Protestants Whats wrong with this prayer? = Rosary

[Neverland]

It’s getting more tense yet funnier,

Jimmy said:
Then you worshiped your mother every time you ask her for something because to pray(precor in Latin) means to beg or to ask. To simply call prayer worship that is only due to God is to degrade the true worship which God deserves. Plus, as you said it is your opinion.

Many words are used for different purposes. I ask you one thing, do you PRAY to your mother??? we pray to the ULTIMATE BEING namely God.
Have you ever said: I pray to my mother for money because I need it. NO, you simply said I ASK my mother.
Please don’t confuse and twist language just for the sake of debate. Now I ask you again. If we PRAY to other than God for something, do you think it’s right or not? Once again, it’s depend on interpretation, and I have told before that I dislike judging other, and I only react to some people urging us to DO Rosary Prayer.

Jimmy said:
So, Jesus never told you to read a book called the bible. So, I better not hear of you reading a bible. What do you mean in our bible? Do you mean the protestant bible? Excuse me but I could cut out every book of the bible except Malachi, call that my bible and say, “find that in my bible.” You would find very little.

Oh, Jesus said that whoever wanted to be His disciples should follow him, follow his teaching. The teaching is in the Bible. I don’t know why but even this very simple reasoning cannot come to your mind.
And I don’t know how you dislike Protestant. I daresay no CRITICAL DIFFERENCES in the Bible used in Catholic Church and Protestant Church. There are some which is not in Protestant Bible like Tabitha, etc,but the ESSENCE of the Bible are the same. But of course, we don’t have Mary Magdalene Gospel and such.

Jimmy said:
Please show me the passage and then we will talk about it.

Hmm, ok. That’s my homework. Don’t worry, I will find it fast when I have time to open my Bible.

Jimmy said:
I don’t forget anything, I just remember the whole teaching of Christ and His Church. Jesus has saved mankind, that doesn’t affect prayer to Mary or the saints

I will not comment on this, but you failed to show me which part of YOUR Bible mentioning about praying through Mary and the Saints.

Jimmy said:
My intent was not to say that it was wrong to pray to only Christ. My intent was against those who are anti-prayer to saints. In otherwords I was speaking to those who think prayer to the saints is idolatry or wrong in some way.

I told you, I don’t intend to judge Catholic for doing Rosary Prayers, but if you then insist and ask the protestant WHY the protestants don’t do Rosary Prayer, then you have already found my answer. Who am I to say you are right or wrong. Only God can judge us, human.

So I only owe you the verses about the dead and the living. I would rather PM you. I hope this ridiculous statement that asking FUNDAMENTAL PROTESTANT will finish eventually.

 

[jimmy]

Neverland:

It’s getting more tense yet funnier,

Jimmy said:
Then you worshiped your mother every time you ask her for something because to pray(precor in Latin) means to beg or to ask. To simply call prayer worship that is only due to God is to degrade the true worship which God deserves. Plus, as you said it is your opinion.

Many words are used for different purposes. I ask you one thing, do you PRAY to your mother??? we pray to the ULTIMATE BEING namely God.

Whether you call it prayer when you make an exhortation to your mother or not, that is what it is. To pray is equivalent to ask or to beg.

Have you ever said: I pray to my mother for money because I need it. NO, you simply said I ASK my mother.

Have you ever seen the statement “pray tell.” It is often used in the English language. It is used less now than it was a hundred years ago, but it is still the same.

Please don’t confuse and twist language just for the sake of debate. Now I ask you again.

Don’t accuse me of twisting language. Read a dictionary. Learn latin. Here is what William Witakers words says about “precor”.

beg/implore/entreat; wish/pray for/to; pray, supplicate, beseech;
catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?precor
Here is a web definition of to pray

beg: call upon in supplication; entreat; “I beg you to stop!”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=pray%between%
Learn your language before you accuse me of twisting words.

If we PRAY to other than God for something, do you think it’s right or not? Once again, it’s depend on interpretation, and I have told before that I dislike judging other, and I only react to some people urging us to DO Rosary Prayer.

I never urged you to do anything, in fact I never addressed any posts to you until you responded to me. If you don’t want to pray the Rosary then don’t.

Oh, Jesus said that whoever wanted to be His disciples should follow him, follow his teaching. The teaching is in the Bible. I don’t know why but even this very simple reasoning cannot come to your mind.

Christ exhorted the people to follow Him. He also said that those who do not hear the Church shall be anathema and as a publican. He never called you to read a book in the same way He never called you to pray through anyone else. Until you show me where He says read the bible because that is the sole source then your statement that He was silent on prayer to saints means nothing.

