Protestants: What do you think of Matthew 16:18?

[Pitcharan]

**
Stop bickering and stay on the topic of the OP.**

Dear Moderator,
I realise my folly and will be grateful if you would also delete my post #172.

Regards
Pitcharan

 

[Pitcharan]

I’m no Feeneyite. I realize that God can and DOES save some that are not in the Church. And I have already pointed that out to you, but you refuse to listen.

Your problem is in the use of the term MAIN institution for salvation. This implies that there are others - and there AREN’T. By calling me a heretic - you are simply trying to cover up *your *blunder. Perhaps it’s because English isn’t your first language - or perhaps you simply worded your posts wrongly.

Whatever the case - the words you chose were a patently false representation of Church teaching.

Agreed friend, you are neither a Feenyite nor a heretic. If you felt that I said that about you, I’m sorry. (But if you care to read my post again you will see that I have not said that at all).

When I said “the main institution for salvation” I did not mean that Jesus established other institutions, NO. I have no difference with you on that the CC is the ONLY church established by our Lord. This is what I meant: the church is the main institution for salvation and God also has other ways of saving humans outside the church.

When I said that genuine seekers of truth are technically part of the CC, there is NO false representation of CC teaching. Please see how: Our Lord Himself said Everyone on the side of truth listens to me (John 18:37). Now, listen=hear+obey. Those who are on the side of truth and hear the Gospel will surely join the CC. Those who don’t get to hear are ignorant, but saved because of being on the side of truth. All those who are saved become integrated into the body of Christ.

Now where is the false representation in my statement?

 

[elvisman]

Agreed friend, you are neither a Feenyite nor a heretic. If you felt that I said that about you, I’m sorry. (But if you care to read my post again you will see that I have not said that at all).

When I said “the main institution for salvation” I did not mean that Jesus established other institutions, NO. I have no difference with you on that the CC is the ONLY church established by our Lord. This is what I meant: the church is the main institution for salvation and God also has other ways of saving humans outside the church.

When I said that genuine seekers of truth are technically part of the CC, there is NO false representation of CC teaching. Please see how: Our Lord Himself said Everyone on the side of truth listens to me (John 18:37). Now, listen=hear+obey. Those who are on the side of truth and hear the Gospel will surely join the CC. Those who don’t get to hear are ignorant, but saved because of being on the side of truth. All those who are saved become integrated into the body of Christ.

Now where is the false representation in my statement?

Well, yes - however, I don’t think you are maliciously claiming anything. According to Catholic teaching, there is no salvation outside the Church. This is the declaration of “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”.

Again, you have stated:
"the church is the main institution for salvation and God also has other ways of saving humans outside the church."

According to the Catechism, even if one is outside the Church and they are invincibly ignorant of the truth, yet truly seek God in their hearts - they MAY be saved. However, they are saved THROUGH the Church.

Finally - you keep stating that the Catholic Church is the MAIN institution for salvation. According to the Catechism’s teaching on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - it is the ONLY institution for salvation.**

I hope that clears things up, friend.

 

[Juliebug108]

Hi Juliebug, I will take a quick stab at what you are asking.

Hi Rinnie!

Thanks for the reply. The things I listed were by no means meant in a form of disrespect against the Catholic Church, so I hope it didn’t seem like it. I was simply answering the question posed by Nicea about teachings or traditions which are not directly found in the Bible…from a protestant perspective anyway.

You brought up many good points - most of which I agreed with. In all honesty, I have no problem with intercessory prayer (while I’m uncomfortable practicing it, I have no issues with others practicing it). Also, the immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary are not difficult to believe…Although I do still have a difficult time understanding the belief in perpetual virginity…

Your explanation of indulgences makes it sound alright…but I still have a hard time believing that one needs to “earn” salvation. With good works, I think it’s awesome that the Catholic Church encourages good works, as they very well should! I just have the belief that salvation is through faith alone, by God’s grace alone, for Christ alone - through God’s grace, I believe he changes us into people who WANT to do good works, not for salvation, but for spreading the Gospel. This is a very protestant understanding of salvation

Purgatory and infallibility still just don’t make sense to me at all. I think I’m going to go talk to the priest at the Newman Center on my college campus, and see if he can help me understand these beliefs. I checked out a Catholic Catechism from the library, but I actually think it’s producing more questions as I read it. lol

Anywho, this is all way off topic from the OP, so I think I’ll end with that.

