Protestants - When did the Catholic Church Begin?

[abcd]

Of course Calvinists claim this. That doesn’t make it true. It’s truer of Calvinism than of Lutheranism, but not entirely true of either. The cardinal Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone is not found in Augustine–in fact it is arguably Augustine who is responsible for killing off whatever form of “sola fide” one can find in earlier Christian writers. Augustine replaced a faith/works dichotomy with a grace/free will dichotomy. The peculiarity of the Reformation was to combine these two.

He did not teach limited atonement.

Wrong. The Catholic Church does not deny predestination, although there are various opinions on the subject within Catholicism, and the most Augustinian school of Catholic theology has a much more nuanced view than Calvinism does. As for “irresistible grace”–it depends on how you define it. The Thomist doctrine of “efficient grace” does essentially the same work as the Calvinist “irresistible grace”–it’s just expressed in a subtler way and attempts to leave room for free will. Catholics do deny limited atonement, but this isn’t an Augustinian doctrine. It’s not even clear that Calvin himself taught it.

Warfield is a dubious guide to the interpretation of St. Augustine.

Edwin

Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine’s writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: “The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?”
He also stated, “The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins.”

 

[NotWorthy]

What does this prove? The Catholic Church declares that they are the one true Church and that all other groups are mere ecclesiatical bodies, not churches. Yet, if you simply inquired of a local person, “Can you give me directiosn to the nearest church?” do you think they would only point you toward Catholic Churches?

I was simply responding to those that claim they are the catholic church. When asked, they don’t give directions to their own churches, they send them to St. So-and-so’s.

The rest of your argument is not germane to the argument.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think I should precisely why it is a part of this thread. The thread titled: Protestants – When did the Catholic Church begin. From my protestant persepctive, the Catholic Church began when it quit being representative of all of Christiandom. And since the quesiton is actually addressed to protestants, perhaps answers from Catholics are what belongs in another thread.

You can’t separate Catholic Church from history from its meaning. The Church in the beginning was one and it always had a Pope, and Jesus is the head of this Church.

No, I’m sorry to tell you that this is just propaganda. It isn’t really the truth.

According to you it is propaganda. This is not propaganda. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations are for Protestants not Catholics.

You mean there is no division in the instution that has its headquarters in Rome. There certainly is a division in the Church. And this division goes back to long before Protestantism arrived on the scene. In fact, it was divisions in the Church that brought about the calling of councils to discuss and resolve those differences. Some of them were more successful than others. To ignore this reality is to ignore the history of your own church let alone the history of the whole Church.

Council resolve issued and the Church has that infallibility authority.

Again, I have to disagree with you. They are. The term Catholic Church is a title, denoting the institutional otganization that recognizes the Pope as head of a body politic (a religious organization). You may wish to claim that it is universal, but it clearly isn’t in anyone eyes accept its own. There are other Christians in the world who are not a part of this organization known as the Catholic Church and yet they are indeed Christians and even recognizes as such by the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is not a political institution. It is a Church, it is an eccessial community made of the laity, and religious. The Catholic Church in fact is the largest body of Christian believers.

Hence, because they are Christians they are part of the body of Christ. And this body of Christ is what Jesus instuted as the Church. When we talk about all of the people in the world who are part of this Church that Jesus instituted we are talking about the universal Church of Jesus Christ, not just the Catholic Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Catholic means universal. You can’t separate universal from Catholic. The two have the same meaning. You aren’t Catholic. I am. Unless you want to claim monopoly of the title Catholic, then convert and become Catholic like the rest of us.

Because the term universal and catholic (as an adjective, not a name) are synonyms, it is appropriate to refer to all persons who are in Christ as part of the catholic Church, but it is not appropriate to refer to anyone but members of the organization that sees its head as the Pope to be members of the Catholic Church.

Whether you want to deny this fact. You are a member of my Church because of your baptism. The Catechism makes this clear. Your union is imperfect because your church does not have the full means of salvation.

Precisely. These are names that link these things with the instituation organization that goes by the name of the Catholic Church, which, as I just described above is not the same as the catholic Church.

It is the same. You cannot separate Catholic Church from ‘catholic church.’ You make this so confusing. You are claiming the Catholic Church in history is not the same catholic church of today. That is a false statement.