And I don’t know how you dislike Protestant. I daresay no CRITICAL DIFFERENCES in the Bible used in Catholic Church and Protestant Church. There are some which is not in Protestant Bible like Tabitha, etc,but the ESSENCE of the Bible are the same. But of course, we don’t have Mary Magdalene Gospel and such.

Most of the bible is the same, but for you to say to use your bible to prove it is to remove certain books like, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, Baruch, and 1 and 2 Machabees. It is an incomplete bible. I will prove my faith from the whole bible.

Hmm, ok. That’s my homework. Don’t worry, I will find it fast when I have time to open my Bible.

I look forward to it.

I will not comment on this, but you failed to show me which part of YOUR Bible mentioning about praying through Mary and the Saints.

I did not fail to mention anything. Paul exhorts the people in every single letter to pray for eachother. He tells them he is praying for each of them. James says the prayers of a just man availeth us much. Those in heaven are not removeed from the Church but are made more radical parts of it. Since they are part of the Church it is still their job to pray for each other member of the Church.

So I only owe you the verses about the dead and the living. I would rather PM you. I hope this ridiculous statement that asking FUNDAMENTAL PROTESTANT will finish eventually.

I will be waiting for your PM.

God bless.

 

[George_Waters]

Neverland:

The teaching is in the Bible.

Neverland,

The teachings of Jesus are not restricted to the Bible. In fact we are told in the Bible to keep the traditions passed down to us from the apostles (something the Presbyterian church I grew up in liked to ignore) and the Bible mentions books that are not in either the Catholic or Protestant canon.

Peace,

George

 

[Eireann]

George Waters:

Neverland,

The teachings of Jesus are not restricted to the Bible. In fact we are told in the Bible to keep the traditions passed down to us from the apostles (something the Presbyterian church I grew up in liked to ignore) and the Bible mentions books that are not in either the Catholic or Protestant canon.

Peace,

George

True, Second Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Thessalonians

6** And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. ** Source

 

[MonicaC]

Neverland:

I will not comment on this, but you failed to show me which part of YOUR Bible mentioning about praying through Mary and the Saints.

So I only owe you the verses about the dead and the living. I would rather PM you. I hope this ridiculous statement that asking FUNDAMENTAL PROTESTANT will finish eventually.

Well we are waiting for your next post to show us were your bible shows us not to pray to the saints I thougtht I would post an article on prayer to the saints. There are plainty of bible verse that explain the view of praying to the saints.

The Intercession of the Saints

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

I look foward to your reply.

Monica

 

[SolaChristo]

You asked for my opinion so Ill give it. But after I give it a Ill leave it for you have your own opinions.

1. Do not pray as the heathen do in vain repetitions.
2. Jesus gave us a blueprint of how to pray, it was not the rosary.
3. Mary is not the Mother ofGod, how can God have a mother?
4. We make the death and resurrection of Jesus to no affect as we are no longer orphans but sons and daughters of the Most High God and able to boldly go to His throne of grace and petition Him directly.

 

[arieh0310]

SolaChristo:

You asked for my opinion so Ill give it. But after I give it a Ill leave it for you have your own opinions.

1. Do not pray as the heathen do in vain repetitions.

Have you ever read some of the Psalms, like Psalm 150? They can be quite repetitious.

1. Jesus gave us a blueprint of how to pray, it was not the rosary.

Nor did he give us the “sinners prayer”, nor the doctrine of the Trinity, nor the Bible’s table of contents.

1. Mary is not the Mother ofGod, how can God have a mother?

Just because your mother didn’t create your soul doesn’t mean she isn’t your mother. She is the mother of your whole person, the same applies to Mary.

1. We make the death and resurrection of Jesus to no affect as we are no longer orphans but sons and daughters of the Most High God and able to boldly go to His throne of grace and petition Him directly.

Then I suggest (in order for you to be fully consistent in your argument) to never ask another Christian to pray to God for you again.

 

[Anglican77]

imroc:

Anglican, would you pray for me?

Of course, but I would pray to God for you, not anyone else. I know where you’re going with this, but I don’t ask the dead to pray for me. We pray for the dead, so that their souls may be saved.

I’m not saying it’s a bad thing or that I have any problem with it, I just don’t do it and was never taught to do it.

 

[arieh0310]

Anglican77:

We pray for the dead, so that their souls may be saved.

If the prayers of people on earth help those who have died, why wouldn’t the prayers of those alive in Christ in heaven help those on earth?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

arieh0310:

I was a staunch anti-Catholic evangelical protestant until I was forced to answer some bible verses that seemed awefully Catholic. I came to realize that Catholicism was thoroughly biblical. The writtings of the earliest Christians were also instrumental in my conversion, so not only was Catholicism biblical it was also historical.

Hi there, which verses? And where do read the writings of the early church fathers?(earliest Christians). Which ones were you referring to?

