Protestants, What Do You Make Of Romans 2:5-13?

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"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works. To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, BUT THE DOERS of the Law who will be justified."

Judgment, according to St. Paul in his quintessential treatise on salvation theology, his letter to the Romans, is according to works, just as Christ also explicitly taught.
 
Still waiting Protestants for your response, :coffeeread:
 
"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works. To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, BUT THE DOERS of the Law who will be justified."

Judgment, according to St. Paul in his quintessential treatise on salvation theology, his letter to the Romans, is according to works, just as Christ also explicitly taught.
And, of course, in Romans 3:28 Paul also says we are justified by faith. Now is this a contridiction? No, because good works can only come as a result of faith. Works are the fruits of faith.
Where there are no good works, there is only a dead faith.

Here is what the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification says:
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. **Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.**11]
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
In Romans 2 He calls us to the good works our justification by grace through faith obligates us to do.

Jon
 
I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

Paul tells us that God will reward those who by “**patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality” **with eternal life.He says this in reference to **“doing the law”.

**How do we understand this?Well, In Romans 1 and 2, Paul is writing about the general state of man. He discusses this in terms of Jew and Gentile. His conclusion is that, as regards their standing before God, there is no difference except that the Jew has the written Law while the Gentile has a law “written on his heart (2:15)”. He is talking about the state of people generally, ante crucis. He even says that this law will be the standard by which God will judge them. This forms the basis for his saying that “doing the law” results in eternal life.

In Chapter 3, Paul sums everything up by saying:“Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin” (3:9). This is where he brings together a few Old Testament passages to underline the pervasive nature of sin.

He doesn’t leave us there though, a short while later he says, “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” (3:21-24)

So, is he contradicting himself? In chapter two he says men are justified by “doing the law”, in chapter three he says that they are justified apart from law, and through faith in Jesus Christ, freely by grace.

No, Paul is sketching a trajectory, describing the state of people without Christ, under the law (whether written on paper or upon hearts), concluding that they are without excuse, lost and sinful. That appears to be his point. Without Christ, obedience to the law is mans only avenue to the grace and favor of God. He also has a lot to say later about the efficiency and use of the law in this regard, saying that it was given to show us our sin. This is the same thing as saying that it cannot save.

We are grateful that we are not left there, but that we are told that we are justified apart from works, by grace through faith.

The “but now” he starts with is very significant. There is a very definite then and now progression.
 
“For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, BUT THE DOERS of the Law who will be justified.”

Judgment, according to St. Paul in his quintessential treatise on salvation theology, his letter to the Romans, is according to works, just as Christ also explicitly taught.
When I was a ~protestant (with very limited theology) I thought that noone was really capable of keeping the law perfectly, but that Jesus kept and fulfilled the law for us. The ‘doers of the law’ who keep the law perfectly so as to be ‘justified’ in the above verse is…none but Jesus.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
My view for your judgement concerning Romans 2:5 and following verses.

Bear in mind that my views are based on the work God (Top down)is performing in the salvation of mankind not normly seen via the verse quoted.

That is not to say that is is misinterpretation, but that the view of those verses, as well as many others, are viewed from the top down verses the bottom up.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
…“after thy hardness and impenitent heart”…is in referance to the hardness of the Jewish people who held to the instructions of Moses.Ref: Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Was not Jesus accused of blasphemy?
Ref: Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
To hold to those words, is to be hard and with an impenitent heart, that shall be true to against that day of judgment.

That day, of judgment was when their hardness and impenitent heart shall be forgiven is the day Jesus was judged for the sins of the world, praying the Father, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Jesus being King of the Jews will render unto them "His Deeds, meaning that Jesus’ righteouness is rendered to all mankind consistant with this verse: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:“To them” who held to their belief, via Moses instructions, in well seeking glory and honor and immortality, are forgiven.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, For those of them who yet practiced unrighteousness, are not exempt from forgiveness, but are given to anguish in their tribulations as in verse 9, to not only the Jew but to everybody else as well. Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