Protestants don;t claim the term “Catholic” at all. What we claim is that used of the term “catholic” cannot be limited exclusive to those who are Catholics, but must (if we are using the term correctly) be inclusive of all who belong to the body of Christ, which is to say the entire universal Church or all Christians of every background, doctrine, faith, stripe, denomination, or even apart from any denomination.

Protestants have denominations. Catholics are Catholic in communion with the Pope. Protestants aren’t Catholic.

Indeed, some people would go at length to omit the word “Catholic” from the Apostles Creed. I am one of them. But I am very happy to affirm that I do believe in the holy “catholic” and apostolic church (again “catholic” meaning universal, not the name of any ecclesiastical body), for I not only believe in it but am a part of it.

But your communion is imperfect because you have no Pope.

A question I might ask you is if you really understand what it means to say that you believe in the “catholic church”? I’m not sure that you do. For if you did, you could not say that the “Catholic Church” was the one true Church. How can it be the one true church when it does NOT include in its membership those who are not Catholic. You see the problem is that the Catholic Church isn’t actually catholic because it isn’t universal. But you seem to be so close to this that you are blind to the irony of it all. I feel sorry for you. But, it isn’t a matter that is essential to salvation, so if you die not knowing any better, it won’t effect your eternal destiny one way or the other.

The Catholic Church is both visible and invisible. The Catholic Church exist today as it existed 2,000 yrs ago. This Church has sucessor of St. Peter, and his name is Pope Benedict XVI. Our Church professes the Nicene Creed, and the only means of salvation is through Jesus Christ who is the source of all goodness. The Catholic Church of today has parishes not limited to Rome. It is in the Americas, Europe, Africa, Asia, India.

Your claim that the Catholic Church isn’t actually catholic because it isn’t universal is a false statement. The ECF then is Catholic. We honor the saints of the ECF, we honor Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Ireneaus, Athanasius, John Chrystodom, and others. These ECF belief believed in the Real Presence, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, the sinlessness of Mary, the sacrifice of the Mass, the Confession of Sins, the need to baptise, and baptize infants, praying for the dead. Protestants have abandon these ancient beliefs.

The mere fact that you do not acknowledge that the Catholic Church is not the same as historical Church is because your forefathers of the Reformers caused the division. Instead of maintaining full communion with Rome, your ancestors abandon the Successor of St. Peter.

In essence, the so called universality has become incomplete with the coming of the Protestants. It is shameful for me to think that humanity allowed this to happened. If I had my way, I would have stop those heretics from abandoning the Truth Church of Christ.

Christians are no different than the Jews, who grow stubborn as they did in Meriba and Massah. Christians who separated themselves from the Pope, think only of themselves rather than listen to the servant of God. They insult the Pope like they insult Moses.

The Protestants will have a lot to answer for this division when God comes in all his glory. I dare not ponder on that because I think they will earn their just reward.

 

[NotWorthy]

Which of 6 the 7 churches of Asia in Revelation are illegitimate?

This question says it all.

They are all one Church - the Catholic Church.

.

 

[NotWorthy]

Maybe I should have put it another way. What is the meaning of the word “church” mean to a Catholic? I would really like an answer.

There is the True Church, the entire Catholic Church.

In each locale, there is a local Church. All of the local catholic parishes (or churches) are a part of that local Church. These are called a diocese. The bishop is the head of that local Church. In the Roman Catholic Church, all of these local Church’s are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Memaw]

Sorry that you do not know the answer to my statement.

I guess that add another thousand years to my time in purgatory.

At this rate, you’ll be gladly looking forward till the End of the World.
And the End of purgatory.

 

[abcd]

At this rate, you’ll be gladly looking forward till the End of the World.
And the End of purgatory.

:harp:

 

[ahem]

This question says it all.

They are all one Church - the Catholic Church.

.

Then why does the text use the term “churches?” The post to which I was responding suggests that the term is wrong.

It is erroneous to presume that all churches were conscious of the existence of all other churches. Then, as now, we are surprised to come upon believers in newly-visited locations, and rather than judging them we celebrate their existence. It’s amazing how wonderfully the gospel travels.

I was beyond a remote southern African village and saw, painted on a small building, “Tupac Lives,” and a church nearby. With no radios, tvs, newpapers, postage service or missionaries, both hiphop and the church lived.

