Protestants Whats wrong with this prayer? = Rosary

[Texan_in_DC]

I would like to know from our fundamental friends what is wrong with these words that we say in the Rosary, we open it with the Lords Prayer or Our Father, we recite the Hail Mary’s while we meditate on the life of Jesus and Mary, we close with the Glory be, and the Mother of our Lord asked us to pray the O my Jesus prayer afer each decade at Fatima.

Our Father

Our Father, who art in Heaven; Hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Glory be to the Father

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

After each decade say the following prayer requested by the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima:

“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy.”

 

[Superstar905]

Well, I’m Catholic, and I can tell you, that part of their problem is the invoking of Marys intercession in “Holy Mary Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now…”

They would reply, that she is dead, and she cannot hear our prayers…or better yet, we are talking to spirits, which the bible “plainly” tells us is wrong, etc…

 

[imroc]

Contextually speaking, where does it say that She’s dead, and we cannot ask for the intercession of those who are not with us

 

[Superstar905]

imroc:

Contextually speaking, where does it say that She’s dead, and we cannot ask for the intercession of those who are not with us

well, like I said, I’m Catholic, but to answer your question, scripture does not say that she is dead, lol. As a Catholic, I would say that she is difinitely alive, as are all who are in Christ. God is God of the living, not the dead!!!

but hey, if I was a fundamentalist, I’d say, why do you be part of a website that devotes itself to the Irish? You should only be devoting yourself to God I wonder if examples like these show Fundamentalis Protestants how absurb they sound when they say things like this, like it’s either/or rather than both/and, and how devoting yourself to anything good doesn’t take away from the Glory of God.

 

[flameburns623]

Texan in DC:

Hail Mary

For most Protestants the problems start right there. Prayer in Protestant understanding is not merely petition but also worship. Creatures are NOT to be worshipped.

full of grace,

There are reams of arguments on both sides about this. Protestants do not believe one can be ‘full of grace’. Grace is not a substance, like water, which one can have much of or little of. Grace is a verb not a noun: it is ‘favor’. Hence the preference of most Protestant translators for ‘highly-favored one’.

Holy Mary,

There is not holy except God.

Mother of God,

She is not God’s mother. God has neither mother nor father. She is properly called ‘theotokos’, or ‘bearer of God’ insofar as Christ was both True God and True Man. But Mary was not the originator or source of Christ’s divinity, merely the bearer of it.

pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

She can’t hear the request. She is dead–either in Hell or in Heaven. If she is in Hell she is neither inclined to pray for anyone on earth nor would her prayers be efficacious. If she is in Heaven she is beyond any knowledge of what is happening on Earth, indeed such an awareness would mar her beatific vision of God, to Whom alone she should be giving praise and glory.

Not trying to be rude but the question was asked.

 

[Milliardo]

I actually replied to the arguments raised by flameburns in another forum (and no, it’s not flameburns I was in discussion with, though the same arguments were raised): igma.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29617&start=105 It’s the second post from the top.

 

[imroc]

Superstar905:

well, like I said, I’m Catholic, but to answer your question, scripture does not say that she is dead, lol. As a Catholic, I would say that she is difinitely alive, as are all who are in Christ. God is God of the living, not the dead!!!

but hey, if I was a fundamentalist, I’d say, why do you be part of a website that devotes itself to the Irish? You should only be devoting yourself to God I wonder if examples like these show Fundamentalis Protestants how absurb they sound when they say things like this, like it’s either/or rather than both/and, and how devoting yourself to anything good doesn’t take away from the Glory of God.

Oh, I wasn’t lashing back to you, I was adding my bit…
sorry if I came across the wrong way…

Oh, and by the way, that’s pretty good with the devotion to the Irish . Stop by and click the message boards link, you’ll see a Catholicism and Faith Forum. It’s kinda dead in there, but I’m having fun.

 

[imroc]

flameburns623:

For most Protestants the problems start right there. Prayer in Protestant understanding is not merely petition but also worship. Creatures are NOT to be worshipped.

Actually I did some research on the term worship. For the sake of confusion, I wouldn’t use the modern term worship when talking to a protestant, but it’s actually a deeper term that can be used in this matter.

There are reams of arguments on both sides about this. Protestants do not believe one can be ‘full of grace’. Grace is not a substance, like water, which one can have much of or little of. Grace is a verb not a noun: it is ‘favor’. Hence the preference of most Protestant translators for 'highly-favored one.
There is not holy except God.

She is not God’s mother. God has neither mother nor father. She is properly called ‘theotokos’, or ‘bearer of God’ insofar as Christ was both True God and True Man. But Mary was not the originator or source of Christ’s divinity, merely the bearer of it.

