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Atreyu
Guest
No, what saved Noah from death in the Flood?
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Atreyu
Guest
“What” encompasses “who”. Or, like you have said, “Who”.
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Hello Atreyu.
Absolutely, God could’ve brought a space ship if he wanted to save Noah and his family. You’re exactly right. There are many layers and understandings of Noah, the flood, faith and obedience. One could probably right a lengthy article on the subject. I see the symbolism of baptism, absolutely. I see so many metaphors that it is dizzying.
I haven’t looked at the links yet, but I plan to do so.
On the surface, I would probably liken the ark as a “vehicle”, just like Christ being born of the Blessed Virgin Mary was the “vehicle” for salvation. Faith in Christ and obedience to His commands are the reality of the symbol of Noah and his faith and obedience.
This could be really deep stuff
Peace…
MW
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East_Anglican
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asthmaticus
Guest
i’ve attended many evangelical services(my wife is not Cath)…NEVER do I hear ‘Catholic’ music…that is so long as they are aware it was written by or for the Holy Mother Church…In fact, one pastor proclaimed…from the pulpit, that the Ave Maria was written by Satan! Help!
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allischalmers
Guest
:clapping:
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AgnosTheist
Guest
Catholics have a more PHYSICAL relationship with their God.
(because they believe they get to eat their God)
Protestants have a more PERSONAL relationship with their God.
(because they devote their entire spiritual life to God, instead of dividing it to different saints)
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inJESUS
Guest
how should the Church teach how to walk with God?
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
I’m not Catholic, but this seems to be an absurd statement.
Your church teaches that the Scriptures teach you how to walk with God, right?
The Catholic Church teaches that the magisterium and Scripture teach you how to walk with God.
They are all tools my friend that God uses to teach us.
I have found more spirituality through Catholic devotional practices than ever before as a protestant. Those devotional practices help a person walk with God which is absent in protestantism.
Maybe you should start another thread and teach us good people how protestantism’s approach to walking with God is superior to the Catholic approach. I’m sure you could find a few examples.
Peace…
MW
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Cathdefender
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PerryJ
Guest
As a former Protestant I can understand many of the points made by our Protestant brothers. Bless all of them. I do want to point out a couple of thoughts that perhaps need clarification. The Magesterium did not exist in Noahs time as it is Old Testament. Christ existed; however, the Catholic Church and apostolic succession did not exist until after Christ crucifixion. One may argue when the Catholic Church began; however, if one reads the early Church Fathers they will see that the Church began at the time of Christ’s death. They believed this and died for the Church and the Eucharist. As a Protestant I argued against these points and many others. Once you read their writings you will see that the Church was Catholic. I do not mean just the term Catholic as the term was not coined until around the year 100. Their actions were Catholic in every sense. The Protestant faith is based upon men that were Catholic in every sense and in every action. I ask all Protestants to throuroughly read the early Church Fathers. You will find the Catholic Church and the Eucharist. The Apostles and the people taught by the Apostles performed the Eucharist just as it is performed every day in the Catholic Church. If one does not want to believe the early Church fathers read secular history from this time and one will again see they died for the Church and the Eucharist.
As a Protestant I thought the phrase “God’s grace is enough” was magical and left Catholics without a good response. What I didn’t understand was how I was limiting the power of Christ. Christ not only saves us he enters us during mass and changes us. He enters our body, our soul and changes us to do good works. One can not have faith alone. One must have faith and works. Tell me of any Catholic or Protestant that only has faith and does not do good works. Throughout the Bible God speaks of doing good works and he does this by his grace, by entering us and changing us. Why limit God by saying “Gods grace is enough” It is not a statement of freedom it is a statement that limits Christ.
The statement that “He didn’t need a magesterium to tell him what to believe and not believe.” is interesting. It presents the Magesterium as a man made organization; which, it is not. The Catholic Church and the Magesterium is not man made. It was created by Christ and is protected by Christ. Tell me of a man made organization that has existed for 2,000 years and never contradicted itself or changed it’s mind. When schism or heresies occur did they publish clarifications. Did they change their thoughts. One only has to read the early Church Fathers again and one will see that the beliefs; which, many Protestant claim were added later were in fact always there. That is because the Holy Spirit; which, Christ gave to the Church protects it and guides it on spiritual matters.
