Protestants: What are the "Basics" that all Non-Catholic Christians agree on? And who determines what the "basics" are?

[CopticChristian]

I’m sure some atheists look at Catholics and wonder the same thing.

It is not intelligence that allows you to believe that Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens, or in the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves of bread and fish.
It eventually comes down to faith, no matter how learned you are.

True Light,

Where do you find any Protestant posting that there is dissention concerning Jesus ascending into heaven, the miracle of the loaves and fish. It is about things like how it is we are able to know that the story from whence this story came is based on a reliable source we call Scripture. This is not totally a matter of Faith.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I have taken Protestant Pastors to the library to see the Early Church writings. I have discussed with Protestant Pastors these things. I challenge you to look and find any “Protestant” website, church information, or any writing that does diservice to cause those that read to investigate further.
.

Dear CopticChristian----

I’m not sure if I’m understanding what you’re asking for in this last sentence. Do you mean, “what Protestant websites feature the Early Church Fathers?” The main ones that see alot of use would be ccel.org and earlychristianwritings.com-- I believe both are put up by Protestants, and extensive in what they cover, plus easy to use.

As far as older books in print, Bruce Shelley’s Church History in Plain Language has been a best seller among ordinary lay Protestants for a long time. I read Shelley’s All the Saints Adore Thee
many years ago, featuring saints ancient and modern in an introductory/devotional type format, but not his church history book. However, that book can’t be too"skewed" because the poster Cat here at CAF said the book was instrumental in her conversion to Catholicism.

As for me, I am being completely honest in saying that I was encouraged to delve into the ECF’s even while in high school—and no one fed me anti-Catholic stuff to skew my understanding of what I was reading.

Additionally, again as a teenager, I remember being impacted by C.S. Lewis’ essay “On the Reading of Old Books”, wherein he used an image I still remember nearly 30 years later, of how reading old Christian books can raise the reader up out being solely connected yo his own century, up onto an ancient mighty aqueduct that spans the ages, still flowing with the water of life.

 

[TrueLight]

True Light,

Where do you find any Protestant posting that there is dissention concerning Jesus ascending into heaven, the miracle of the loaves and fish. It is about things like how it is we are able to know that the story from whence this story came is based on a reliable source we call Scripture. This is not totally a matter of Faith.

You have to have faith that the accounts in scripture occurred just as scripture says it did.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Hmm, I see it’s beast-feeding time (a few horses and two imperious barn cats) then time for bed. I’ll try to get to my questions for you tomorrow, CopticChristian. Peace to all.

 

[CopticChristian]

Dear CopticChristian----

I’m not sure if I’m understanding what you’re asking for in this last sentence. Do you mean, “what Protestant websites feature the Early Church Fathers?” The main ones that see alot of use would be ccel.org and earlychristianwritings.com-- I believe both are put up by Protestants, and extensive in what they cover, plus easy to use.

As far as older books in print, Bruce Shelley’s Church History in Plain Language has been a best seller among ordinary lay Protestants for a long time. I read Shelley’s All the Saints Adore Thee
many years ago, featuring saints ancient and modern in an introductory/devotional type format, but not his church history book. However, that book can’t be too"skewed" because the poster Cat here at CAF said the book was instrumental in her conversion to Catholicism.

As for me, I am being completely honest in saying that I was encouraged to delve into the ECF’s even while in high school—and no one fed me anti-Catholic stuff to skew my understanding of what I was reading.

Additionally, again as a teenager, I remember being impacted by C.S. Lewis’ essay “On the Reading of Old Books”, wherein he used an image I still remember nearly 30 years later, of how reading old Christian books can raise the reader up out being solely connected yo his own century, up onto an ancient mighty aqueduct that spans the ages, still flowing with the water of life.

There is as you know no such thing as a Protestant Church that would parallel the Vatican or any other institution for that matter. There are denominational websites however even those are fragmented by dissention. For the most part their are individual Church sites, ministry sites etc that gloss over history. If you like I will produce a few however you know what I am talking about.

