetra
The article is correct that the full-blown concept of the Papacy as having universal jurisdication grew over time. But it was held by early fathers, such as Ignatius and Irenaeus before the end of the second century. You can look that up. Check the articles listed on the left side of the CA home page.
No way is Peter NOT the rock.
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chadwilliams
Guest
The underlying difference between Catholics and protestants is that the protestants believe “if it ain’t in the bible, it ain’t true.”
Catholics don’t believe that way, we have 2000 years of Tradition passed down from the earliest Christian Church to today.
If Jesus didn’t mean to make Peter the Prince of the Apostles, the very first Christians sure did misunderstand that! Likewise, if Jesus didn’t mean that the Eucharist is His Body and Blood, not mere symbols, then the very first Christians misunderstood that too!
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp
catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp%between%
catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
Who do you believe - someone who lives in the year 2005 or someone who lived in 80 AD?
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RedDeathsMask
Guest
You know, the Bible says slander is a sin; look what I just found.
“And he brought him to Jesus; and when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Joannes: thou shall be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation, Peter.” It is not a great thing that the Lord said whose son Peter was. What is great to the Lord? He knew all the names of His own saints, whom He predestinated before the foundation of the world; and dost thou wonder that He said to one man, Thou art the son of this man, and thou shall be called this or that? Is it a great matter that He changed his name, and converted it from Simon to Peter? Peter is from petra, a rock, but the petra [rock]; is the Church; in the name of Peter, then, was the Church figured. And who is safe, unless he who builds upon the rock? And what saith the Lord Himself? “He that heareth these my words, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man building his house upon a rock” (he doth not yield to temptation). “The rain descended, the floods came, the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth my words, and doeth them not” (now let each one of us fear and beware), " I will liken him to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand: the rain descended, the floods came, the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." What profit is it to enter the Church for him who builds upon the sand? For, by hearing and not doing, he builds indeed, but on the sand. For if he hears nothing, he builds nothing; but if he hears, he builds. But we ask, Where? For if he hears and does, he builds upon the rock; if he hears and does not, he builds upon the sand. There are two kinds of builders, those building upon the rock, and those building upon the sand. What, then, are those who do not hear? Are they safe? Does He say that they are safe because they do not build? They are naked beneath the rains, before the winds, before the floods; when these come, they carry away: those persons before they overthrow the houses. It is then the only security, both to build, and to build upon the rock. If thou wilt hear and do not, thou buildest; but thou buildest a ruin: and when temptation comes it overthrows the house, and carries away thee with the ruin. But if thou dost not hear, thou art naked; thou thyself art dragged away by those temptations. Hear, then, and do; it is the only remedy. How many, perchance, on this day, by hearing and not doing, are hurried away on the stream of this festival! For, through hearing and not doing, the flood cometh, this annual festival; the torrent is filled, it will pass away and become dry, but woe to him whom it shall carry away! Know this, then, beloved, that unless a man hears and does, he builds not upon the rock, and he does not belong to that great name which the Lord so commended. For He has called thy attention. For if Simon had been called Peter before, thou wouldest not have so clearly seen the mystery of the rock, and thou wouldest have thought that he was called so by chance, not by the providence of God; therefore God willed that he should be called first something else, that by the very change of name the reality of the sacrament might be commended to our notice." (St. Augustine, Tractate 7on John 1:34-51)
“And he brought him to Jesus; and when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Joannes: thou shall be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation, Peter.” It is not a great thing that the Lord said whose son Peter was. What is great to the Lord? He knew all the names of His own saints, whom He predestinated before the foundation of the world; and dost thou wonder that He said to one man, Thou art the son of this man, and thou shall be called this or that? Is it a great matter that He changed his name, and converted it from Simon to Peter? Peter is from petra, a rock, but the petra [rock]; is the Church; in the name of Peter, then, was the Church figured. And who is safe, unless he who builds upon the rock? And what saith the Lord Himself? “He that heareth these my words, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man building his house upon a rock” (he doth not yield to temptation). “The rain descended, the floods came, the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth my words, and doeth them not” (now let each one of us fear and beware), " I will liken him to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand: the rain descended, the floods came, the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." What profit is it to enter the Church for him who builds upon the sand? For, by hearing and not doing, he builds indeed, but on the sand. For if he