Peace and Blessings,
Julie

 

[Pitcharan]

**Well, yes - however, I don’t **think you are maliciously claiming anything. According to Catholic teaching, there is no salvation outside the Church. This is the declaration of “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”.

Again, you have stated:
"the church is the main institution for salvation and God also has other ways of saving humans outside the church."

According to the Catechism, even if one is outside the Church and they are invincibly ignorant of the truth, yet truly seek God in their hearts - they MAY be saved. However, they are saved THROUGH the Church.

Of course, it is through the Church, for our Lord Himself declared to the Samaritan woman “… for salvation is from the Jews”. Catholics are really jews in the true sense of the word. When our Lord saves someone outside christendom, IMO the factors that make it happen are: the person having freely chosen to be on the side of truth, the intercession of saints and the blood of Jesus, who is simultaneously God, Jew and Church.

Finally - you keep stating that the Catholic Church is the MAIN institution for salvation. According to the Catechism’s teaching on* Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus* - it is the ONLY institution for salvation.

But I also clarified that I did not mean there are other institutions, but only said that our Lord may also save some who are outside CC; the fact that such cases are also saved through the church is not denied by me; I am only emphasising that everyone on the side of truth are either formally baptised members of the CC or technically belong to it

I hope that clears things up, friend.

I think there is NO difference in our beliefs

 

[pablope]

Hi Rinnie!

You brought up many good points - most of which I agreed with. In all honesty, I have no problem with intercessory prayer (while I’m uncomfortable practicing it, I have no issues with others practicing it). Also, the immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary are not difficult to believe…Although I do still have a difficult time understanding the belief in perpetual virginity…

 

[ConfusedTim]

The following YouTube Video provides an excellent overview of the language used

youtube.com/watch?v=82aFlmdtRLw

 

[guanophore]

elvisman,

What I do not get is how does one separate Peter’s confession from himself? Are they two separate entities in competition?

Dividing and separating is the fruit of the Reformation. It continues to scatter this seed every generation.

 

[guanophore]

Hello! This is exactly how I interpret the scripture. Rather than placing emphasis on Peter, I see the emphasis as being on the “rock of faith” that Jesus is the Christ.

Why must one negate the other? The Apostles taught that both are true.

It is interesting to note that you must set one against the other. Why is that?

However, I can also easily see and understand how Catholics interpret the text as well. I do find Matthew 23 to be very important area of scripture as well…particularly Matthew 23:10 “10 do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.”

Peace and Blessings!
Julie

You appear to be invested in minimizing Peter’s role and authority in the church. Is that because you don’t want to be subject to his successor?

Jesus often uses hyperbole in his Teaching. How do we understand His words? We must look at them in the light of all the Teaching together.

Matt 23:10-11
10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah.

The Gk here is cathagetes which means to guide, to explain, or one who provides instruction and guidance - ‘teacher, instructor.’

Now we know that these roles are also gifts of Christ to the Church:

Eph 4:10-14
11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.

So He cannot mean that He does not want them to be, or act like Teachers. He commissioned them:

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Catholics interepret scripture according to the principle that it does not contradict itself - it is a unified whole. Therefore, we must understand the passage in the light of other passages.

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your **leaders **and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing — for that would be harmful to you.

Why are they referred to as “leaders”, if Jesus forbid this?

Heb 13:7

7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

How are we to imitate our leaders if we are not allowed to identify them?

 

[SnakeMauler]

Whatever it means, it doesnt sound like it’s telling me to be “non denominational” or Lutheran or Baptist or any religion that can somEhow directly associate it’s founding with a human being (Lutherans), Geographic location (Anglican). By process of elimination, it must be the one that is in some way neutral and universal and has to actually have endured through history against pagans and Islam and evil and whatnot. Thus, Catholicism is the answer.