She can’t hear the request. She is dead–either in Hell or in Heaven. If she is in Hell she is neither inclined to pray for anyone on earth nor would her prayers be efficacious. If she is in Heaven she is beyond any knowledge of what is happening on Earth, indeed such an awareness would mar her beatific vision of God, to Whom alone she should be giving praise and glory.

Not trying to be rude but the question was asked.

 

[Superstar905]

imroc:

Oh, I wasn’t lashing back to you, I was adding my bit…
sorry if I came across the wrong way…

Oh, and by the way, that’s pretty good with the devotion to the Irish . Stop by and click the message boards link, you’ll see a Catholicism and Faith Forum. It’s kinda dead in there, but I’m having fun.

nah, never took it that way!!

 

[Superstar905]

For most Protestants the problems start right there. Prayer in Protestant understanding is not merely petition but also worship. Creatures are NOT to be worshipped.

Thats interesting, but if the angel Gabriel greeted Mary this way, does that mean that Gabriel was worshipping Mary? :tsktsk:

As for praying, praying is communication, and all Christians have done for 2000 years is ask those in heaven to pray for us, since it is obvious in scripture that they are still praying to God and worshipping him, and that they are well aware of what is happening on earth!!!

There are reams of arguments on both sides about this. Protestants do not believe one can be ‘full of grace’. Grace is not a substance, like water, which one can have much of or little of. Grace is a verb not a noun: it is ‘favor’. Hence the preference of most Protestant translators for ‘highly-favored one’.

Well, the exact translation is “Full of grace”…and you are wrong, one can have an abundance of graces bestowed on them, and one can have less grace, although all agree that it is good to be in a state of grace period.

There is not holy except God.

What? There are degree’s of Holyness, JohnPaul the Great was holy, our current pope is Holy, Mother Teresa was holy, etc, whats your issue with this?

She is not God’s mother. God has neither mother nor father. She is properly called ‘theotokos’, or ‘bearer of God’ insofar as Christ was both True God and True Man. But Mary was not the originator or source of Christ’s divinity, merely the bearer of it.

Is your mother the source of only your body, or did she also create your soul? Mary as “Mother of God”, says nothing of her being the originator or source of Christ’s divinity, but confirms Jesus being true man and true God. This was dealt at the council of Ephesus in 451AD, where heretics argued against the nature of Christ. You are in danger of falling into the same error by your stubborness to misconstrue the meaning of “Mother of God”.

She can’t hear the request. She is dead–either in Hell or in Heaven. If she is in Hell she is neither inclined to pray for anyone on earth nor would her prayers be efficacious. If she is in Heaven she is beyond any knowledge of what is happening on Earth, indeed such an awareness would mar her beatific vision of God, to Whom alone she should be giving praise and glory.

Not trying to be rude but the question was asked

Not rude at all, that is what you believe. Scripture is against you here, but your comment as to her being dead, is dead wrong, pun intended. All in Christ is alive, and those in heaven, more alive than ever, and their prayers “being perfectly righteous”, availeth much, and God is God of the living, not the dead. Scripture also shows that those in heaven know full well what is happening on earth.

I wonder, in reading your post, have you ever read scripture?

 

[Eireann]

Angelic Psalter

 

[mellysue]

As you can see by my signature I am protestant. I have no problem with the Our Father Prayer or the Glory to God, or even the prayer of Fatima.
I do not have issue with most of the Hail Mary.

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”
This is straight from the Bible - no protestant should have any problems with this part

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

The Holy part is what trips us up. We do not refer to anyone as holy except God. God alone is holy. Also, we do not believe in the intercessory prayer of saints on behalf of living or dead.
We could spend hours debating why, but there are many threads devoted to that. I do not think Catholics worship Mary like Christ. But I do disagree with having Mary pray on your behalf as an intercessory.
The last line is the only thing a protestant would have issue with.

Now, aren’t there several parts to the Hail Mary. I thought it was longer than this. I thought there was a section that started “Hail Holy Queen enthroned above”.

 

[RCCDefender]

mellysue:

…But I do disagree with having Mary pray on your behalf as an intercessory.
The last line is the only thing a protestant would have issue with.

Now, aren’t there several parts to the Hail Mary. I thought it was longer than this. I thought there was a section that started “Hail Holy Queen enthroned above”.

First, I would have to ask why, if it’s not okay to ask those in Heaven to pray for us, is it okay for those still here on Earth to pray for us?

Second, that’s all of the Hail Mary; however, there is a prayer at the end of the rosary called the Hail, Holy Queen.

 

[Mickey]

Luke 1(Douay-Rheims Bible)

26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

The last part is asking our Blessed Mother to pray for us. She is not dead—she is alive in Christ.

 

[Franz]

mellysue:

The Holy part is what trips us up. We do not refer to anyone as holy except God. God alone is holy. Also, we do not believe in the intercessory prayer of saints on behalf of living or dead.
We could spend hours debating why, but there are many threads devoted to that. I do not think Catholics worship Mary like Christ. But I do disagree with having Mary pray on your behalf as an intercessory.
The last line is the only thing a protestant would have issue with.