Just as no single record label can take credit for the graffiti, no organization can take credit for all churches.

But I don’t disallow any churches. I am not anti- any of them. I am pro-Orthodox, pro-Catholic, pro-Protestant, and pro-many other traditions (even though my opinion is that the longest extant is Orthodox).

 

[ahem]

I am so glad that I have friends who are Catholic. It gives me hope that they are not insecure, combative or defensive.

The tone of some of our posters here is what causes some non-faithful to point their fingers and claim that they are more civil than we are.

 

[abcd]

I am so glad that I have friends who are Catholic. It gives me hope that they are not insecure, combative or defensive.

The tone of some of our posters here is what causes some non-faithful to point their fingers and claim that they are more civil than we are.

I
I have many devout Catholic friends that I have coffee with three times a week at the local donut shop and they are cordial and are all universalist.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then why does the text use the term “churches?” The post to which I was responding suggests that the term is wrong.

The term churches is used primarily because to describe a different church community such as a place of location. Like how would you describe a parish located in San Antonio, and New York.

It is erroneous to presume that all churches were conscious of the existence of all other churches. Then, as now, we are surprised to come upon believers in newly-visited locations, and rather than judging them we celebrate their existence. It’s amazing how wonderfully the gospel travels.

It is not erroneous. The thing is despite where the Church is located. The Early Church maintains the neccessity of the bishop, priests, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at the Holy Mass or Divine Liturgy, the avoiding apostasy, schisms, such as those mentioned by St. Ignatius of Antioch.

I was beyond a remote southern African village and saw, painted on a small building, “Tupac Lives,” and a church nearby. With no radios, tvs, newpapers, postage service or missionaries, both hiphop and the church lived.

Just as no single record label can take credit for the graffiti, no organization can take credit for all churches.

But I don’t disallow any churches. I am not anti- any of them. I am pro-Orthodox, pro-Catholic, pro-Protestant, and pro-many other traditions (even though my opinion is that the longest extant is Orthodox).

The point is clear. the Catholic Church has its beginnings with the foundation of the Apostles, with Jesus Christ as its chief cornerstone. They had one doctrine of the faith and they come on the first day of the week breaking bread.

St. Justin Martyr describe the early Christian worship. He said the following:

**No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.

We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.

The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.

The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.**

This is a description of the Mass or Divine Liturgy in 150 AD. Christians worship this way and the Church then was the Catholic Church. The source is crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/532/Sunday_Eucharist_St._Justin_Martyr.html

 

[rpp]

I am so glad that I have friends who are Catholic. It gives me hope that they are not insecure, combative or defensive.

The tone of some of our posters here is what causes some non-faithful to point their fingers and claim that they are more civil than we are.

I
I have many devout Catholic friends that I have coffee with three times a week at the local donut shop and they are cordial and are all universalist.

“And some of my best friends are [insert term here].”

 

[Filius99993]

Your words do not seem to match Metro’s or numerous others who have made the insane accusation. My Church of Christ friend tells me 350Ad. I show him where the Church taught something before this, and he just moves the date back. He finally has conceded that the Church went into apostasy in the first century.

His sentiments seem to echo numerous others - yours seems to be the exception.

It’s funny that Protestants think that the Catholic Church is an apostasy when their own churches have broken away from the Church. I mean, how can they POSSIBLY claim their church to be the true one when the “real” church broke up centuries before their churches existed?

 

[ahem]

The term churches is used primarily because to describe a different church community such as a place of location. Like how would you describe a parish located in San Antonio, and New York.

Even if I accepted that the Roman Catholic Church was the only real or original church, which as you can tell, is not my belief (please don’t be offended–free exchange of ideas), if I describe a parish biblically it would be like you wrote: San Antonio, and New York, not “St. Anthony’s” or “Our Lady of Guadalupe” and such, because there are many such names in our single neighborhood.
Mannyfit75;3342846It is not erroneous:

. The thing is despite where the Church is located. The Early Church maintains the neccessity of the bishop, priests, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at the Holy Mass or Divine Liturgy, the avoiding apostasy, schisms, such as those mentioned by St. Ignatius of Antioch. The point is clear. the Catholic Church has its beginnings with the foundation of the Apostles, with Jesus Christ as its chief cornerstone. They had one doctrine of the faith and they come on the first day of the week breaking bread.