And the opposite for both Jew and everybody else.Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
And here then is the key that God loves both Jew and Gentile and His forgiveness extended to both.Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Here are both Jew and Gentile included as covered by the blood of Christ whether under the law or not.Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And the verse in question concerning justification of works. The Jews were the doers of the law while the Gentile were hears only and both judged with or without the law as both having sin.:Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So, in total, Jesus was judged, condemned for both the doers of the law and the hears of the law as a universal love of God to wards His creation as in the next verse concludes:Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Peace>>>AJ
 
Still waiting for OTCA to comment.
🍿
Hi Steadfast… 👋
**1Corinthians 15:10
“But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.” (see also 1Cor. 15:58; Gal. 5:6, 6:7-9).
St. Paul again regards faith and the human cooperation of works (labor) as two sides of the same coin, both proceeding from grace. Elsewhere, the apostle writes of the “works of faith” and related concepts (1Thess. 1:3; 2Thess. 1:11; Titus 1:15-16).
Faith and works are not at all incompatible in all these Pauline passages.
Salvation is described as a struggle, a process, a goal—not merely an abstract, past, instantaneous event.
As we labor faithfully as Jesus’ Disciples, we store up corresponding rewards (1 Cor. 3:8 1Tim 6:18-19): the idea of merit (which most Protestants deny).
It is by virtue of our union with our Lord Jesus Christ that our actions–worthless in and of themselves—become meritorious.
Protestants have tended to read Paul through the lens of Luther’s experience.
Is it not evident in St. James Gospel?
James 1:22–“But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”

James 2:14-26–"What does it profit my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works IS DEAD. Etc…James goes on to say “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
St. Paul does not contradict St. James as Luther thought, since he uses the word faith in the broader sense of a person’s complete allegiance to God with both mind and will. **
 
1Corinthians 15:10
“But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.” (see also 1Cor. 15:58; Gal. 5:6, 6:7-9).
St. Paul again regards faith and the human cooperation of works (labor) as two sides of the same coin, both proceeding from grace.
No, here Paul is asserting his apostolic bona fides as can be seen from verse 9 and 11. the “them” he refers to are other apostles.

This passage has nothing to do with salvation or justification.
Elsewhere, the apostle writes of the “works of faith” and related concepts (1Thess. 1:3; 2Thess. 1:11; Titus 1:15-16).
Faith and works are not at all incompatible in all these Pauline passages.
I never said it was and no Protestant believes they are incompatible.

Standard Protestant belief is that faith does works. The famous quote from Luther is “I believe in faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.”

What Paul says in 1 Thess 1:3 says it perfectly: “work produced by faith” the same is true for 2 Thess. 1:11 and Titus 1:15-16.

In each case the idea is that faith issues in good works which is exactly what we believe.

What none of these passages say, though, is that good works form any part of the basis for our standing before God now that Christ has come and satisfied the justice of God perfectly and born the price for our transgressions.
Salvation is described as a struggle, a process, a goal—not merely an abstract, past, instantaneous event.
And so it is. Many people conflate justification and salvation but when we get into debate we should be careful to make distinctions:

While it is true that “without faith we cannot please God” and that faith is the very ground of our salvation; salvation as a whole concept encompasses everything from election to glory, including good works.

But these works are the proof of our standing before God which, founded in faith, is the basis for our salvation.

Again then, no one will disagree with you that the Christian life is a struggle against sin, that it is daily being conformed to the image of Christ (note that we are being conformed, not that we do the conforming) and that as believers, we do the works God has prepared beforehand for us to do.

What we disagree about is that these works add anything to the finished work of Christ in the establishment of our standing before God.

They do not save us but they are part of the process.
** As we labor faithfully as Jesus’ Disciples, we store up corresponding rewards (1 Cor. 3:8 1Tim 6:18-19): the idea of merit (which most Protestants deny).**
1 Cor. 3:8 refers to church planting and evangelism not to the merit of of works.

But to your basic idea, I think most Protestants understand there to be rewards in heaven based upon practical holiness. There may not be a lot of consensus about them but we all believe in them.