 

[Juliebug108]

Whatever it means, it doesnt sound like it’s telling me to be “non denominational” or Lutheran or Baptist or any religion that can somEhow directly associate it’s founding with a human being (Lutherans), Geographic location (Anglican). By process of elimination, it must be the one that is in some way neutral and universal and has to actually have endured through history against pagans and Islam and evil and whatnot. Thus, Catholicism is the answer.

Why so divisive? Bigoted attitudes such as these are **exactly what divides the body of Christ. We are all Christians. Can’t you knock it off with the whole “We’re the only true Christians” baloney?
**
All churches were founded by human beings. Jesus was not only God, but also FULLY MAN aka human and God. Also, according to Catholic reasoning, He set Peter in charge of building his church after His ascension. Peter was a human…and a flawed one just like the rest of us.

Seriously, I find it hard to believe that God has established a hierarchy of Christians in Heaven, where the Catholics get the best seats in the house (so to speak), and the Protestants somehow get less…so I’m pretty sure he doesn’t want us establishing hierarchies here on Earth.

If the Catholic church really hopes to reunite with their “separated-brethren” then I would recommend that you** ditch the bigotry** first. As a curious Lutheran who is interested in the Catholic church, I regret to inform you all that these types of attitudes push me away (and I’m sure push others away as well) more than anything else.

As I’ve said a number of times now, maybe we should focus more on COMMON beliefs and go from there. Focusing on common ground is much more likely to build a sense of unity. Pointing out flaws only encourages people to point out your flaws in response.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

You appear to be invested in minimizing Peter’s role and authority in the church. Is that because you don’t want to be subject to his successor?

Not at all. My point had very little to do with Peter or the Pope. The point I was trying to make is that CHRIST is our leader, and that we are all one body of Christ. I think God through his love, mercy, and grace is capable of seeing past the whole denominational divide.

However, I can also easily see and understand how Catholics interpret the text as well. I do find Matthew 23 to be very important area of scripture as well…particularly Matthew 23:10 “10 do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.”

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[vsedriver]

Maybe it’s a small point but in verse 19 we see the promise to give Peter the keys not the actual giving. The promise is in the future tense.

The power to bind and loose was given to all the apostles in Matt 18:18 so I’m not sure I see anything unique to Peter with the power to bind and loose.

I don’t doubt Peter’s primacy and actually am considering conversion but…still have a ways to go.

You have to understand what it meant in the 1st century to receive keys. Jesus is a King and when he leaves, like all kings of the age, He gives the keys of his kingdom to his designated chief steward. Kings had many stewards who held keys over their area of responsibility, like the wine steward etc but only one steward, the chief steward, had ALL the keys of the kingdom. Although all the Apostles are Christ’s stewards only Peter is Christ’s Chief Steward on earth, and the Peter’s successors continue his office today in the position as Pope.

Christ did not leave us orphans. He left us an earthly shepherd to feed and teach, and protect the faith.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie!

Thanks for the reply. The things I listed were by no means meant in a form of disrespect against the Catholic Church, so I hope it didn’t seem like it. I was simply answering the question posed by Nicea about teachings or traditions which are not directly found in the Bible…from a protestant perspective anyway.

You brought up many good points - most of which I agreed with. In all honesty, I have no problem with intercessory prayer (while I’m uncomfortable practicing it, I have no issues with others practicing it). Also, the immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary are not difficult to believe…Although I do still have a difficult time understanding the belief in perpetual virginity…

Your explanation of indulgences makes it sound alright…but I still have a hard time believing that one needs to “earn” salvation. With good works, I think it’s awesome that the Catholic Church encourages good works, as they very well should! I just have the belief that salvation is through faith alone, by God’s grace alone, for Christ alone - through God’s grace, I believe he changes us into people who WANT to do good works, not for salvation, but for spreading the Gospel. This is a very protestant understanding of salvation

Purgatory and infallibility still just don’t make sense to me at all. I think I’m going to go talk to the priest at the Newman Center on my college campus, and see if he can help me understand these beliefs. I checked out a Catholic Catechism from the library, but I actually think it’s producing more questions as I read it. lol

Anywho, this is all way off topic from the OP, so I think I’ll end with that.