 

[PRmerger]

Excellent site. It says it better than I can.

Might I observe that this is an intellectually honest Catholic site.

So…

(1) The same source that claims there are 33,000 Protestant Denominations also claims there are 242 Catholic Denominations.
(2) Catholics reject that there are 242 Catholic denominations.
(3) By rejecting this claim, they are rejecting the process and definitions that the authors use in arriving at 242 Catholic denominations.
(4) The authors use the same definitions and processes to arrive at 33,000 denominations.
(5) Therefore intellectually honest Catholics must reject the 33,0000 Protestant denomination figure on the basis of rejecting the processes and definitions used to arrive at this figure because the same processes and definitions are used to arrive at 242 Catholic Denominations.

It is good to see that there are some intellectually honest Catholic sources that do not quote figures that are arrived at using processes and definitions they reject.

Anyway, I do not intend to participate further in this thread. But just to repeat that in my mind anyone who persists in using the 33,000 figure is just not being serious and intellectually honest and probably should just be ignored by myself.

AmateurPianist, I promise, witnessed by the many readers on this forum, to never use the 33,000 figure again**, if this is such a source of contention to you.

I do not want to be the reason that you are recusant to Catholic apologetics. It is important that you stay on this forum and discuss.

Just like I don’t want to be the reason someone sniffs, “Well, I used to be Catholic but I went to Mass one day and PRmerger ignored me and that really ticked me off. Now I’m a SDA”…

So if it will bring you back into discussion, I promise not to use 33,000.

**(NB: It’s actually been quite a while since I cited that statistic. For the past few years I’ve really only quoted “tens of thousands” to be quite clear that I am not referring to this erroneous study.)

 

[AmateurPianist]

Fair enough.

As I’ve stated, I feel that I am being overly generous in claiming that there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations.

There are tens of thousands of Christian denominations in my large metropolitan area alone. Each of these denominations disagreeing doctrinally with the other ones.

So you’ll have to forgive me for being bemused by the 30,000 statistic. In my opinion, that’s a kind and generous number being offered by Catholics.

Well I would like to see your phonebook and what you consider as a denomination (yeah I got back in). Considering the source that claims 33,000 denominations says there are 6,000 denominations in the US. So it seems to me that is your ceiling here.

After that you would have to look at the individual 6000 groups and figure out how many are Protestant versus Restorationalist. A birds eye view of the source that claimed 6000 in the US suggests all of the marginal and many of the independent would be restorationalist (what the Catholic church considers not Christian like LDS). But I have neither time or energy to do this.

Anyway it seems to me if I were Catholic, this whole number of Protestant denominations would be a huge rabbit trail that I would just refuse to go down. It would seem to me the better number would be 300 theological traditions…since it is these that are actually in conflict with each other theologically. In the end your argument is the same whether the number is 300 or 3000. And using the conservative figure of traditions means you don’t need to go down this rabbit hole which in the end is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. Anyway, if I were Catholic that is what I would do.

 

[Cat]

Okay. You come from one of the high church denominations. It may be that there is more emphasis on theological study in those denominations. I know what those terms mean now, but not when I was a practicing protestant.

I know from my experience that most folks did not study theology except for seminarians or those who took a real interest and those were few.

Most of the books I read were on deepening one’s spiritual life and how to evangelize. Any Apologetics books I read were Protestant in nature.

We believed in the Virgin birth. Mary was indeed the mother of Jesus who was God.
Did we talk about the Theotokos? Not in those terms. The focus was on Christ. It is not important to talk about the Theotokos when she is considered to be a sinner. Yes, she is called called blessed because God chose her. However, there is no communion of saints, in Evangelical beliefs, so the focus on Mary is just not there.

We understood this.