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response.

 

[arieh0310]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi there, which verses? And where do read the writings of the early church fathers?(earliest Christians). Which ones were you referring to?

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response.

I don’t wish to distract from the OP, so if you want more info please message me or start a new thread. But, below are just a sampling of passages (and yes, the early church fathers were instrumental).

Tradition: “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15)

Peterine Primacy: “Jesus replied, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’” (Matt. 16:17-19)

Baptismal regeneration:“Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit’” (John 3:5)

Real presence: “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.’”

Confession: “‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23)

Relics: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them” (Acts 19:11-12)

There are many, many more…

 

[Anglican77]

arieh0310:

If the prayers of people on earth help those who have died, why wouldn’t the prayers of those alive in Christ in heaven help those on earth?

I just don’t believe that the dead can pray. Won’t we only have eternal life once Christ comes again? Perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[SolaChristo]

arieh0310:

Have you ever read some of the Psalms, like Psalm 150? They can be quite repetitious.

**Psalms 150: 1 - 6 - Study This Chapter

1 Praise the Lord! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty firmament! 2 Praise Him for His mighty acts; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness! 3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! 4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! 5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals! 6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord! **

Nor did he give us the “sinners prayer”, nor the doctrine of the Trinity, nor the Bible’s table of contents.

But when His disciples asked Him how to pray He said in this manner

Just because your mother didn’t create your soul doesn’t mean she isn’t your mother. She is the mother of your whole person, the same applies to Mary.

Mary was the Mother of a tent of flesh not the Mother of God

Then I suggest (in order for you to be fully consistent in your argument) to never ask another Christian to pray to God for you again.

So are you capable of going boldly before the throne of God?

 

[arieh0310]

Anglican77:

I just don’t believe that the dead can pray. Won’t we only have eternal life once Christ comes again? Perhaps I am mistaken.

Elijah and Moses were hanging out with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Abraham and Lazarus are conversing with the rich man about warning the rich man’s brothers of hell. The righteous dead are raised to life and start appearing to people after Jesus dies on the cross. The martyrs in heaven (in Revelation) are crying out to God for justice on earth.

 

[arieh0310]

SolaChristo:

Psalms 150: 1 - 6 - Study This Chapter

Are you saying that I haven’t?

SolaChristo:

But when His disciples asked Him how to pray He said in this manner

To the exclusion of all other types of prayer and intercession?

SolaChristo:

Mary was the Mother of a tent of flesh not the Mother of God

Did Chirst come out in two pieces? True, Mary gave Jesus His human nature and God gave Him His divine nature, but he came out of the womb as one divine person. Jesus was fully God and fully human and the two natures are distinct but inseperable, and Mary was His mother. There are many Protestant theologians (like RC Sproul) that have no problem with the title “Mother of God”.

SolaChristo:

So are you capable of going boldly before the throne of God?

You bet!!! Keep in mind that when a Catholic (or Orthodox, or Armenian, or Coptic, etc…basically 75%+ of all Christians) prays to a saint there is no worship involved, it is simply a petition. For example, a Catholic may say, “Mary pray for me that I may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. Which is similar to a Protestant going to a brother in Christ and saying, “Pastor Bill please pray to God for me that I may be strengthened in the Lord”. Neither petition distracts from worship and devotion to God, and neither petition decreases the frequency to which I approach God directly in pray. It isn’t either/or in either circumstance.

 

[Kendy]

arieh0310:

Are you saying that I haven’t?

To the exclusion of all other types of prayer and intercession?

Did Chirst come out in two pieces? True, Mary gave Jesus His human nature and God gave Him His divine nature, but he came out of the womb as one divine person. Jesus was fully God and fully human and the two natures are distinct but inseperable, and Mary was His mother. There are many Protestant theologians (like RC Sproul) that have no problem with the title “Mother of God”.

You bet!!! Keep in mind that when a Catholic (or Orthodox, or Armenian, or Coptic, etc…basically 75%+ of all Christians) prays to a saint there is no worship involved, it is simply a petition. For example, a Catholic may say, “Mary pray for me that I may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. Which is similar to a Protestant going to a brother in Christ and saying, “Pastor Bill please pray to God for me that I may be strengthened in the Lord”. Neither petition distracts from worship and devotion to God, and neither petition decreases the frequency to which I approach God directly in pray. It isn’t either/or in either circumstance.

But I would never kneel in front of my pastor to ask him this. I have seen catholics kneel before statues for Mary when they pray to her.

Kendy

 

[arieh0310]

Kendy:

But I would never kneel in front of my pastor to ask him this. I have seen catholics kneel before statues for Mary when they pray to her.