Peace and Blessings,
Julie

Hi Julie, I did not find you disrespectful at all. I think the Priest will help you alot. He knows alot more then we do

By the way Julie, we can’t earn salvation, Jesus did that for us by the Cross. But we can lose Salvation by our sins. We are told in the bible when we sin to repent.

Now when we confess our sins and our forgiven we still have Penance to do. For some its not to ever repeat the sin. For some its prayers, for others its helping others.

Its like when you were little and your Mother punished you when you were wrong. Did she say if you say you are sorry you will not have to be punished See what I am saying. When we repent we are not earning our salvation, we are doing something to help us to understand what we really did.

But vist Father he will help you alot. God Bless!

 

[SnakeMauler]

Why so divisive? Bigoted attitudes such as these are **exactly what divides the body of Christ. We are all Christians. Can’t you knock it off with the whole “We’re the only true Christians” baloney?
**
All churches were founded by human beings. Jesus was not only God, but also FULLY MAN aka human and God. Also, according to Catholic reasoning, He set Peter in charge of building his church after His ascension. Peter was a human…and a flawed one just like the rest of us.

Seriously, I find it hard to believe that God has established a hierarchy of Christians in Heaven, where the Catholics get the best seats in the house (so to speak), and the Protestants somehow get less…so I’m pretty sure he doesn’t want us establishing hierarchies here on Earth.

If the Catholic church really hopes to reunite with their “separated-brethren” then I would recommend that you** ditch the bigotry** first. As a curious Lutheran who is interested in the Catholic church, I regret to inform you all that these types of attitudes push me away (and I’m sure push others away as well) more than anything else.

As I’ve said a number of times now, maybe we should focus more on COMMON beliefs and go from there. Focusing on common ground is much more likely to build a sense of unity. Pointing out flaws only encourages people to point out your flaws in response.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Dude, if one guy on an Internet forum can like, influence your decision of religion, thats just silly. Thats the point of religion its supposed to be completely true. Not plural with all kinds of other answers. Theres no truth in that. There’s only one God so there can be only one truth.

 

[Juliebug108]

Dude, if one guy on an Internet forum can like, influence your decision of religion, thats just silly. Thats the point of religion its supposed to be completely true. Not plural with all kinds of other answers. Theres no truth in that. There’s only one God so there can be only one truth.

A) I’m not a dude; B) Bigotry is never going to lead to unity - only division; C) If a church teaches that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and upholds the teachings of the Bible and the teachings of Christ Himself, then there is plenty of TRUTH.

You might not like the scriptural references about us all being one body of Christ, but that is the TRUTH. Whether someone is Pentecostal, Baptist, Nazarene, Catholic, or Lutheran, if they are a believer in Christ, then they are my brother/sister in Christ.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[guanophore]

Hmm…that’s an interesting point. I’m new to exploring the understandings and beliefs of the Catholic faith, so please don’t think I’m trying to be argumentative.

That is why CAF is here, Julie!

I was simply trying to emphasize that our true Leader is Christ our King. When I look at it that way, the rest seems a lot less important.

Jesus chose to express His leadership and authority through specifically chosen people.

I don’t really understand the “keys to Heaven” debate. Didn’t Jesus teach that we are ALL one in Christ? Rom. 12:5, Rom. 15:7, Rom. 16:16 1 Peter 5:14, Colossians 3:15, and I can list many more as well. Why debate over the “true church” or who has the keys to the kingdom? Again, I’m not trying to annoy anyone…just trying to learn.