I think I believed both, based on various verses, but it wasn’t something debated because I had no concept of the Eastern churches and honestly, when you are out on the street Evangelizing, people are not asking you about the Filioque.

Definitely believed in the Trinity.

I had no concept of the development of doctrine. The general belief was this:

• Early Christians from Acts until you go to the Catholic Church
• The CC apostatized and took control of Christianity and caused many abuses, idolatry, etc
• The Protestant Reformation was inspired and supported by God. The reformation brought back the early church

Did Jesus abandon his church? No. The church went through a period of darkness and but Jesus wasd always there.

Yes, I thought they were early Christians. I didn’t read about the early church fathers, so I had no idea when Christians started to call themselves Catholic.

I thought the martyrs were again, generic Christians.

I know this seems like a whole lot of ignorance but my focus was on knowing what the Bible says, avoiding sin and maintaining my relationship with Christ. Everything else was just butter.

I would just like to say that TrueLight is summarizing exactly what my experience as an evangelical was. We could have been born and raised in the same church! Her summary of church history is exactly what I (and my husband, too) learned growing up.

I grew up in one of the “premier” evangelical churches in the U.S. Several world-respected evangelical leaders have come out of my childhood church. I would consider my experience (and True Light’s experience) in the evangelical church typical of the majority of evangelical Protestant Christians in the U.S.

As True Light has stated so well–we just didn’t think about Christianity in terms of Latin or Greek words. The pastors and seminarians used Greek when preaching from the Bible, but only to make things clear to us. Most of our books and classes were about personal holiness and growing in our relationship with Jesus Christ.

There is a lot of concern in evangelical circles today about the lack of knowledge of doctrine among evangelical Christians. So many evangelicals concentrate on their “relationship with Jesus,” but have no knowledge of systematic theology, the Old Testament, their own church history, their church doctrine, etc. So they are very “fragile” in their beliefs, and it’s easy for them to fall away from the faith–they have no “roots.”

 

[Cat]

Well I would like to see your phonebook and what you consider as a denomination (yeah I got back in). Considering the source that claims 33,000 denominations says there are 6,000 denominations in the US. So it seems to me that is your ceiling here.

After that you would have to look at the individual 6000 groups and figure out how many are Protestant versus Restorationalist. A birds eye view of the source that claimed 6000 in the US suggests all of the marginal and many of the independent would be restorationalist (what the Catholic church considers not Christian like LDS). But I have neither time or energy to do this.

Anyway it seems to me if I were Catholic, this whole number of Protestant denominations would be a huge rabbit trail that I would just refuse to go down. It would seem to me the better number would be 300 theological traditions…since it is these that are actually in conflict with each other theologically. In the end your argument is the same whether the number is 300 or 3000. And using the conservative figure of traditions means you don’t need to go down this rabbit hole which in the end is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. Anyway, if I were Catholic that is what I would do.

My husband and I would agree with so much of what you are saying. We came across the 33,000 denoms number early in our conversion process, and my husband began investigating it. His conclusion is that it is spurious and that Catholics would be wise to reject this very divisive and questionable figure, and instead, look for similiarities among Protestants and their churches.

The 33,000 number was arrived at because Barrett used a loosey-goosey definition of “denomination” that uses “nationality” as a criteria for separating denominations.

That’s how he arrived at 242 Catholic denominations. Each of these denominations is actually the Catholic Church in a different country. But as we know, the Catholic Church in each country is still in union with Rome. So it is false to say that the Catholic Church in the U.S. is a different denomination than the Catholic Church in England or Canada or Kenya. They are all the same denomination.

If the man (Barrett) can make this false claim about the Catholic Church, then why would you believe him when he makes the same claim about the Protestant churches?

The problem with a false witness is that it is hard to trust them! Once someone has broken trust, it’s hard to believe anything they say. Do you really think that Barrett is trustworthy, since he makes the claim that each Catholic Church in each nation is a separate denomination?