What this does not mean though, is that these works merit salvation itself. Thus Jesus speaks of the least and the greatest in His Kingdom. They are still in His Kingdom.
** It is by virtue of our union with our Lord Jesus Christ that our actions–worthless in and of themselves—become meritorious.**
You have not demonstrated this if by it you mean that they merit salvation or have anything to do with our standing before God.
** Protestants have tended to read Paul through the lens of Luther’s experience.**
Perhaps, but so far I do not see that he isn’t a better guide than you and I know he is a better guide than your church. I have seen what they have to say.
** Is it not evident in St. James Gospel?
James 1:22–“But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”**
Indeed, and may we all be doers of the word.
James 2:14-26–"What does it profit my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works IS DEAD. Etc…James goes on to say "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
This is a much debated passage. Does James contradict Paul?

No, they are talking about two different things.

In short James is saying exactly what Paul is saying (and what Luther and I say as well):

Good works are the proof of saving faith; i.e. they justify it.

When he says “you see that a man is justified” it is clear that he is not talking about justification before God since he draws no such inference. He never tries to show such a connection. He was writing to combat license and draws together faith and works, the latter as the evidence and product of the former.
** St. Paul does not contradict St. James as Luther thought, since he uses the word faith in the broader sense of a person’s complete allegiance to God with both mind and will. **
You’re right. He does not contradict Paul, but you misunderstand why this is so. Both apostles mean the same thing by faith and they mean the same thing by works, where they differ is in their use of the word “justify”.

Where Paul uses it to describe our standing before God in Christ, James is using it in reference to the faith our works justify or prove.

Theologians speak of the probative and soteriological uses of the word because, as I am sure you realize, context has a lot to do with how words are used and the nuances they reveal.
 
First I offered an analysis of your OP.

You chose to respond not to my post but with a post of your own with a whole new set of “proof texts”. I dealt with them too.

I hope we can return now to your original post and that you will do me the honor of actually reading my analysis and dealing with it rather than just regurgitating more misunderstandings about the bible.

Its more than just a little insulting to have done a lot of work and have it ignored. It shows what I have always suspected of you, OTCA: your tone may have softened, but you’re no less uninterested in dialog and interaction than you ever were.
 
Leaving out the works of Jesus in the equation means what?

Would our works then merit judgment for salvation?

What would be the hope?

What is the difference between the works of Jesus and the works of mankind?

If we can understand the difference, we shall know what our works represent in light of Jesus’ works.

Peace>>>AJ
 
First I offered an analysis of your OP.

You chose to respond not to my post but with a post of your own with a whole new set of “proof texts”. I dealt with them too.

I hope we can return now to your original post and that you will do me the honor of actually reading my analysis and dealing with it rather than just regurgitating more misunderstandings about the bible.

Its more than just a little insulting to have done a lot of work and have it ignored. It shows what I have always suspected of you, OTCA: your tone may have softened, but you’re no less uninterested in dialog and interaction than you ever were.
Steadfast, I am not ignoring you. I haven’t been feelin well. I will get back to you. I promise. 😦
 
And, of course, in Romans 3:28 Paul also says we are justified by faith. Now is this a contridiction? No, because good works can only come as a result of faith. Works are the fruits of faith.
Where there are no good works, there is only a dead faith.

Here is what the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification says:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
In Romans 2 He calls us to the good works our justification by grace through faith obligates us to do.

Jon
Exactly! It’s a shame that we have to keep showing this in a perspective that respects the WHOLE Bible and not just parts of it that will always show God to be simply an angry judge which he is not.
 
I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

Paul tells us that God will reward those who by “**patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality” **with eternal life.He says this in reference to **“doing the law”.

**How do we understand this?Well, In Romans 1 and 2, Paul is writing about the general state of man. He discusses this in terms of Jew and Gentile. His conclusion is that, as regards their standing before God, there is no difference except that the Jew has the written Law while the Gentile has a law “written on his heart (2:15)”. He is talking about the state of people generally, ante crucis. He even says that this law will be the standard by which God will judge them. This forms the basis for his saying that “doing the law” results in eternal life.

In Chapter 3, Paul sums everything up by saying:“Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin” (3:9). This is where he brings together a few Old Testament passages to underline the pervasive nature of sin.

He doesn’t leave us there though, a short while later he says, “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” (3:21-24)

So, is he contradicting himself? In chapter two he says men are justified by “doing the law”, in chapter three he says that they are justified apart from law, and through faith in Jesus Christ, freely by grace.

