Protestants - When did the Catholic Church Begin?

[NotWorthy]

Goodness, can we at least agree on this? If the Catholic Church is a man-made tradition, can someone at least tell me when the Catholic Church over-hauled the True Church?

And where was the True Church for the next X-hundred years until the Reformation could bring it back to light?

I read this on a post from yesterday:

METROLINK13:

History does not bear such out though. The Catholic Church as a distinctive body
cannot be historically traced beyond approximately A.D. 606.

 

[michaeldaniels]

I don’t think you will have any takers…because it is not factually possible to disprove the Catholic Church’s existence…it has always existed from the time Christ handed St. Peter the Keys to Heaven…Anyone saying otherwise, is in grave error.

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t think you will have any takers…because it is not factually possible to disprove the Catholic Church’s existence…it has always existed from the time Christ handed St. Peter the Keys to Heaven…Anyone saying otherwise, is in grave error.

Well, yeah, of course. But that didn’t stop our good Metrolink13 from making the claim. I’ve heard numerous claims, but there’s got to be a *something *that they claim to make that link.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Goodness, can we at least agree on this? If the Catholic Church is a man-made tradition, can someone at least tell me when the Catholic Church over-hauled the True Church?

And where was the True Church for the next X-hundred years until the Reformation could bring it back to light?

I read this on a post from yesterday:

That is far from the true. The Catholic Church was first recorded in St. Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans. In that Apostolic Letter, he wrote;

Chapter 8:

**See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

This is was written in 110 AD. I think Church Militant pointed out that in the Greek word, the word Catholic can also be found in Acts. I forgot which chapter or verse.

The Catholic Church also trace its history to St. Peter, who Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom too. Jesus founded the Catholic Church not mere human beings.

 

[annem]

The Catholic Church was first recorded in St. Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans.

Hi, I agree that that was the first real mention of the Catholic church with the word ‘Catholic’. But St. Paul’s letter are full of him pleading with his congregations to follow the “tradition” that he and others had taught him. He can hardly mention scripture since the gospels hadn’t yet been written. But it strikes me that all the writings of the first century AD and through most of the second century are Catholic since they all ask the followers of Christ to follow the tradition that has been taught them and to follow their bishops. Cries to follow scripture didn’t arrive until around one thousand five hundred years after the death of Jesus.

God bless, Annem

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I once had a Protestant (Assemblies of God, I think) tell me he thought that the Catholic Church went into error with Saint Peter when Jesus was still on the earth and the Church never came back!!!

Some people just have no historical, biblical, or common sense.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Goodness, can we at least agree on this? If the Catholic Church is a man-made tradition, can someone at least tell me when the Catholic Church over-hauled the True Church?

And where was the True Church for the next X-hundred years until the Reformation could bring it back to light?

I read this on a post from yesterday:

As you already know there is no unified “answer” among Protestants, this allows people to claim the Church fell away while not having to back up their claims.

 

[MrStain]

That is far from the true. The Catholic Church was first recorded in St. Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans. In that Apostolic Letter, he wrote;

Chapter 8:

**See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ ****is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

This is was written in 110 AD. I think Church Militant pointed out that in the Greek word, the word Catholic can also be found in Acts. I forgot which chapter or verse.

The Catholic Church also trace its history to St. Peter, who Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom too. Jesus founded the Catholic Church not mere human beings.

I believe Church Militant may have been referring to Romans 1:8. In greek the latter half of the verse is "kataggelletai en holo to kosmo " The kata & holo part eventually became Catholic.

 

[Atreyu]

I believe Church Militant may have been referring to Romans 1:8. In greek the latter half of the verse is "kataggelletai en holo to kosmo " The kata & holo part eventually became Catholic.

No he was referring to Acts 9:31. Here is CM’s post. This verse speaks of ekklesia kath olos, the “church throughout all”, or the Catholic Church.

 

[Contarini]

Goodness, can we at least agree on this? If the Catholic Church is a man-made tradition, can someone at least tell me when the Catholic Church over-hauled the True Church?

You won’t get anywhere with that kind of language. The Catholic Church, we all agree, is the one True Church. We differ on how to define it.

If you want to talk a language that traditional, theologically educated Protestants can understand, you should ask us: at what point were there first members of the Catholic Church who were not in communion with Rome?

For myself, I’m no longer sure that there has ever been a time when the Catholic Church as defined in the Creeds has enjoyed full visible unity.

Or you could ask: at what point did the Church in communion with Rome first embrace doctrinal or liturgical or moral error? I think most Protestants would agree with me in answering that there was never a time when the Church was totally free from error. The Scriptures are free from error, but the Church of the Apostles’ time was not.

Edwin

 

[NotWorthy]

You won’t get anywhere with that kind of language. The Catholic Church, we all agree, is the one True Church. We differ on how to define it.

Your words do not seem to match Metro’s or numerous others who have made the insane accusation. My Church of Christ friend tells me 350Ad. I show him where the Church taught something before this, and he just moves the date back. He finally has conceded that the Church went into apostasy in the first century.

His sentiments seem to echo numerous others - yours seems to be the exception.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Your words do not seem to match Metro’s or numerous others who have made the insane accusation. My Church of Christ friend tells me 350Ad. I show him where the Church taught something before this, and he just moves the date back. He finally has conceded that the Church went into apostasy in the first century.

His sentiments seem to echo numerous others - yours seems to be the exception.