hears nothing, he builds nothing; but if he hears, he builds. But we ask, Where? For if he hears and does, he builds upon the rock; if he hears and does not, he builds upon the sand. There are two kinds of builders, those building upon the rock, and those building upon the sand. What, then, are those who do not hear? Are they safe? Does He say that they are safe because they do not build? They are naked beneath the rains, before the winds, before the floods; when these come, they carry away: those persons before they overthrow the houses. It is then the only security, both to build, and to build upon the rock. If thou wilt hear and do not, thou buildest; but thou buildest a ruin: and when temptation comes it overthrows the house, and carries away thee with the ruin. But if thou dost not hear, thou art naked; thou thyself art dragged away by those temptations. Hear, then, and do; it is the only remedy. How many, perchance, on this day, by hearing and not doing, are hurried away on the stream of this festival! For, through hearing and not doing, the flood cometh, this annual festival; the torrent is filled, it will pass away and become dry, but woe to him whom it shall carry away! Know this, then, beloved, that unless a man hears and does, he builds not upon the rock, and he does not belong to that great name which the Lord so commended. For He has called thy attention. For if Simon had been called Peter before, thou wouldest not have so clearly seen the mystery of the rock, and thou wouldest have thought that he was called so by chance, not by the providence of God; therefore God willed that he should be called first something else, that by the very change of name the reality of the sacrament might be commended to our notice." (St. Augustine, Tractate 7on John 1:34-51)
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MariaG
Guest
Frankly, the article is rather sad. They say we can not know for sure that Jesus spoke in Aramaic but then the writer assumes and writes everything as if he knows Jesus spoke in Greek.
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RedDeathsMask
Guest
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp
I found here that St. Augustine definently believed in the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome.
I found here that St. Augustine definently believed in the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome.
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RedDeathsMask
Guest
You know, the whole website is sad, it’s just for us… http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif
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mercygate
Guest
Right, MariaG. We don’t know that Jesus spoke Aramaic – except from the cross, in a state of excruciating agony, down at the bottom of his human reserves . . . and he quotes SCRIPTURE in Aramaic! Puh-leeze.
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RedDeathsMask
Guest
“And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi.” (Mark 5:41)
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Church_Militant
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And then why is St.Peter called Cephas in so many other places in the NT? DUH!
RDM, I think we show tell “Dr.” Mizzi “NO THANKS” for his “thoughtful” gift.
Pax vobiscum,
RDM, I think we show tell “Dr.” Mizzi “NO THANKS” for his “thoughtful” gift.
Pax vobiscum,
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I’m thinking about when he states that with the gender issue, it should read, “Thou art PETROS and on this PETROS I will build my church.” But wait a minute, then that would mean You are stone and on this stone I will build my church. Making Peter’s faith meerly a stone, nothing significant.
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Milliardo
Guest
This is the sad cop-out of Protestants. They would claim they’re not sure He spoke in Aramaic, nevermind if their own Bible scholars admit that He spoke in Aramaic. Sad that they should even deny their own schlars!
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I’m glad to see that there are even Baptists that recognize that Peter is indeed the rock.
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Ghosty
Guest
I’ll back the others up with the Cephas argument. Paul refers to Peter as Cephas, which is the obvious transliteration of Kepha into Greek. We can therefore determine exactly what Jesus called Peter first, and it wasn’t Petros!
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MaggieOH
Guest
Correct, there are several references to Cephas or Kepha. It is an obvious transliteration. The Petra/Petros thing came along several centuries after the fact.
The Prots who claim that Jesus did not speak Aramaic obviously have not read the Scripture properly. The Aramaic fits perfectly as the language of Jesus. This has been proved by some Bible scholars who have taken the Greek texts and then translated them backwards into Aramaic, and then retranslated them into English to get a better rendering of the texts.
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Psalm45_9
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Commentary from the Haydock Douay-Rheims Bible on John 1:42:
“Ver. 42. *Thou art Simon, the son of Jona, *or John. Jesus, who knew all things, knew his name, and at that first meeting told him he should hearafter be called Cephas, or Petrus, a rock, designating to make him the chief or head of his whole Church. See Matt. xvi. 18. Wi–Cephas is a Syriac word, its import is the same as rock or stone. And as S. Paul commonly calleth him by this name: whereas others, both Greeks and Latins call him by the Greek appellation, Peter; which signifies exactly the same thing. Hence S. Cyril saith, that or Savior, by fortelling that his name should be now no more Simon, but Peter; which did by the word itself aptly signify, that on him, as on a rock most firm, he would build his Church. Lib. ii c. 12. in Joan.”
