Protestants vs. Catholics on Justification and Faith: In Plain Language

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MarcoPolo said:
Actually, the whole idea of purification has been essential to the idea of purgatory from the beginning, including in light of the “punishments” believed to be the means of purification: And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394)

Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorical or purifying punishments, as Brother John has explained to us. And to relieve punishments of this kind, the offerings of the living faithful are of advantage to these, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, alms, and other duties of piety, which have customarily been performed by the faithful for the other faithful according to the regulations of the Church. However, the souls of those who after having received holy baptism have incurred no stain of sin whatever, also those souls who, after contracting the stain of sin, either while remaining in their bodies or being divested of them, have been cleansed, as we have said above, are received immediately into heaven. (Council of Lyon, 1274)
The idea of purification has been the foundation for the idea of Purgatory from the beginning, even back to the OT book of Maccabees, for instance.
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I never said it didn’t exist before. However, purgatory as temporal punishment is certainly a medievalist doctrinal innovation having no mention in any of the seven councils up to Nicea II. Apart from anything else, the doctrine has very interesting Christological implications.
 
Indifferently said:
\purgatory as temporal punishment is certainly a medievalist doctrinal innovation
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This is also not quite accurate whether or not there was specifically a “council” that addressed this before Lyon. :o For instance, 1 Cor. 3:10-15 itself speaks of a “fire” through which the soul is saved. And it is a Catholic interpretation to understand the soul to be purified by these fires, subjected to these fires of the afterlife, and that these fires are a form of punishment or suffering. For example:*[Man,] after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire. (Gregory of Nyssa, [aka Concerning Those Who Have Died], ca. 382)

If someone has the right faith but leads a wicked life, his faith will not protect him from punishment, because his work will be burned up. A man in gold armor will pass through a river of fire and come out shining all the more brightly, but a man who passes through it with hay will lose it all and destroy himself besides. (St. John Chrysostom, commentary on First Corinthians 9.5, ca 395 AD) [notice that the first man he describes is punished, yet is distinct from the third man who is entirely destroyed]

‘Lord, rebuke me not in Your indignation, nor correct me in Your anger’ (Ps 38:1)…In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire…for it is said: ‘He shall be saved, but as if by fire’ (1 Cor 3:15). And because it is said that he shall be saved, little is thought of that fire. Yet plainly, though we be saved by fire, that fire will be more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life." (Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms 38.2, ca 392)*It’s important to remember, as you elude, that every time an ECF refered to the “punishments” or “suffering” of purgatory, it was always to refer to the soul being purified or cleansed—and as I pointed out, that has always been the essence of the understanding of purgatory. The punishments should be understood as the means of purification, which was always their point.

I’m not sure which of today’s “fashions” you mean that refers to some general purification only, but that has always been essential to the doctrine, which doesn’t make is a new fashion, which is my point.
 
Thanks for all of this information everyone is posting…it’s good stuff!
 
Please watch:

It’s just a link I wanted to share, top quality debate I thought; edifying.
8 * 10 minutes

youtube.com/watch?v=XpbihA1vGD8

Please add your comments if you have thoughts to support or fill into the debate.
 
jinc1019 said:
If it isn’t “earning points for salvation,” how does that differ from the Protestant view? It seems very similar.
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For Protestants “works” are only for extra “rewards” in heaven not salvation

That is why you will often hear a Protestant say you can’t lose your salvation only your rewards.
The verse Catholics use for purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15, they use for the loss of their rewards but not salvation which is guaranteed through faith alone.
 
Third_Day said:
For Protestants “works” are only for extra “rewards” in heaven not salvation
That is why you will often hear a Protestant say you can’t lose your salvation only your rewards.
The verse Catholics use for purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15, they use for the loss of their rewards but not salvation which is guaranteed through faith alone.
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Oh, goodness no! This implies a self-centered “I do this to get that” approach, unless I am misunderstanding you. The only love involved in what you describe seems to be self-love. And that is not the reason to do good works. We do good works out of the new obedience, a joyful thanksgiving to God for all He has done for us through Christ our Savior, and because of our love for our fellowman.

Jon
 
I did not watch the entire video - frankly I was not impressed with the opening 5 minutes.