One could state that Protestant do not need a magestrium. One can read the Bible and understand it’s message. One only needs to look at the world to see 30,000 denominations preaching different views. Some in direct contrast to each other. I was a Protestant and understand this very well. We had different Baptist denominations that did not even agree on basic elements. Each group trying its very best to be good Christians. Did the Holy Spirit misdirect some? Did the Holy Spirit change his mind? Did the Holy Spirit favor some over others? No. Then how can it be that Christ left all us alone on this earth to flounder about. Is this the Christ I believe in? Does this make sense? No, he left the Holy Church behind to help us and to guide us. This teaching is throuhgout the New Testament.
Both Protestants and Catholics walk with God that should not be debated by any of us. Catholics can have a fuller understanding of Christ as Christ left this wonderful gift behind for us and that is his Church that is protected by the Holy Spirit in all spiritual matters and she does not contradict the Bible or Sacred Traditions.
God bless all!
As a Protestant I thought the phrase “God’s grace is enough” was magical and left Catholics without a good response. What I didn’t understand was how I was limiting the power of Christ. Christ not only saves us he enters us during mass and changes us. He enters our body, our soul and changes us to do good works. One can not have faith alone. One must have faith and works. Tell me of any Catholic or Protestant that only has faith and does not do good works. Throughout the Bible God speaks of doing good works and he does this by his grace, by entering us and changing us. Why limit God by saying “Gods grace is enough” It is not a statement of freedom it is a statement that limits Christ.
The statement that “He didn’t need a magesterium to tell him what to believe and not believe.” is interesting. It presents the Magesterium as a man made organization; which, it is not. The Catholic Church and the Magesterium is not man made. It was created by Christ and is protected by Christ. Tell me of a man made organization that has existed for 2,000 years and never contradicted itself or changed it’s mind. When schism or heresies occur did they publish clarifications. Did they change their thoughts. One only has to read the early Church Fathers again and one will see that the beliefs; which, many Protestant claim were added later were in fact always there. That is because the Holy Spirit; which, Christ gave to the Church protects it and guides it on spiritual matters.
One could state that Protestant do not need a magestrium. One can read the Bible and understand it’s message. One only needs to look at the world to see 30,000 denominations preaching different views. Some in direct contrast to each other. I was a Protestant and understand this very well. We had different Baptist denominations that did not even agree on basic elements. Each group trying its very best to be good Christians. Did the Holy Spirit misdirect some? Did the Holy Spirit change his mind? Did the Holy Spirit favor some over others? No. Then how can it be that Christ left all us alone on this earth to flounder about. Is this the Christ I believe in? Does this make sense? No, he left the Holy Church behind to help us and to guide us. This teaching is throuhgout the New Testament.
Both Protestants and Catholics walk with God that should not be debated by any of us. Catholics can have a fuller understanding of Christ as Christ left this wonderful gift behind for us and that is his Church that is protected by the Holy Spirit in all spiritual matters and she does not contradict the Bible or Sacred Traditions.
God bless all!
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Atreyu
Guest
Hi asthmaticus, and welcome to the forums! I trust you will find them a lot of spiritual help and fun as well. That being said, I’m not really sure what your post is doing in this thread! You should feel free to start a new thread on your own. Just go to the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum and look near the top of the page (just under your name) and you should be able to start a new thread that way. Feel free to send me a private message if you need any help on the forums or with anything else!
Pax tecum.
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Atreyu
Guest
Typology - I love it!
Close! So close that I can’t disagree with you. But what I have to add is that the church itself is a “vehicle” as you have put it as well. It is God’s chosen vehicle for our salvation just as the Ark was God’s chosen vehicle for Noah’s and his family’s salvation.
Just wait until you read what Augustine had to sayThis could be really deep stuff
And also with you.
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Atreyu
Guest
What are your reasons behind this claim? I agree that the Ark symbolises (I prefer the term “prefigures”) the body of Christ, but I would have thought that Noah himself prefigured Jesus. I’m interested to see what you have to say.
Oh, and it does make sense for Noah to be saved even though he is a type for Jesus; in the same way that Isaac, although certainly a type for Jesus, is replaced by the Ram caught in the brambles (or crown of thorns).
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Valke2
Guest
Since Noah didn’t invite anyone other than family onto the Ark, it wouldn’t matter what they believed.
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Cathdefender
Guest
That’s because God told Noah, his family only. Every Jew laughed at him…then the floods came.
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reteeks21
Guest
So, are you implying that protestants represnt the jews Noah was dealing with?
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Atreyu
Guest
The story of Noah does not present us with a complete definitive exposition of the doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yet it is a witness of that doctrine.
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reteeks21
Guest
So, based on your statement, are you implying that protestants represnt the jews Noah was dealing with?
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Atreyu
Guest
Not Protestants specifically. I believe the Ark represents the church; outside of which there is no salvation. Read what Augustine said.
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