I noticed Protestants cannot agree when the Catholic Church started. History however, proves them wrong. Most historical books I read concerning Christianity has its beginning with Jesus Christ, and he established a Church. The Church had five patriarchiates, Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople, and Antioch, and in 1054, the Christian Church split into Western Church (Catholic Church) and Eastern Church (Eastern Orthodox). The Western Church had its residency in Rome. The Eastern Church had its basis in Constantinople. This is the unbias info I got from a generic history book.

 

[MrStain]

No he was referring to Acts 9:31. Here is CM’s post. This verse speaks of ekklesia kath olos, the “church throughout all”, or the Catholic Church.

Thanks! That is another one I’ll have to remember points to the development of the term Catholic.

 

[Contarini]

Your words do not seem to match Metro’s or numerous others who have made the insane accusation. My Church of Christ friend tells me 350Ad. I show him where the Church taught something before this, and he just moves the date back. He finally has conceded that the Church went into apostasy in the first century.

His sentiments seem to echo numerous others - yours seems to be the exception.

I don’t know who Metro is. But the Church of Christ generally denies being Protestant. Of course they are historically Protestant, but the point is that they take a “Restorationist” position that is far more radical than that of historic Protestantism. Catholics encounter these and other radical primitivist positions and confuse them with traditional Protestantism.

If you address a thread to “Protestants,” it’s natural to assume that you want a mainstream Protestant perspective, not that of the numerous hordes of radicals who generally deny being Protestant anyway (however ahistorical this denial may be).

More moderate Protestants are less vocal on these boards because they don’t feel the same compulsion to attack Catholicism. But Steadfast and OSLuke would back me up, I think (I know OSLuke would).

Edwin

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t know who Metro is. But the Church of Christ generally denies being Protestant. Of course they are historically Protestant, but the point is that they take a “Restorationist” position that is far more radical than that of historic Protestantism. Catholics encounter these and other radical primitivist positions and confuse them with traditional Protestantism.

I wasn’t aware that Metro is Church of Christ either. I’m just saying that his claim, although the dates flutter, is quite common.

In regards to lumping all Protestants together, I realize it’s like herding cats!!! Hence, I try not to do that. My apologies for you thinking that I was.

If you address a thread to “Protestants,” it’s natural to assume that you want a mainstream Protestant perspective, not that of the numerous hordes of radicals who generally deny being Protestant anyway (however ahistorical this denial may be).

And I was. To those who think the Catholic Church went off the rails (and there have been numerous ones on these forums, or else I wouldn’t have posted this thread, for goodness sake!), I would love their opinion. To those who have a more grounded historical perspective like you, Edwin, I welcome your views. The point of the thread was to reveal how ridiculous the claim, especially since no one can agree when this “event” happened.

More moderate Protestants are less vocal on these boards because they don’t feel the same compulsion to attack Catholicism. But Steadfast and OSLuke would back me up, I think (I know OSLuke would).

Edwin

No problem. If this thread doesn’t interest them, then they are welcome to pass it up. Or they can join in. The more the merrier!!!

 

[Jaguar]

On another website board, many protestants insisted that Constantine, started the Catholic Church. Of course, they didn’t want to believe that “Constantine’s pagan Church” would have had to be the one that was responsible for their New Testament, in proclaiming which books were to be canonized, and which would not.

I have found that many have no real interest in factual church history. For many, it takes a lot of courage to leave their safety zone, and really search for the truth, with a clear and open conscience!

 

[Mannyfit75]

On another website board, many protestants insisted that Constantine, started the Catholic Church. Of course, they didn’t want to believe that “Constantine’s pagan Church” would have had to be the one that was responsible for their New Testament, in proclaiming which books were to be canonized, and which would not.

I have found that many have no real interest in factual church history. For many, it takes a lot of courage to leave their safety zone, and really search for the truth, with a clear and open conscience!

I hard that story from a baptist… Boy their history is so distorted…with false premise… and facts…

 

[Contarini]

I hard that story from a baptist… Boy their history is so distorted…with false premise… and facts…

Not all Baptists. There are a number of scholarly Baptists who know quite well that this sort of Baptist “history” is silly, and say so: Leon McBeth, Timothy George, D. H. Williams, or my old friend Scott McGinnis, just to name a few.

Most “rank and file” members of any church have pretty confused ideas about church history. One reason these ideas are so prominent among Baptists is that Baptists put a lot of stress on what ordinary people believe, and don’t give a high place to either clerical or scholarly authority. So these half-baked ideas play a much bigger role among Baptists than among either Catholics or more traditional Protestants.

Edwin

 

[ronyodish]

On another website board, many protestants insisted that Constantine, started the Catholic Church.

lol, this is funny!

I take it that these Protestants have never heard of our Catholic Church of the East, located in east of the Euphrates river in modern day Iraq, Iran, and further east.

We Catholic Christians were in full communion with our Catholic brethren in the Roman empire, but we ourselves were not in the Roman empire, and Constantine was not our emperor. We were in the Persian empire.

If Constantine started the Catholic Church, then it would have been surprising for us to find out that our Church was founded by a foreign emperor

Here is the Roman empire during the time of Diocletian and Constantine. It does not cover the Catholic Church of the East.

http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/roman-empire-under-diocletian-and-constantine.jpg

God bless,

Rony

 

[MarcoPolo]

I read this on a post from yesterday:

Hey NotWorthy, the A.D. 606 theory is fairly specious. We had a thread last fall on this. I kind of summarized all the holes in it in post 27.