Such “debates” tend to be too broken up and often times wind up arguing past one another and the emphasis it too often on “scoring points” against the others position.
Instead of debating differences we would be so much further ahead by discussing similarities as well as differences…

AND…

For this simple Christian…I suggest that I don’t CARE about all of the details, definitions order, levels, and sequences of the matter.
Most of it is just “wheel spinning” and academic…Even the great Thomas Aquinas, after all of the wonderful work and writing he did said it was all just so much “straw”.

Bottom line???

Christ called me home. He loves me and I love Him. Now - what do I do with that Love?
The only answer is - I Live it…and so should we all.
Now my living it is imperfect to be sure…but that is where “perseverance” comes in.

As to all the rest…It’s details…and the old saying “the devil is in the details” holds true. Debates (as opposed to discussions) on things like justification only proves that in my mind.

Peace
James
 
jinc1019 said:
Can someone, in plain language, explain the difference between Catholics and Protestants on justification and grace? Thanks in advance!
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Here is the chief distinction betwen the Catholic and the orthodox Lutheran conceptions of justification. Man is not purely passive under the action of grace like some lifeless stone or log. As the Church conceives original sin, the natural religious and moral endowment of man was not destroyed by that sin so that as the Lutheran “Formula of Concord” expresses it “no spark of spiritual power was left him for the knowledge of truth and accomplishment of good.”

Man’s religious and moral faculties are not impaired in their natural substance, but weakened in their operation, inasmuch as original sin deflects them from their supernatural course and gives them therefore a false direction. The efffect of grace, as the upsurging of the eternal love within him, is to bring a man’s faculties back again into their original course, and so to disengage them completely and set them free.

Therefore grace is not merely compassionate mercy, nor is it like some brilliant cloak of gold thrown over a human corpse. On the contrary the Church conceives of it as a vital force, which awakens and summons the powers of man’s soul, understanding, will and feeling, inspires them with a new love, with a new fear of God and His judgments, with a yearning for transcendent holiness and infinite goodness.

The special quality of the Catholic doctrine of justification, the dynamic character of the Church’s conception, God does not merely forgive" At the same He forgives He sanctifies!
 
=jinc1019;10521820]Can someone, in plain language, explain the difference between Catholics and Protestants on justification and grace? Thanks in advance!
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  1. The first issue is that Protestants themselves are not in complete agreement.
If one Prudently accepts, understands and APPLIES the** ''One Infallible rule for RIGHT [a singular thing] understanding of the bible"**; a correct understanding IS attainable. When the entire bible; not just culled parts are used.

caps for emphasis only:
NEVER EVER, CAN MAY OR DOES ONE PASSAGE, VERSE, OR TEACHING MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER.

Such a possibility would make the bile worthless for learning or teaching The Faith.
  1. Because God is “One” there can logically be only One set of Faith beliefs. God who is Perfect cannot hold contradictory views on the same isues. NOR can or did God wait for Protrstants to make His singular TRUTHS known. Also IMPOSSIBLE.
  2. Space permitting I can prove biblically w/o any reasonable DOUBT that Christ intended and accomplised exactly what he WILLED.
One God; Faith and Church. See. Eph.4; 4-8 for a precisely clear proof of thi fact.
  1. Every passage for Faith Alone; OSAS ect can and is factually disporven by othr pasages. here are a few examples:
1st. Tim. 6: 9-12 “For they that will become rich, fall into temptation, and into the snare of the devil, and into many unprofitable and hurtful desires, which drown men into destruction and perdition. For the desire of money is the root of all evils; which some coveting have erred from the faith, and have entangled themselves in many sorrows. “But thou, O man of God, fly [avoid] these things: and pursue justice, godliness, faith, charity, patience, mildness. Fight the good fight of faith: lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses”

Psalm 50:3 “Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy. And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity”

Psalm 9:9 “And he shall judge the world in equity, he shall judge the people in justice”

Psalms 95:13 “Before the face of the Lord, because he cometh: because he cometh to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with justice, and the people with his truth.”

[Matthew 19:16-17] “And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

“And a high priest over the house of God: [SINGULAR] Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water. [BAPTIZED] Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised), And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. A man making void the law of Moses, * dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments*, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people”

And there is a great deal more.

I have never seen evidence from any Protestant that justifies their fabrication of a set of faith believes not only contrary to God’s own but directly competiting with them.🤷

Thanks for asking,
pat/PJM
 
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