No, Paul is sketching a trajectory, describing the state of people without Christ, under the law (whether written on paper or upon hearts), concluding that they are without excuse, lost and sinful. That appears to be his point. Without Christ, obedience to the law is mans only avenue to the grace and favor of God. He also has a lot to say later about the efficiency and use of the law in this regard, saying that it was given to show us our sin. This is the same thing as saying that it cannot save.

We are grateful that we are not left there, but that we are told that we are justified apart from works, by grace through faith.

The “but now” he starts with is very significant. There is a very definite then and now progression.
I understand your point, but Paul clearly says that those who seek good will inherit eternal life. He does not say that those who labor for glory and honor will fall short. This is why I think that it applies to the saved, rather than the unsaved.
 
What we disagree about is that these works add anything to the finished work of Christ in the establishment of our standing before God.
I don’t think so, Steadfast. If you follow the link in post 3, I think you will find that what you seem to think the Catholic Church teaches is not, in fact, what is taught.
Code:
I have seen what they have to say.
Perhaps not?

Steadfast, please remember there are a lot of other folks reading and appreciating you posts. If the person to whom they are directed does not seem to respond, please realize that there are many others benefitting, and your time is never wasted. 👍
 
**Justification, according to Catholicism, is a true eradication of sin, a supernatural infusion of grace, and a renewal of the inner man.
The Catholic church holds that true faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works, without which spiritual growth is impossible. In this way, good works are necessary for salvation, and sanctification is not seperated from justification.
Rather, the two are intrisically intertwined, as with the bible and Tradition.
Sanctification is the process of being made actually holy, not merely legally declared so. It begins at baptism, is facilitated by mans of prayer, acts of charity, and the aid of sacraments, and is consummated upon entrance into heaven and union with God.

St. Augustine wrote:

The Lord made himself a debtor, not by receiving something, but by promising something. One does not say to him, “Pay for what you received”, but “Pay what you promised.”

Likewise the Second Council of Orange in 529 declared:

Whatever good works we do are deserving of reward, not through any merit anterior to grace; their performance, rather, is due to a prior gift of grace to which we have no claim.**
 
**Even in Paul, justificaton cannot be isolated from the other images he employs to describe God’s salvific activity toward us. While righteous/justice/justificatio is the primary way the Apostle describes what God does for us in Christ, it is complemented by other images which express aspects of God’s activity in nonlegal terminology that refers to personal and corporate transformation. Paul recognized that Christ had “Once for all” (Rom 6:10) died to sin and had justified human beings (Gal 2:16, Rom 3:26-28, 4:25, 5:18), but he freely described what this involves under such images as:

Salvation (2Cor. 7:10, Rom. 1:16, 10:10, 12:11);
Expiation of sins (Rom 3:25);
Redemption of sinners (1Cor. 1:30, Rom. 3:24, 8:32);
Reconciliation of sinners to God (2Cor. 5:18-20; Rom 5:10-11, 11:15);
Adoption into the family of God (Gal 4:5, Rom. 8:15, 23);
Sanctification (1Cor. 1:2, 30; 6:11);
Freedom (Gal. 5:1, 13; Rom 8:1-2, 21);
Transformation (2Cor. 3:18, Rom. 12:20);
Glorification (2Cor 3:10, Rom 8:30);
New Creation (Gal 6:15; 2Cor 5:17; cf. 1Cor. 15:45).

Protestants see justification, sanctification, and glorification as three successive phases of salvation—related, but essentially distinct.
Catholics see them as three aspects of the same process begun at the same moment in time…**
 
Protestants see justification, sanctification, and glorification as three successive phases of salvation—related, but essentially distinct.
Catholics see them as three aspects of the same process begun at the same moment in time…
I’m not sure that’s totally accurate. I know that in my own tradition, we see all of these as grace - just different facets of the same grace.

Thank God for grace. 🙂
 
I’m not sure that’s totally accurate. I know that in my own tradition, we see all of these as grace - just different facets of the same grace.

Thank God for grace. 🙂
This is totally accurate. Why always the self-doubt? It is what it is…accept it.
 
OneTrueCathApos, I think you have a misconception of the Protestant perspective on merit. Non-Catholic Christians believe in varying degrees of punishment as well as reward. Why would you think otherwise?
 
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