Kendy

1 Kings 1:31
Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, “May my lord King David live forever!”

Genesis 18:2
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

Genesis 19:1
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed ] The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites.

1 Samuel 20:41
After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together—but David wept the most.

There are plenty more examples. I think it is hard for us Americans to understand the appropriateness of honoring others in this way when we don’t live in a monarchy. Honor is not the same as worship.

 

[SolaChristo]

arieh0310:

Are you saying that I haven’t?

That was a cut and paste job from Crosswalk which had the sudy this chapter link—I pasted Psalm 150 to show the contrast to the rosary

To the exclusion of all other types of prayer and intercession?

The question should be asked why the rosary is so promenent when there is so many other forms of prayer? Not only the Lords Prayer but the bible is full of prayers that can be prayed on your own behalf.

Did Chirst come out in two pieces? True, Mary gave Jesus His human nature and God gave Him His divine nature, but he came out of the womb as one divine person. Jesus was fully God and fully human and the two natures are distinct but inseperable, and Mary was His mother. There are many Protestant theologians (like RC Sproul) that have no problem with the title “Mother of God”.

Mary is the mother of Jesus’ human nature not the mother of jesus devine nature therefore not the mother of God.

You bet!!! Keep in mind that when a Catholic (or Orthodox, or Armenian, or Coptic, etc…basically 75%+ of all Christians) prays to a saint there is no worship involved, it is simply a petition. For example, a Catholic may say, “Mary pray for me that I may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. Which is similar to a Protestant going to a brother in Christ and saying, “Pastor Bill please pray to God for me that I may be strengthened in the Lord”. Neither petition distracts from worship and devotion to God, and neither petition decreases the frequency to which I approach God directly in pray. It isn’t either/or in either circumstance.

Its a matter of perspective. When prayer is needed do you pray for someone to pray for you or does one have the assurance that he can petetion God, thus a believer goes first to God on their own behalf not goes to someone else first thing

 

[Malachi4U]

I also was also able to free myself from the clutches of the Baptist sect after 26 adult years in it. I am now Catholic by ‘Desire’! Praise God! I have seen the light and come home to His visible body, His Catholic Church. Anyway, I wrote a letter to my “EX”-baptist preacher to point out some flaws in what he taught about Catholics and what his AWANA teachers said about Catholics too.

Just a portion:

"Question: Do Roman Catholics pray to Blessed Mary and why do they always seem to use the word ‘Blessed’ in her name?

Answer: First lets define what pray, worship, venerate and adore mean to Roman Catholics as it is often used differently by Protestants or even foreigners in our country. I used ‘Merriam Webster’s Dictionary’ for definitions as needed.

Pray means ‘to ask’ or make a humble request. By this definition prayer does not have to be directed to God alone. So Roman Catholics do pray to Blessed Mary since it is only a humble request and nothing more.

Worship means reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; an act of expressing such reverence, a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual, extravagant respect or admiration or devotion. By definition we can worship someone deserving of our admiration or devotion even though they are not God by any means. We can also worship God. So Roman Catholics do worship God and worship Blessed Mary also. There is nothing at all wrong with this Tradition using this definition. Catholics DO NOT worship Mary the way Baptists worship God.

Venerate means to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference or to honor with a ritual act of devotion. Based on this Roman Catholics do in fact venerate Blessed Mary as well as our parents, great people in history like the apostles, and Christian martyrs. These people have a special place in our hearts.

Adore means to worship or honor as a deity or as divine with loving admiration and devotion. Based on this definition Roman Catholics adore God and God alone!

Honor a showing of usually merited respect or one whose worth brings respect or fame. Catholics honor Mary. Why do Baptists not?"

Protestants and Catholics use the same words but sometimes in different ways.

Here is an example. When I was at work this year I said I was looking foward to Good Friday. Two of my Baptist coworkers said, “You Catholics call it ‘good’ but there was nothing good that happened on it. That’s the day they killed Jesus!”

Well I was stumped so I did some research. Perhaps Baptists should do some too sometime. It turns out that in Old English (Like in the KJV the Baptists use but fail to understand the very language) Good meant Holy. So it would translate today as Holy Friday. Jesus died for our sins on this day which makes it a very Holy Friday indeed. This is a good example of how the Catholic Religion is 2,000 years old and the Baptist sect is usually no older then when their preacher started preaching whatever it is that he preaches today. Catholics have a Tradition with 2,000 years of experience. Baptisits have a tradition with of only the age of their preacher that just repeats itself over and over and over going bak only 400 years at most.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mickey]

SolaChristo:

Its a matter of perspective. When prayer is needed do you pray for someone to pray for you or does one have the assurance that he can petetion God, thus a believer goes first to God on their own behalf not goes to someone else first thing

Absoutely. But the more prayer, the better!