Peace and blessings!
Julie

The Keys represent His authority to legislate. Jesus taught that all who were in unity with His Apostles were one, yes. However, since the Reformation, groups and indviduals have been progressively departing from the Apostolic teaching. They have left the One Faith, and created many faiths with contradictory doctrines. To they extent that each group is separated from the Apostolic faith, unity no longer exists.

 

[guanophore]

, let’s say I agree that it makes sense that Jesus gave the actual keys of Heaven to Peter (which I’m not totally sold on, just yet), why would that mean that only the Catholic church has the fullness of truth?

Because Jesus revealed it to the Church, and promised to keep it safe with the Church. All other denominations are defined by the nature and extent of Catholicism they reject. Some more, some less.

What keys do you think Jesus was talking about?

If the various denominations are founded in Biblical truth and in Christ’s very own teachings, are they somehow less than the Catholic church?

To "denominate’ means to take away from, to take one’s name separeately from.

Jesus never intended for the faith to be exrapolated from the pages of scripture 1600 years after the fact. He founded His Church on PEOPLE, not books, however Holy.

Besides, what people consider “biblical truth” is really just their interprretation of what the Scripture says. This is why two different denominations can both claim to have “biblical truth” and reach opposite conclusions using the same verses.

If we are all one in the body of Christ, it makes no sense that the Catholic church would be the only “true” church.

I agree. To the extent that people depart from the Apostolic Teaching preserved infallibly in the Catholic Church, they depart from unity with Christ.

I would, however, say that any church refusing to accept the Apostles Creed is seriously in error…but, if the basic tenants of our faith are rooted in the same place, then are we not all equal in the eyes of Christ?

We are all equal in the eyes of Christ. He calls all of us to become members of His One Body, the Church.

The basic tenents are NOT rooted in the same place.

Catholicism is rooted in the teachings of Jesus through the Apostles. The Reformers did not believe that this deposit of faith was still existing.

 

[guanophore]

That still doesn't really justify the mentality that the Catholic Church is the only true path to salvation.

There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but Christ. He established One Church. All who are "in HIm’ are members of His One body, the Church. Through the Church, He brings salvation into the world. No one is saved outslde the Church. This is the teaching we have received from theApostles. How did you expect us to “justify” it?

The Apostles Creed that I learned during my Lutheran Catechism/confirmation is identical to the Apostles Creed used within the Catholic church.

Yes, but the meanings of the language used has been revised so that it no longer means what the words meant to those who wrote it.

My Lutheran understanding of baptism is identical, as well. The Lutheran understanding of the Eucharist, while not identical, is only very slightly different. Luther didn’t see his changes as a matter of interpretation, but rather, as a means of eliminating corruption within the Church.

The fact that Luther did not see what he was doing does not change the fact that he did it.I am sure he never intended to spawn the notion that anyone with a belly button can interpret the scriptures apart from the Apostolic faith, but that is what happened.

I am also sure that he wanted to eliminate corruption in the Church. Where he erred was in thinking that the doctrine was corrupt, not just the people. There was never anything wrong with the Teachings of Jesus preserved infallibly by the HS in the church.

He didn’t even want to leave the church! Now obviously, I am totally and admittedly biased because of my religious education,

I don’t think this is biased. It think that historical documents indicate this to be the case.

but how do you preserve the idea of Apostolic succession being the true path to God given the undeniable historic abuses and corruption that existed prior to/during the reformation?

The Catholic Church does not teach that Apostolic Succession is the “true path to God”. The Church teaches that Jesus is the only way to the father. The Apostolic Succession preserves the One Church He founded, through which we come to know and follow Him.

The faith is not defined by those who depart from it.

Please don’t take offense to this question - I really don’t want to offend anyone here. I’m just confused about Apostolic succession and the whole past corruption thing…

Do you think the office of the President somehow changes in nature if the person occupying it is a bad president?

 

[guanophore]

Also, it seems I was confused about the Catholic perception of Salvation…idk I always thought that Catholics believed that only fellow Catholics were true Christians, and thus, only Catholics were on the true path, and only they were truly saved from hell.

Peace and Blessings,
Julie

The Catholic Catechism would be a very valuable tool for you.