“Ver. 42. *Thou art Simon, the son of Jona, *or John. Jesus, who knew all things, knew his name, and at that first meeting told him he should hearafter be called Cephas, or Petrus, a rock, designating to make him the chief or head of his whole Church. See Matt. xvi. 18. Wi–Cephas is a Syriac word, its import is the same as rock or stone. And as S. Paul commonly calleth him by this name: whereas others, both Greeks and Latins call him by the Greek appellation, Peter; which signifies exactly the same thing. Hence S. Cyril saith, that or Savior, by fortelling that his name should be now no more Simon, but Peter; which did by the word itself aptly signify, that on him, as on a rock most firm, he would build his Church. Lib. ii c. 12. in Joan.”
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Psalm45_9
Guest
Commentary from the Haydock Douay-Rheims Bible on Matthew 16:18:
“Ver. 18. And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (John i. 42.) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore here promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors and princes. T.—In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus spoke, there is no difference of genders, as there is in Latin, between petra, a rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the allusion was both more natural and more simple. V.—*Thou art Peter; and upon this rock *(i.e. upon thee, according to the literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I will build my Church. **It is true S. Augustine, in one or two places, thus expounds these words, *and upon this rock *(i.e. upon myself) or upon this rock, which Peter has confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other interpretation, by which Peter himself is the rock. Some Fathers have also expounded it upon the faith, which Peter confessed; but then they take not faith, as separated from the person of Peter, but on Peter, as holding the true faith. No one questions that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone, as S. Paul tells the Ephesians; (C. ii, v. 20.) but it is also certain, that all the apostles may be called foundation-stones of the Church, as represented Apoc. Xxi. 14. In the mean time, S. Peter (called therefore Cephas, a rock) was the first chief foundation-stone among the apostles, on whom Christ promised to build his Church. Wi.—Thou art Peter, &c. as S. Peter by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ, so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares him the dignity to which he is pleased to raised him: viz. that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, (John i. 42.) should he be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the Church; in which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly the fullness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of Heaven.—Upon this rock, &c. The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews, which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church. So that by plain word, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the Church was to be built; Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ by building his house, that is, his Church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods like the wise builder. Matt. Vii. 24, 25.”
“Ver. 18. And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (John i. 42.) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore here promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors and princes. T.—In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus spoke, there is no difference of genders, as there is in Latin, between petra, a rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the allusion was both more natural and more simple. V.—*Thou art Peter; and upon this rock *(i.e. upon thee, according to the literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I will build my Church. **It is true S. Augustine, in one or two places, thus expounds these words, *and upon this rock *(i.e. upon myself) or upon this rock, which Peter has confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other interpretation, by which Peter himself is the rock. Some Fathers have also expounded it upon the faith, which Peter confessed; but then they take not faith, as separated from the person of Peter, but on Peter, as holding the true faith. No one questions that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone, as S. Paul tells the Ephesians; (C. ii, v. 20.) but it is also certain, that all the apostles may be called foundation-stones of the Church, as represented Apoc. Xxi. 14. In the mean time, S. Peter (called therefore Cephas, a rock) was the first chief foundation-stone among the apostles, on whom Christ promised to build his Church. Wi.—Thou art Peter, &c. as S. Peter by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ, so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares him the dignity to which he is pleased to raised him: viz. that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, (John i. 42.) should he be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the Church; in which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly the fullness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of Heaven.—Upon this rock, &c. The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews, which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church. So that by plain word, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the Church was to be built; Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ by building his house, that is, his Church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods like the wise builder. Matt. Vii. 24, 25.”
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Back up in Matthew to Jesus’ parable about the wise man who built his house on a rock instead of sand. The wise man alludes to Solomon who built the house of God on a HUGE rock that some believed was the lid on Hell. Jesus is CLEARLY making a connection when he renames Simon. This big rock/little rock stuff is such a piccadillo.
Scott
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RedDeathsMask
Guest
Scott Waddell:
I find now that even using Cephas in Matthew 16:18 does not help when speaking with anti-Catholics. They say, “Well the Holy Spirit choose the Gospels to be written in Greek.” :banghead:
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