I accept Catholics joyfully, even though I don’t think a separate priesthood from the priesthood of believers is legitimate, because I see multiple problems in all expressions of the church, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or any other tradition or culture.

 

[ahem]

It’s funny that Protestants think that the Catholic Church is an apostasy when their own churches have broken away from the Church. I mean, how can they POSSIBLY claim their church to be the true one when the “real” church broke up centuries before their churches existed?

That is sadly, the point of view of many Protestants. I am one who does not fit the schema of Protestant because I am not anti-Catholic. I think every tradition has its problems and in order to communicate with informed pagans/unbelievers we must be willing to acknowledge our flaws but the perfection of the King.

This may be why Jesus’ commission is to proclaim the Kingdom of God, not the church.

 

[Filius99993]

That is sadly, the point of view of many Protestants. I am one who does not fit the schema of Protestant because I am not anti-Catholic. I think every tradition has its problems and in order to communicate with informed pagans/unbelievers we must be willing to acknowledge our flaws but the perfection of the King.

This may be why Jesus’ commission is to proclaim the Kingdom of God, not the church.

True, but he did found the Church. Remember, Peter as the rock? We’re still around, you know! I just find it very hypocritical of what so many Protestants are doing (but not you, thankfully.)

 

[ahem]

True, but he did found the Church. Remember, Peter as the rock? We’re still around, you know! I just find it very hypocritical of what so many Protestants are doing (but not you, thankfully.)

Jesus did establish the church, but my point was that the message of the church is not the church, but the kingdom. When we preach a church, we are off-message, and alienate unbelievers/pagans by our blindness to our own deficiencies and spotty history.

I am glad that you appreciate that I do not consider the Roman Catholic church apostate.

 

[Memaw]

Olivermax;3340595:

“History” doesn’t give them these monikers. (“History” is not a person!) English-speaking “Whig” Protestants have given them these monikers.

What work of historical scholarship in the past 50 years uses these terms?

Edwin

What about King Henry VIII, what makes you think that God would pick a man with 6 wives, who killed those he wanted to get out of his way for the next wife, to reform HIS Church, You gotta be kiddin me…Thats Historical scholarship???

 

[Grace_Seeker]

The Catholic Church is not a political institution. It is a Church, it is an eccessial community made of the laity, and religious. The Catholic Church in fact is the largest body of Christian believers.

Calm down Manny, you’re going to blow a gasket.

First, do you know the definition of “politcal”?

It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with political parties like Republicans and Democrats. In fact, the reason those groups are called “political” rests in the very same meaning of the word that is why I said the Catholic Church is a political institution – they are filled with people that are like-minded enough to form a common community, in this case the Catholic Church.

It comes from the word polis meaning a state or society characterized by a sense of community. Are you going to tell me that the Catholic Church is not a society characterized by a sense of community? You yourself said it is an ecclessial community (i.e. a common assembly) made up of the laity (the people) and religious. Every discrete body of people is in some way or another a political entity. Hence, since the Catholic Church is the largest body of Christian believers, it is indeed a discrete body of people (I’m making the assumption that the believers we are talking about are people), it therefore is a political entity.

As far is it being an institution, the Catholic Church regularly speaks of itself this way, so I’m not going to try to explain that to you.

So, given that it is a political entity and it is an institution it follows that it is a political institution.

But the other thing that is interesting in what you said is that you once again, albeit unknowingly, gave credence to my description of what is the catholic Church as distinct from the Catholic Church. In saying,

The Catholic Church in fact is the largest body of Christian believers.

You imply that the Cathoilic Churc is not the only body of Christian believers. If there are other bodies of Christian believers, there is something in Christendom that is bigger than the Catholic Church to which both the Catholic Church belongs (as the biggest body) and these other believers belong all at the same time. What are you going to call it? Is it not the body of Christ, the assembly of those who belong to Christ, i.e. the ecclesia or Church. And if it includes everyone both Catholic and others, then it is universal. And if it is universal, it is, by definition, catholic. Hence this other group to which the Catholic Church belongs and includes non-Catholic believers as well, is the one true catholic Church.

Thank you for doing such a good job of making my point for me.