Now, aren’t there several parts to the Hail Mary. I thought it was longer than this. I thought there was a section that started “Hail Holy Queen enthroned above”.

Besides your problems with intercessory prayer, which as you said, there are many threads devoted to this, your problems with only God being Holy is kind of puzzeling. Do you not think that God’s holiness shines through his creations? Calling someone else “holy”, reflects Christ within them, thus God’s holiness.

Was the Old Ark of the Covenant Holy? Please answer this.

 

[mellysue]

Look. You for reasons why a protestant gets hung up by the rosary. I just told you why.
There are already a zillion threads debating what protestants/Catholics think/believe on Mary/prayer to Mary/Saints, etc…

Protestants in general don’t like the Hail Mary prayers because they are directed to (or sound like they are directed to) Mary herself. Protestants don’t believe in praying to anyone except God.

This is my view, and not necessarily the view of all or any other protestants: Holy means sinless, blameless. Right? No one is Holy except God. Yes, through Christ’s sacrifice I can be made holy in God’s sight, but I am not truly holy. Granted, God does see me as holy, but I don’t feel I should run around using that title. Out of humbleness I don’t use it for myself or anyone else except God. Instead, I may call myself righteous in the Lord, etc… but not Holy.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think anyone in the bible is called Holy except God. If I am wrong, I’ll be the first to admit it.

It would be interesting to look at all the instances that the English work holy occurs in the bible and see what the Greek/Hebrew is in relation.

 

[arieh0310]

mellysue:

The Holy part is what trips us up. We do not refer to anyone as holy except God. God alone is holy.

mellysue:

Holy means sinless, blameless. Right? No one is Holy except God. Yes, through Christ’s sacrifice I can be made holy in God’s sight, but I am not truly holy. Granted, God does see me as holy, but I don’t feel I should run around using that title. Out of humbleness I don’t use it for myself or anyone else except God. Instead, I may call myself righteous in the Lord, etc… but not Holy.

Leviticus 11:45
I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Hebrews 12:14
Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

1 Peter 1:13
Be Holy ] Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 Peter 1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do

Acts 3:21
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Acts 10:22
The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.”

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Ephesians 3:5
which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

Ephesians 5:27
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Colossians 1:2
To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

1 Thessalonians 2:10
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.

1 Thessalonians 3:13
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

…I could go on…

 

[mellysue]

Ok, I rephrase.

Is any person referred to as Holy. Because the church doesn’t call everyone in the congregation Holy. It seems this title is kept for Saints/Mary/Priests/Popes, etc…
You don’t call Joe Catholic down the pew holy joe. Right?
If we are Holy through christ, then we are all holy and can all be called Holy ( ). But the RC doesn’t do this. It seems that it uses Holy only for special positions. So obviously that Holy is different from the holy that applies to everyone else.

 

[MonicaC]

mellysue:

Ok, I rephrase.

Is any person referred to as Holy. Because the church doesn’t call everyone in the congregation Holy. It seems this title is kept for Saints/Mary/Priests/Popes, etc…
You don’t call Joe Catholic down the pew holy joe. Right?
If we are Holy through christ, then we are all holy and can all be called Holy ( ). But the RC doesn’t do this. It seems that it uses Holy only for special positions. So obviously that Holy is different from the holy that applies to everyone else.

Well I know a lot of people called my late Aunt holy. Not just now that she has passed away but also while she was alive. She spent her life loving God and everyone else. In fact the preist said this at her fureral mass. He along with so many others were touched by her goodness

 

[arieh0310]

mellysue:

Ok, I rephrase.

Is any person referred to as Holy. Because the church doesn’t call everyone in the congregation Holy. It seems this title is kept for Saints/Mary/Priests/Popes, etc…
You don’t call Joe Catholic down the pew holy joe. Right?
If we are Holy through christ, then we are all holy and can all be called Holy ( ). But the RC doesn’t do this. It seems that it uses Holy only for special positions. So obviously that Holy is different from the holy that applies to everyone else.

Yes, people in the Bible are routinely singled out as holy:

Matthew 27:52-53
The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Mark 6:20
because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled ; yet he liked to listen to him.

2 Kings 4:9
She said to her husband, "I know that this man [Elisha] who often comes our way is a holy man of God

There are other examples. I think the confusion between many Protestants and Catholics is that Protestants tend to think of holiness being a one-time exchange, a singular trading of our sinfulness with the holiness of Christ. Whereas, Catholics tend to think of holiness as a continual striving for the holiness of Christ through our good works. The source of righteousness is the same, we just tend to disagree as to whether our works play any role in our justification.

And just because Rome hasn’t officially canonized someone doesn’t mean that they didn’t lead a holy life.