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BettyBoop416
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Thankfully, this has also been my experience.
Protestants, what's holding you back from coming to the Catholic Church?
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Safia
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Why do you make this distinction, between theological and administrative? Isn’t that a man-made distinction? You can never be sure what Christ intended to be viewed as important or critical to His Church.
The infallibility and supremacy of the Church isn’t an “administrative” issue. Rather, there is very little “administrative” quality that is bound by dogma – 'tis why local churches can celebrate small-t traditions.
I’m thinking, more so than anything “administrative” in nature, of the remainder of the Sacraments. You don’t have Confirmation – so every Lutheran is denied the fruitful gifts of the Holy Spirit, for which there is a ton of Scriptural and historical evidence.
That’s fine. Do you believe in Apostolic Succession? And, if so, at what point did, in your opinion, Apostolic Succession cease?
I suppose we should take a step back. What I mean is that Luther is a totally random guy. The Church has infallibility – whether you, as an individual, believe it or not doesn’t make it any less true. Again, there is an obvious Scriptural and historical development for the Church, Peter’s primacy, and Apostolic Succession.
You must then claim that at some point the Catholics went very, very wrong – so fallibly wrong that a random guy, apparently guided by the Holy Spirit (though the argument made earlier regarding Protestant denominations and Paul’s long-winded trial to bring together the Corinthians, etc., should probably worry you in terms of believing Luther’s capacity for Truth), was right. I don’t think you can make that argument, but if you can, let’s see it.
Absolutely not. Christ started this Church. Christ lives in this Church. Christ offers miracles and incorrupt bodies to this Church. Christ so loved his mother that He allows her to speak for him, and to intercede for us.
I’ve never accepted Catholic teaching on the word of man. Ever. It’s history and the presence of Christ in the Church that brought me to it. If the Church wasn’t infallible, and didn’t have the very clear Scriptural and historical evidence for all its teachings, I couldn’t be Christian. Lutherans and Protestants are far off from the true Church as it was understood and prodded towards by the early Fathers.
What I was saying is that your argument was ad hominen. Yes, your emotion and what you’ve come to know binds you to your pastorship, but that’s not what binds me to Catholicism.
Yes, I understand. And, yes, I don’t believe it has that authority – because God certainly didn’t give it that authority.
It’s what I mentioned above. Atheists frustrate me, as God gives us so many miracles, and His presence is continually present among us. But atheists reject Him ad hominem. The same goes for all Christians, who in huge numbers choose not to see that the Catholic Church is the one that sees abundant graces from the Lord.
Of course, just like the atheist binds himself to rejecting all theism.
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gcnuss
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and
Safia,Of course, just like the atheist binds himself to rejecting all theism.
Being compared to an atheist is not likely to convince me of the validity of your arguments.
That said, I think we are at loggerheads here. You are a committed Catholic Christian. I am a committed Lutheran Christian. I don’t know if we will ever reach agreement on the issues we have discussed. Yet, I treasure you as one who seeks to be faithful to our Lord.
God’s peace be with you.
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Safia
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Whatever floats your boat, sir.
The comparison still stands: that the arguments/comments you offered came from within your system of belief, which is circular. The comparison was that, just like an atheist who binds himself to atheism, a set of beliefs produced by man, you’ve bound yourself to your Confessions, a set of beliefs produced by man, while the Catholic binds herself to the Church Christ established, as evidenced by history and Scripture and the rationality of Apostolic Succession.
You also didn’t respond to the remainder of the arguments I offered, which all stem from reason.
Pax Christi!
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Safia
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Why not?
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Safia
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And why do you have issue with that? It’s not made up.
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Nicea325
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Quote:
And he also did not leave an organized Bible either or set of doctrines all defined and ratified,does it make them void or unconvincing?
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Erich
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…who, no doubt, believes that Scripture is the sole authority in all matters pertaining to faith and morals (despite what it says in 1 Timothy 3:15).
I’d be interested in seeing your answers to the following questions:
- Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?
- Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?
- Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?
- Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?
- If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?
- Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?
- If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?
- Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?
- Is keeping someone from profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord an act of charity? Yes or no?
- Do you interpret the Bible? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #10 is yes, is your interpretation infallible? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #11 is no, then will you admit that your interpretations of the Bible could be wrong in one or more places? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #10 is yes, then does anyone have the authority to tell you that your interpretations of the Bible are wrong? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #13 is yes, then who? Just one name please.