I think it is obvious that we have to reject his statistics, even though it sure is fun for Catholics to walk around claiming that there are 33,000 (and growing) Protestant denominations! But it’s not true, so I would suggest that Catholics stop claiming it.

Here’s another example of how Barrett uses a loosey-goosey definition of “denomination.”

Another criteria that Barrett used to define “denomination” is the “governing body” of each church. An example of this would be the Christian and Missionary Alliance (C & MA) denomination. Barrett defined the United States C & MA and the Canadian C& MA as two separate denominations.

Yes, it is true that these two churches have different “governments.” The C & MA in Canada has its own “Board”, collects its own monies, sends its own missionaries, etc. and it does not have to get approval for its actions from the U.S. C & MA or from any other C & MA church in any country. All of the C & MAs in each nation are independent of each other when it comes to governing their churches.

But this is for practical reasons, (subsidiarity) and has NOTHING to do with the beliefs, doctrines, or basic teachings of the C & MA!!! The U.S. and the Canadian C & MA, as well as the C & MA in all the other countries where it is present, teach exactly the same Gospel and hold exactly the same doctrines!

There may be different “practices” in the various nations in C & MA churches. But just because one church uses piano and another church uses drums and still another church uses no instruments does NOT mean that these churches are separate denominations!

Again, I state that Barrett’s claims are based on his own loose definition of denomination, and that this definition is not a good definition for assigning churches into denominations. I state that Catholics should reject Barrett’s stats as spurious, and instead, use a more general classification of Protestant churches into various streams or groups with common belief systems. There are quite a few of these classification systems, and each Catholic can select the one that they feel is most useful.

 

[PRmerger]

Well I would like to see your phonebook and what you consider as a denomination (yeah I got back in). Considering the source that claims 33,000 denominations says there are 6,000 denominations in the US. So it seems to me that is your ceiling here.

After that you would have to look at the individual 6000 groups and figure out how many are Protestant versus Restorationalist. A birds eye view of the source that claimed 6000 in the US suggests all of the marginal and many of the independent would be restorationalist (what the Catholic church considers not Christian like LDS). But I have neither time or energy to do this.

Anyway it seems to me if I were Catholic, this whole number of Protestant denominations would be a huge rabbit trail that I would just refuse to go down. It would seem to me the better number would be 300 theological traditions…since it is these that are actually in conflict with each other theologically. In the end your argument is the same whether the number is 300 or 3000. And using the conservative figure of traditions means you don’t need to go down this rabbit hole which in the end is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. Anyway, if I were Catholic that is what I would do.

Fair enough.

300 theological traditions it is.

Can you provide a source for this?

 

[wondrousgnat]

Repeating an earlier post I made. What is a denomination? I had heard that there are 33,000 but I could not name 20. I live not far from Willowcreek. They emphatically state they are not a denomination. But they have tens of thousands of members plus satellite churches. How does that make them not?
A lot of new churches have been built near me few claiming to be denominational (curiously man have “Community” in their name). Then there are the store fron churches. I know one couple whose “church” is meeting with three other couples in someone’s home. Then there is the guy I know who is of the me and Jesus alone variet and states that his church is Sunday morning at the counter of the restauarant.
So then what is and what is not a denomination.

I have also visited a few churches where there is no altar and no cross. And the pastors delivered their sermons in blue jeans and flannel shirts. Heavy emphasis on the music which often sends a wishy-washy message.

 

[PRmerger]

Repeating an earlier post I made. What is a denomination? I had heard that there are 33,000 but I could not name 20. I live not far from Willowcreek. They emphatically state they are not a denomination. But they have tens of thousands of members plus satellite churches. How does that make them not?
A lot of new churches have been built near me few claiming to be denominational (curiously man have “Community” in their name). Then there are the store fron churches. I know one couple whose “church” is meeting with three other couples in someone’s home. Then there is the guy I know who is of the me and Jesus alone variet and states that his church is Sunday morning at the counter of the restauarant.
So then what is and what is not a denomination.