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gcnuss
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Not necessarily. However, one can see that there is no single set of books of the Bible agreed to by all Christians. The Orthodox Bible is different from the Catholic Bible and both are different from the version commonly used in non-Catholic, non-Orthodox bodies. The same may be said of sets of doctrines. There is, for better or worse, no one canon of scripture nor no one set of doctrines that is common to all Christians.
Does this make any of them void or unconvincing? I would say not, with some reservations. (Well, I do have trouble dealing with OSAS and beliefs that the Eucharist is not the Body and Blood of our Lord.) Rather, we have the opportunity to discuss differences, learn from one another, and to strengthen our faith in the one true God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Will we ever be in complete accord? Probably not on this side of the eschaton.
Need to attend to some of my daily routine now. I look forward to continuing this discussion as time permits.
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gcnuss
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I am not one who holds to your definition of sola scriptura. The farthest I go is to say that nothing the church teaches can contravene holy scripture, i.e., scripture is not the only authority but it is the ultimate authority.
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Nicea325
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gcnuss:
Blessings my brother in Christ.
Blessings my brother in Christ.
Unfortunately different views and opinions have no bearing on doctrinal truth. The question is: Did the early church truly establish and canonize the Bible? Either it did or did not?
Again,does not matter or affect the Truth whether one accepts or rejectes any set of doctrines. Did the Arians accept the Trinitarian doctrine? Nope! Did the church waiver in order to satisfy them? Nope! It is what it is…rejections do not change doctrine (Trinity,Incarnation,etc)
Not as long as we believe we can’t do it.
God bless and have a blessed day.
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Nicea325
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Where does Scripture explicitly teach it is the: ultimate authority?
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TevereNauta
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This was in response to someone pointing out how–apparently–rather rude and well, mean, some CAF members can be (a tiny minority to be sure) in relation to apologetics, polemics, etc. I agree completely.
I also pray that our Protestant and Orthodox and Jewish et al. brothers and sisters DO NOT judge the Universal Church based solely or in part on their experiences on the CAF. Although I love reading the many fascinating threads here on CAF we have to remember that it is the internet with all the pros but mostly cons thereof. This is not real life, Praise God.
My $.02 and the opinions of many Faithful (both within Mother Church and without) is that there is no greater task in our time than Ecumenism. We of the Church of Rome, I think, have no higher duty than to 1) understand why our Orthodox and Protestant brothers and sisters remain outside the Church established by Our Lord and 2) invite them through charity, philosophy, and discussion to return to Her and heal schisms that doubtless please the Adversary. As a side note, I think an AWESOME vehicle to accomplish the mending of Christ’s seamless coat is the Taizé movement founded by Frère Roger, a personal hero of mine and a martyr for Christianity. If we can sing together before the Lord, the Spirit will be able to build on that companionship to do His work. As Christ prayed: “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” (John 17:21)
(N.B. For my Catholic brothers and sisters I am NOT advocating against dogma whatsoever, I am simply saying we must cater our apologetics to our separated family with an eye on love and charity and knowledge, not upper-hand fiats or condemnations)
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AmateurPianist
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The more I think about it, the more I find this line of questioning very condescending and close to insulting.
It assumes a “My organization is superior - yours is inferior” status.
Otherwise, why ask the question?
I don’t go around asking other Christians “what’s holding you back from coming to my organization”.
Neither do I suspect most Protestants here.
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Nicea325
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Honestly, I do not sense it has anything to do with superiority,but rather a simple question.
Peace
I see your point AP. May I suggest, however, that since this is a Catholic forum, it isn’t surprising a Catholic would ask it? I might ask the same of others were I on a Lutheran forum (Catholics and Protestants, what’s holding you back from coming to the Lutheran Church?).
Jon
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AnglicanForMary
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Safia, Indeed, and I’ve read my Newman, and my Warren Tanghe (former AC rector of my parish who accepted a call to be chaplain to an Episcopal Convent of sisters in Catonville, MD. The sisters eventually swam the Tiber AND took the property with them, and Fr. Tanghe eventually went with them. In fact he was recently (re)ordained as a Roman priest up there)
Still hasn’t convicted me.
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gcnuss
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It seems reasonable that no teaching of the church can (or should) go against Scripture. To justify doing so would call into question the authority of all of Scripture.
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A_G
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AmateurPianist ,
No disrecpect to any of my Christian brothers and sisters.
I started this thread because I wanted to get some different thoughts and opinions from Protestants (what you agree / disagree with us on). Please do not take this question as condescending in any way.
I pray for Christian unity!
With love in Christ,
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dontknow
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