I have also visited a few churches where there is no altar and no cross. And the pastors delivered their sermons in blue jeans and flannel shirts. Heavy emphasis on the music which often sends a wishy-washy message.

A denomination is a community of believers with a distinct set of beliefs. They will differ from other communities of believers on doctrine/practice.

See this (nonexhaustive) list of things that have separated one group from another, inciting a person to separate from his denomination and start another:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

 

[AmateurPianist]

If the man (Barrett) can make this false claim about the Catholic Church, then why would you believe him when he makes the same claim about the Protestant churches?

I wouldn’t say that it is a false claim necessarily. Just that the processes and definitions he uses leads to that result. I think we both agree that we disagree with his definitions (that was a klugy sentence).

 

[AmateurPianist]

Fair enough.

300 theological traditions it is.

Can you provide a source for this?

The source is Barrett, but I found it here.

As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)

 

[CopticChristian]

The source is Barrett, but I found it here.

I do not know the answer to the number and that fact that there are so many is a fact.

adherents.com/

This website is a categorical evaluation of “adherents”

If you scroll down about 1/4 of the page you will see A-Z

At the bottom of the page you will see the groups and numbers

43,940 adherent records.
4,351 groups.

It includes Protestant, Catholic, Jew etc and not necessarily just Protestant groups however you can see that among Protestant groups there is division upon division…

Take a look at the list of Baptists…etc

This is just information for the discussion.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I do not know the answer to the number and that fact that there are so many is a fact.

adherents.com/

This website is a categorical evaluation of “adherents”

If you scroll down about 1/4 of the page you will see A-Z

At the bottom of the page you will see the groups and numbers

43,940 adherent records.
4,351 groups.

It includes Protestant, Catholic, Jew etc and not necessarily just Protestant groups however you can see that among Protestant groups there is division upon division…

Take a look at the list of Baptists…etc

This is just information for the discussion.

I don’t have time to look at that in depth…but whatever methodology they are using also produces multiple Catholic groups.

 

[PRmerger]

The source is Barrett, but I found it here.

Okay. So I will use the same source, Barrett, to say that there are 300 theological traditions, that says that there are 33,000 Christian denominations?

That makes no sense to me–you’re citing a source (Barrett) that you say is suspect for its statistical analysis concluding there’s over 33,000 Christian denominations, but accepting as true the 300 theological traditions.

Okay.

I am bemused and confused and amused, but I won’t belabor the point.

*300 theological traditions it is.

*Based on a source that also concludes there are 33,000 Christian denominations.

 

[Protector]

Cat;8471398] My husband and I would agree with so much of what you are saying. We came across the 33,000 denoms number early in our conversion process, and my husband began investigating it. **His conclusion is that it is spurious and that Catholics would be wise to reject this very divisive and questionable figure, and instead, look for similiarities among Protestants and their churches. **

Hi Cat, and Hubbie. Couldn’t agree more with the above as you will see from my post #99 in this thread. Well it was observed by Pastor Robert Thieme Jnr (Col. Ret. USAF), “Religion is the Devil’s Ace Trump!” He maintained that Christianity was not a religion, it was a relationship with God - a sentiment with which I agree.

Protector.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Hi Cat, and Hubbie. Couldn’t agree more with the above as you will see from my post #99 in this thread. Well it was observed by Pastor Robert Thieme Jnr (Col. Ret. USAF), “Religion is the Devil’s Ace Trump!” He maintained that Christianity was not a religion, it was a relationship with God - a sentiment with which I agree.

Protector.

It’s both actually, it’s a religion in which we have a relationship with God.

James 1:26, 27:
And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world.

 

[CopticChristian]

You have to have faith that the accounts in scripture occurred just as scripture says it did.

That may be your view. My view is sometimes yes and other times no.